[birdwizard]

How about everyone that bought the product new over 2 years ago gets

free SOCS and a free Mic useage?

[Craig Chase]

Personally, I am not after anything at all. I have worn the losses and moved on. I am disappointed that PT let things go on for so many years without stepping in to do the right thing by their customers. Would I buy from PT again? Tough question. I harbour no malice toward PT and am not on an emotional trip here whereby I curse and swear and blacklist them. However, I guess it is fair to say that I certainly wouldn't rely on any information from them in future on products or important options that are not 1 ...

DSK ... First, Air Conditioning is standard on every BMW ... which is why I said your analogy does not work (and used your word ... ridiculous). Second, PT subcontracted for the software being developed for SOCS, just as BMW did with the navigation system, thus it is a VERY good analogy. BMW REALLY thought this system would be forthcoming ... but the software never made it to my car. And I had PAID for the complete system, so this analogy was actually more severe than what happened with PT.

What did I ask for ? Simple, as I paid $1900 for the option, I asked for this to be returned in the form of trade value. The dealer did so, WITH the help of BMW, and everyone was happy. If ALL I did was complain about my anger/disappointment/frustration ... no solution would have happened.

You seemed to be miffed that I quoted you in the "silent majority" phrase. So you respond by calling me the self-appointed PT advocate. I have done one thing, repeatedly asked those who are complaining what they want to make them happy ??? That does not make me an advocate... just a humble attempt at opening a dialogue to solve this.

The software people did not deliver on the upgrade when they thought they could ... we ALL understand that. You, as the consumer, have two choices ... Ask for some help (from PT) in getting back some of the value of the product you purchased, or continue to feel wronged.

[mlschifter]

Good Evening...

Just so it's known I am in fact monitoring this thread... and I sincerely appreciate the analogies and time invested to make some very valid points...

I've written our partners about this thread and in fact we are going to formulate a reply in kind... Delivering late is bad enough, and perhaps I need to re-think some of *my* thought proceeses in the form of an amends in the future...

I sincerely have not heard much about P-1A / SOCS delivery issues as the years have ticked by... I do my dead-level best to reply when asked about our progress, etc. I only recently sort of shut that down after 2004 CES...

We're not done with this... and I hope to be able to do my best to please everyone involved... I've REALLY felt that in the past I have done that... I'm not trying to beat "my dead horse"... but we're still here, I'm still here... and I will not run from any of my responsibilities...

Many of you know that after we sold Audio Alchemy (biggest mistake I ever made) and the new owners were "found out" (they BK'd 8 well known companies along the way) I STILL reached into my pocket (even though I left my own company after I "found them out") and repaired broken AA gear for YEARS... Dusty Vawter actually started his company modifying AA gear and fixing it... By my own records I paid out over 70K dollars to fix folks products some 5 years AFTER I had left... and some 3 years after they closed the doors... I state this not to receive ANY pats on the back... just to say clearly... I live up to my responsibilities... Always have... Always will...

Thanks again ---

mls

[Buzz38]

Sometimes even though we are speaking the same language we seem to not to be able comprehend the other person.  My wife clearly understands that last sentance.  (I think)  The analogies are all fine and dandy, but this subject isn't really that hard to understand.  There are people who bought a product believing (or expecting) it would deliver more in a "given" amount of time.  Even MLS agrees too much time has passed delivering the more for this product.  The question at hand is what can be done to make everyone as happy as possible?  It seems to me that better late then never, Mark is at the table trying to come up with something for all of you.  Why not get in on it and try to help make something good come out of it.  Does it make anyone feel better to just sit back and say "I feel I got screwed and don't care to do anything about it but bitch"?  Knowing what I do about Mark I would bet that anyone that comes to him reasonably will be taken care of not only with this but always.  Good luck to all of you.  (You too Mark   )

[Rich Carlson]

Rich ... Then answer the question ... WHAT would make people happy ? What do you guys want ?

I don't "want" anything, and I certainly don't intend to demean the intentions or efforts of MLS and others at PT -- just saying that I understand and to a larget extent share DSK's frustration.  I've owned and enjoyed at least 7 or 8 pieces of Audio Alchemy and PT gear over the years.   If I had a complaint that I thought PT had a responsibility to resolve, I'd go to them directly.

[Craig Chase]

Rich ... Then answer the question ... WHAT would make people happy ? What do you guys want ?

I don't "want" anything, and I certainly don't intend to demean the intentions or efforts of MLS and others at PT -- just saying that I understand and to a larget extent share DSK's frustration.  I've owned and enjoyed at least 7 or 8 pieces of Audio Alchemy and PT gear over the years.   If I had a complaint that I thought PT had a responsibility to resolve, I'd go to them directly.

Rich ... We are cool, your answer is actually the third option, but I was not going to post that, as it would be putting you into a bind.

I also understand a certain level of frustration ... but please remember this topic started with Cab suggesting PT was supposed to include the software as a part of P-1A, which was not a true statement, nor intent.

I am pretty sure MLS will offer a fair solution in the near future, and hopefully everyone is made "happy" ... One thing many consumers do not understand, but business owners really DO want "happy" customers...  

[rmassey]

I certainly have sympathy for the personal issues that the SOCS programmer has had to deal with. However, there comes a point in time where, for the credibility of the company, you bring in another programmer or make amends to your customers (eg. recall or partial refunds etc).

This is an interesting point.  I have worked on many software projects, large and small. At a certain point in the delays of  product development, management must make a judgement call and balance personal loyalities to key staff and responsibilities to customers and product expectations, along with marketing concerns.   None of us outsiders know the details of this particular software development effort, but it is certainly resonable for PT customers with the expectation of delivery of SOCS to also expect that another programmer be considered to acheive project milestones within an acceptable timeframe.  With the information provided so far, it appears that this avenue was not persued with enough consideration towards PT customers.

DSK, FWIW I think you stated a very valid argument to discribe the problem and concerns of PT customers regarding SOCS.  

...and FYI,  I own a PT combo with SOCS for 750s and Rocket 750s.  It is truely an amazing and wonderful package.  It is unfortunate that other PT customers cannot (yet) experience SOCS in their own systems due to the various circumstances.

[DRL]

Rmassey--
It's also very likely in a case like this (specialized application, cutting-edge product, etc.) that it would make no sense at all for PT to attempt to turn the project over to someone other than the original programmer.  We'll probably never know for sure all the details (I'd rather not anyway), but I trust MLS and PT to have made the right decisions at the time.

[Bob Wilcox]

mschifter stated:

By the way… In ALL of these years I have been asked for a refund 3 times. In each case I was able to work out an adequate trade of av123 goods for each individual.
Craig

Mark

You offered me a refund on my unit and I eventually accepted it - it was for USD refunded to my card - not for other goods. But I guess your statement is technically correct because the refund was your suggestion.

Craig stated

BOTH parties want a solution. So ... What would be a fair solution ?

This is the question...The competition has not stood still. If customers were starting from scratch, they might well choose a competing product. Perhaps buying back the unit or free upgrading at the owners option would be fair  There should be some cut-off with respect to purchase date. After all, a little internet due-diligence by recent buyers would provide plenty of hints that SOCS was very delayed. But so is the room correction software...

Some do not seem to be bothered by the delay and should ask for nothing...

Bob

[mlschifter]

mschifter stated: This is the question...The competition has not stood still. If customers were starting from scratch, they might well choose a competing product. Perhaps buying back the unit or free upgrading at the owners option would be fair  There should be some cut-off with respect to purchase date. After all, a little internet due-diligence by recent buyers would provide plenty of hints that SOCS was very delayed. But so is the room correction software...

Some do not seem to be bothered by the delay and should ask for nothing...

Bob

Hello Bob...

You are in fact 101% correct here... and YES... you were in fact one of the three that I'm aware of...

I'd like to one day come back to you and ask you to try our products... I know you are a savvy listener and your interest was high... I wonder if you are still using the same speakers?

I'm still ill with this flu-bug... but Rich Hollis IS heading this way soon to finalize all the new measurement techiques for publication... You'd find it fascinating (I do believe)... with the new versios of Cool Edit Pro (Now an Adobe product --- I think the name is Audition) and the Aurora Plug Ins from Italy we at last have the measurement portion down nicely to complement Keith's final code on the correction side...

Thanks for your reply...

Humbly...

mls

[Bob Wilcox]

Yes Mark - new speakers. I use RM-40s now.

I have lost all interest in SOCS and doubt I will ever regain it.

I took notice of your statement suggesting that all refunds were some type of exchange for goods which I knew was not true in my case.

Bob

[mlschifter]

Yes Mark - new speakers. I use RM-40s now.

I have lost all interest in SOCS and doubt I will ever regain it.

I took notice of your statement suggesting that all refunds were some type of exchange for goods which I knew was not true in my case.

Bob

Noted...

I actually understood from old Jon Lane notes that you actually were in our system for goods...

I can see that that is in fact... false...

Too bad about SOCS... I can wish and hope for you...

The RM40 is a wonderful speaker and we are looking forward to installing SOCS for Marbles...

Respectfully...

mls

[Marbles]

The RM40 is a wonderful speaker and we are looking forward to installing SOCS for Marbles...

and Marbles is looking forward to it too...

[Marbles]

Just to add a bit more to this thread, due to Mark having some personal problems, he has been unable to make it out to measure.

He graciously offered to send the MMK so I could take the measurements.

The instructions are very straight foreward with one minor thing.

It has instructions on exactly where to place the mic for ports, and for drones (passives), but with the down firing, but front ported passive, I wasn't clear where to put the mic.

The solution was to find someone close to him that had a pair of RM40's that also had the midwoofer upgrade.

As luck would have it, Tyson lives in his town and has the upgrade, so Tyson will get his speakers measured and then Mark will get me the SOCS.

With luck, this should happen in the near future.

[mlschifter]

Just to add a bit more to this thread, due to Mark having some personal problems, he has been unable to make it out to measure.

He graciously offered to send the MMK so I could take the measurements.

The instructions are very straight foreward with one minor thing.

It has instructions on exactly where to place the mic for ports, and for drones (passives), but with the down firing, but front ported passive, I wasn't clear where to put the mic.

The solution was to find someone close to him that ha ...

Thanks Marbles...

I appreciate your posting this... and to be clear... my problems center around some serious issues I'm having with my heart...

Your kindness has been so sincerely appreciated...

There are many posts on our forum now about people hearing the final version of SOCS playing on several speakers... We are all so excited about this moment in the day...  

I have also placed on my Up List your question about the microphone placement for the issue in question... RH and KA will weigh in on this...

Many many thanks...

Mark

[BradJudy]

Given the tunable nature of the RM40s (and other VMPS speakers), doesn't SOCS measurement have to be done on a particular pair of speakers rather than having a measurement that works for everyone?  

I guess if the L-pads don't impact phase and timing, those components will be consistent and it will just be the magnitude adjustments that will vary.

[Marbles]

Here you go Mark,

A song to cheer you up by Little Charlie and the Nightcats



Don’t do it

 

Hey I was under the weather and I wasn’t getting better so I went to get a physical check

And when I went to the doc it was a heck of a shock, he told me boy you are a miserable wreck.

He said your liver’s all swollen and your stomach’s got a hole in it from drinkin too much for too long.

And there’s a good indication you’ve got bad circulation cause your blood pressure almost gone

 

And you got no reflexes in your solar plexus when I tap you on the top of your knee.

He said your pulse ain’t steady and your lungs getting ready to collapse every time that you breathe.

And at the rate you’re goin all the tests are showin; boy you’ll never live to get old.

But I came up with a plan to make you healthy again, but boy you gotta do what you’re told.

 

That’s when he told me

 

Chorus

 

If you dig it don’t do it

And if you like it better leave it alone

And if it’s too much fun that outta clue you son

That you’re probably doing something that wrong

And I’m surprised at you and all the things you do

Boy cause that ain’t what your body is for

And if you think its bad so far wait til’ after this guitar

Cause the doctor said a whole lot more

 

Solo

 

He told me cut out your boozing, quit them drugs you been using and don’t be smoking no cigarettes.

And you know lovin a stranger nowadays boy, man is just like playin Russian roulette.

And get the grease out your diet, better broil it don’t fry it and don’t you eat no more Bar-B-Que.

I wouldn’t tell you no lie, take this rule and apply.  Now, son listen to what you better do.

 

Chorus

 

If you dig it don’t do it

And if you like it better leave it alone

And if it’s too much fun that outta clue you son

That you’re probably doing something that wrong

And if it’s too good to you well don’t let it fool you

Cause you’re playin in the danger zone

And I kept waitin and waitin for the man to finish, but the sucker just went on and on.

 

Solo

 

And then he told me cut out all sweets and don’t be cramping your feet in them pointed-toe Italian shoes.

And he said boy lookie here you gonna damage your ears playin them loud rockin rhythm and blues.

And if a rabbit don’t eat it buddy you don’t need it, that’s the rules on your new menu

You better get you a pen I ain’t gonna say it again cause there’s a whole lot more that you need to do.

You need to lose some weight; you need to stand up straight, boy your posture is a terrible disgrace.

You need to suck in your gut; you need to tuck in your butt; you need to clear them zits up off of your face.

 

Chorus

 

If you dig it don’t do it

And if you like it better leave it alone

And if it’s too much fun that outta clue you son

That you’re probably doing something that wrong

And if it’s too good to you well don’t let it fool you

Cause you’re playin in the danger zone

And I kept waitin and waitin for the man to finish, but the sucker just went on and on….. on and on…. and on…..and on….. and on.

[Marbles]

Last month, Mark made email contact with Tyson and requested his phone #, and almost immeadiately got it.  Then did nothing....

Then two weeks ago I got an email from Mark asking me if I was selling my RM40's.

I assured him I was, but I would like the new speakers measured.  I told him about the Salk Sound HT3 speakers and how Jim Salk is a recording engineer and that I was sure he could do a very good job measuring the speakers with the MMK.

Mark agreed.

Someone from AV123 did contact Jim, only to tell him that there were no MMK units available.      

I don't want to speculate on why Mark or someone from AV123 can't or wont measure my speakers after offering to.  I don't know why they didn't measure Tyson's speakers, when he lives in their city either.

Maybe Mark or someone at AV123 can shed some light on this?

[Rick Craig]

Last month, Mark made email contact with Tyson and requested his phone #, and almost immeadiately got it.  Then did nothing....

Then two weeks ago I got an email from Mark asking me if I was selling my RM40's.

I assured him I was, but I would like the new speakers measured.  I told him about the Salk Sound HT3 speakers and how Jim Salk is a recording engineer and that I was sure he could do a very good job measuring the speakers with the MMK.

Mark agreed.

Someone from AV123 did contact Jim, only ...

Even if Tyson had his speakers measured it wouldn't help you that much with your pair. The different mass loadings with the passive radiator would call for more than one type of tuning and each listening room would need its' own specific mode correction.

Applying EQ to passive radiator or ported systems can also create other problems because the woofer(s) can easily be bottomed out if you don't use the right frequency and amount of boost.

[Marbles]

Rick, the point is that Mark has repeatedly offered to do something only to have it put off time and time again...

The point about the room is incorrect as the speakers are measured in EXTREMELY close proximaty to the drivers and ports taking the room out of the equation (supposedly).  This is a speaker correction only software.

Room correction software will be released in the near future