[warnerwh]

I'm glad I asked. This whole thing sounds pretty iffy. You can get a Tact 2.0 with both A/d and D/a for 1500 with a warranty from Tact. Also used 2.2's are going for little enough that selling my ARC pre is seeming like the best way to go.  From what I've gathered from George and Ekovalsky who's opinions I respect it sounds like these DSP engines like DEQX and Tact are absolutely wonderful.  I'm full aware of what frequency response variation can do to the sound and it's MAJOR.  Just having a dedicated and treated room is leaps above the room at my other house.

[Craig Chase]

Might I add that that is also in typical Shifter fashion- lots of marketing hype and no product...Anyone remember Perpertual Technologies? Bought my P-3, what, 4 years ago (?), with great promises of room and speaker correction software "to be released any minute now"...Been hearing this "almost ready" story now for so long, it is almost funny...I would advise anyone considering buying anything from Mr. Shifter to wait until the goods are actually shipping with ALL COMPONENTS AND SOFTWARE before buying anything on a promise. His word is worthless....

Did you purchase a P-1 or P-3 ?

[suits_me]

I thought Apple's "Performa" series was a worse name than "Emotiva", but the fact is they both seem pretty bad to me. Gotta love that Ref 1 and cheap tube integrated deal, though.

[Rob Babcock]

"iPod" is a pretty gay name, too.  So is "Apple" for that matter.  Where'd they get that name?  Naming the company for a fruit?

[Zero]

I do not know Mark on a personal basis. He is not a drinking buddy, nor do I communicate with him via: phone or E-mail.  I own 2 of the Rocket products and every time the service has lived up to its brilliant reputation, as had the products themselves.

Everyone screws up, whether you a big-shot for a major global label, or a smaller operation like av123/onix. Mark screwed up.  He jumped the gun and jumped in the water before wading through first.  Selling a product that is incomplete with failed promises (not to mention after four years) with no delivery is simply unacceptable. Your frustrations are well warranted and I do not believe anyone will take that from you.

However, you have gone beyond venting your frustrations of the transaction and experience with the business and have un-justly touted Marks reputation as being un-credible. I may not know this man personally, however, I have seen him do far more for his customers than many others would concieve.  Do you know something about this man I do not? Does he beat his wife / leave underwear on the floor / avoid bill collectors? As far as I know, his credibility is solid and well deserved.

Did you attempt to contact Mark personally to remedy the situation? What steps have you taken with av123? While you may feel such a course of action is not necessary ( And I wouldnt disagree ), but if you made little effort to express your dis-satisfaction - how are they to know of its existance?

I've said enough - and hopefully it all made some kind of sense.  It was a long work-day today.  All Sundays are like that anymore.

[TheChairGuy]

Certain incendiary posts have been removed from this topic.

Let's keep to audio folks and leave the off-course remarks elsewhere.

Thanks,

Moderator Audio Central

[thayerg]

Adam--Google 'evar'. Click on, oh, I dunno, the first reference.

Love it that you're taking the time to help people with their spelling though.

In truth I think the gaggle of brands doing business under the av123 name is a joke. It isn't particularly cheap, it isn't particularly attractive, and it certainly isn't particularly good.  Take the PT DAC. I figure that any piece of equipment which one can substantially improve just by replacing the power supply is badly engineered period. And the whole premise of doing sophistcated room and speaker eq just to send the signal back through the passive crossover is bad design. Not, of course, that PT ever fullfilled that little product announcement anyway.

[jackman]

Hey guys, I think Mark is taking an undeserved beating on this thread.  He's an honest guy who bends over backwards for his customers.  Is SOCS a total success?  Maybe not but I give Mark credit for having the ambition to try to stretch the bounds of technology long before any other companies were doing it.  I have never heard of any instance of Mark being dishonest with a customer in any way.  

We all have our individual preferences in gear but this goes beyond that.  People are questioning the character of someone who I know to be a good and honest man, and I have to go on the record to say I think that's wrong.  If he sold something to people that he knew wouldn't work, that would be a different story.  Trying to get a product to market as revolutionary and ahead of its time as SOCS and his room correction software is highly ambitious.   I have heard beta versions on Rocket speakers and Ref's and have heard the benefits.  

Just my .10.  Thanks!  

Jack

PS-I'm usually on the "giving shots" side of the fence but I have to vote with my conscience.  It doesn't sit well with me to see Mark receive undeserved shot.   Mark has done a lot of good things for audio and internet direct sales.  I have met him on a couple occasions and have found him to be a real gentleman.

[cab]

I can understand people sticking up for Mr. Schifter and vouching for his character. I am sure all who have done so have received great customer service and are thrilled with whatever product they purchased from him.

I have not accused him of killing babies, being a racist, or a terrorist. I have simply said that he is a poor business man in my opinion, based on the release 5 years ago of a product advertised as a "digital correction engine" that to date, for 99% of its owners, is not a "digital correction engine". All we have gotten from his company for the past 5 years is excuses and promises that release is "imminent". By any measure, this is unacceptable. By all indications he has been genuine in his attempts to bring the supporting software to market, so I wouldn't call it criminal at this point, but time will tell, and the clock is ticking...and ticking, and ticking...

I have said he has no credibility in my mind, and again, after 5 years and countless unfulfilled promises, I think I am entitled to that opinion. How many times can you hear "just a little longer" and remain optimistic?

Here's another promise that, as far as I know, has also gone by the wayside: 192 sample support for the P-3...Neither of these products has been upgraded since their inception 5 years ago...

Meanwhile, Mr. Schifter has been developing all sorts of new and different products, the latest is apparantly the R-DES, which is, can you believe it, a correction engine for subwoofers...Maybe this is how companies function today, but personally, if it was me, I wouldn't be working on anything, nevermind releasing new products, that would take resources away from completion of the P-1. In light of this, I beleive any prudent person would start questioning his commitment and sincerity in finishing the P-1...

Personally, however, I don't care how sincere his efforts have been and how many problems andn difficulties he has faced; after 5 years, enough is enough. Again, the right thing to do would be to recall the product, and pay a refund. Not a "credit", etc., but a refund for a product that does not perform per its name....That is simply doing the right thing. If this thing is ever finished, and the whole world wants one, as people here seem to think will be the case, then he will have a ready resell market. I do not wish to wait any longer.

As others have correctly noted, at present, with several other options available, it does indeed seem long in the tooth. And the whole concept of limiting users to 3 curves without additional payment, renting a measurement kit, etc. is an awfully awkward, clumsy, and inelegant business model, in view of what is available now...If I was looking to get into room and speaker correction, and I think it is the future, I wouldn't even consider the Perpetual Technologies products; there are other options that are much slicker, better supported, and best of all, do what they are suppose to NOW without a single excuse.

[rosconey]

five years of excuses   i sure as hell wouldnt be a happy camper either.
but remember the term vaporware was developed for a reason    

it takes a leap of faith to believe anyone in audio anyway ,but this is plain wrong-mls should offer a refund if the product was sold as being useable in the near future,5 years isnt anyplace around near future.
i also think the renting of somethings so you can do the setup is lame as is the 3 times part.heck my system has moved that many times in the last year.

 like the first digtal watches-ski hi price at first with cheap versions very soon after.in 3 years or less prices will be a few hundred at most and be better than the stuff now .

[mlschifter]

Good Morning…

I apologize for being really quite unable to reply to this thread earlier. I’m just back home after a week out on the road and with it, one he!! of a flu-bug.

I’ve carefully read this thread and the one on our forum about this as well. I very much appreciate the views expressed, and I would like to offer a bit of a reply, and a larger-scale view on what I’ve faced with respect to the SOCS / ROCS delivery (or more accurately, non-delivery) issue.

I guess the best thing to do is to jump directly to cab’s well understood (and deserved comments) with respect to the P-Tech P-1A software program for Speaker / Room Correction… To be frank, of course I deserve every bit of his unhappiness with me, my company and it’s ability to deliver on its promises. The simple fact is we are almost 5 years late with these promised program enhancements.

To be equally fair… I think I need to point out that the P-1A is one heck of a fine product in its “native state” as a Digital Correction Engine. The Interpolation function of the P-1A works superbly, and in the mind of many… is equal to or better than the very fine dCS product we hold as our reference in this area. I personally know of more than 3 dozen P-1A’s used in Studios and Mastering facilities around the world. We are credited as such on scores of CD’s (particularly those Mastering in Japan at Pioneer and other Studios). I can also tell you that as of September of last year that better than 40 reviewers around the world are STILL using the P-1A, P-3A or both as their reference every day… I know this as we asked back ALL of these P-1A’s to ready our company and these reviewers for the roll out of our SOCS program.

While my skills as a communicator can really be called into question here, the simple fact is we have continued to invest Time… Money and Energy in this program and, as several of you know… we have “soft-launched” SOCS several weeks ago. I guess I will break some rules and go further here… My wife and I had invested 725K dollars in Perpetual Technologies over the last 4 years, and with SOCS becoming a reality a few short months ago, we invested an additional 80K dollars to ready the company for our roll out. During the (same) first four years my partners Walter Liederman and Ceto Sandoval invested an additional (just over) 400K dollars in P-Tech as well. We never/ever let go of the dream we shared for this product. Not now… not ever…

You might want to ask yourself the same question I had to ask MYSELF each and every day during these times… What happened? WHY has it taken so long… and why have I been so quiet about this… The answers are not simple or easy ones… I’ll do my best with limited time and space here.

The OS for the P-1A and the Coefficient Generator itself represents something well past 150,000 lines of custom code. One man has done ALL of this coding… Keith Allsop. No one feels worse about all of this than Keith. Without getting into details that I’m not at liberty to discuss I’ll only say this… Keith has been through some of the worst VERY personal tragedies imaginable during these last 4 years… I’m talking REALLY severe and very bad stuff that would have made a lesser man fall. He has stood up to Life and Death in a way that I’m not sure (even) I could have survived. Keith is my friend first… and my Engineer second. I’ve taken loads of heat for this (well deserved) here and on my own forums at av123. I’ve never been more proud of ANY product, or service I’ve been associated with. NEVER.

Keith came to CES a few short weeks ago to meet with and discuss the P-1A and SOCS release with several magazine guys… We played the P-1A with SOCS for our ONIX REF 1LE’s --- Live and in the flesh. It was a nice moment for Keith, Peter Madnick, and all of us associated with this product. As low-key as I attempted to make it --- it was still something special for me as well… Really quite emotional. Several of you… Adam, Buzz3 etc. knew it meant the world to me. I knew you could tell…

This coming Friday, Rich Hollis from Hollis Audio Labs will be my houseguest here to go over the final form of the measurement system we will use to generate ALL of the files for building new Correction Sets… I guess in one way… I’m actually glad that cab got angry and allowed his gut to spill over. While I do have some issues with a few things this person has said about me on a personal/professional level… I cannot fault him one little bit about being angry with me and less than thrilled with his investment in our P-1A… I’ll take this moment to say that this is the ONE and ONLY product I’ve EVER been associated with that I did not deliver “the goods” as promised. You can go as far back as my mcp-2 / mas-1 headamps I made when I was in my teens… to NOW… I have ALWAYS delivered on my word… I can point to some pretty sophisticated products we built at Electro Research, Audio Alchemy, Perpetual and now, av123 and it’s umbrella brands… I have always delivered… Sometimes late… but I’ve always come though… and been in complete service of our brands and ultimately --- YOU!

Cab… I do not know who you are… but I have always returned ANY e-mails I have received about these products, or any other I’ve been associated with. Had you contacted me I would have replied in earnest… even if it had to be words that might have been hard to say for me… No different now… I’m here, and I welcome your feedback to mlsav123@mac.com or you are welcome to phone me at 720.244.0727 (my GSM mobile)… I live in China and Russia 9 months of the year… but that phone finds me wherever I am… and I would welcome a call to apologize to you “in person”…

Further… why don’t you allow me to demonstrate that our SOCS release is a welcome reality? If you can tell me more about your system etc., I will comp the use of our MMK (mobile measurement kit) and build your Correction Sets (you may or many not know that we deliver 9 curves with SOCS now) at no charge at all… My only caveat is that you report back to this group what you hear… Good or Bad… I have nothing to worry about at all… The P-1A is STILL the most powerful “Correction Engine” of its type… I know what this product can deliver in the Frequency AND Phase domains… and with its 1100mS apertures (available as needed) it can really work wonders --- as advertised.

So… perhaps some of you might think this is all a large dose of hyperbole… Lets let some of the real experts judge… I know for a fact that I trust Mad Dog and others here… Several have heard this product perform with all the recent code enhancements etc. The P-1A will deliver the goods in a real and measurable way… and I feel certain in saying here and now that MANY an expert will be commenting on this in the future. Judging from what I heard at CES from many (many) folks… the P-1A and its SOCS program has arrived --- albeit very very late. As for your comment Marbles I would Thank Christ if you humbled yourself a bit and tried it also… The same offer goes out to you, as I’ve always respected what you’ve had to say here at The Circle… Lets see what you think once you’ve heard this also…

With respect to my own credibility --- perhaps I’ll let history be my judge as I step off the pulpit for a moment. I know the buck stops at my desk… I’m the Founder and the President of P-Tech and the anger is properly and well directed at me… I’ve been busy with my businesses in Russia and China and frankly I’ve done a poor job (being generous with myself) about communicating the good news about P-Tech and SOCS… Why… because like all of you this had to be proven to me also… I’m satisfied… so I’m here sticking my neck out for all of you to see.

This has been a 10 year journey for me, my partners and the Engineers involved. With Keith, Rich Hollis, Bascom King, Dick Pierce and Peter Madnick… all of us have waited a long time for this day. Cab, I hope you step up and call me to task (you too Marbles)… I’m ready, willing and able to deliver on that promise to you…

By the way… In ALL of these years I have been asked for a refund 3 times. In each case I was able to work out an adequate trade of av123 goods for each individual. The “bank” has not been broken here, and in fact, av123 / Rocket Loudspeakers just reported 40% increase in sales year over year for 2004. Our model seems to be working… and our ability to deliver honest, reliable and super high value products has never been better. Our new factory in China has been open for 11 months now and we are building some mighty fine enclosures for some 15 companies at this moment (more coming on after Chinese New Year) and I’m personally designing some really nice products for several of these brands. I’m busy for sure… but I also know I MUST stop and Put Up here and now about our P-1A and SOCS… I’m prepared to do just that…

Please do let me know how I may serve you…

Humbly…

mls

[mlschifter]

five years of excuses   i sure as hell wouldnt be a happy camper either.
but remember the term vaporware was developed for a reason    

it takes a leap of faith to believe anyone in audio anyway ,but this is plain wrong-mls should offer a refund if the product was sold as being useable in the near future,5 years isnt anyplace around near future.
i also think the renting of somethings so you can do the setup is lame as is the 3 times part.heck my system has moved that many times ...

We'll see how much vapor this is ---  

Systems change (you of all people know this rosconey) and in order to digitally correct for anything, one must obtain a digital "snap-shot" first... THEN correct...

A person as sophisticated as you are simply MUST know this...

By the way... The product serves a fine purpose as it sits... (or had you forgotten that)... Digital Interpolation, Jitter Reduction, etc. is as important today as it was 5 years ago...

I find it all so interesting how easy it is for people like you to "sit in judgement"... Vaporware huh? Indeed... Easy does it rosconey... you are too smart to judge something you know little of...

I'm guilty as charged in several areas here... but you know me... and you know my track record... (right)... Lets see what happens now...

All the best...

mls

[mlschifter]

I can understand people sticking up for Mr. Schifter and vouching for his character. I am sure all who have done so have received great customer service and are thrilled with whatever product they purchased from him.

I have not accused him of killing babies, being a racist, or a terrorist. I have simply said that he is a poor business man in my opinion, based on the release 5 years ago of a product advertised as a "digital correction engine" that to date, for 99% of its owners, is not a "digital correcti ...

Good Morning...

Give my reply a read and let me know what you want to do...

I'm cool... and I'm easy... Take some time and share my dream with me...

BTW... R-DES works real well, and I'd be all too happy to allow you to try that one also...

Humbly...

mls

[Marbles]

As for your comment Marbles I would Thank Christ if you humbled yourself a bit and tried it also… The same offer goes out to you, as I’ve always respected what you’ve had to say here at The Circle… Lets see what you think once you’ve heard this also…  ...

Consider me humble.

How do you want me to proceed?

Thanks for your generous offer, it is appreciated.

Speakers are VMPS RM40's w/FST's and TRT's.

Rob

[mlschifter]

As for your comment Marbles I would Thank Christ if you humbled yourself a bit and tried it also… The same offer goes out to you, as I’ve always respected what you’ve had to say here at The Circle… Lets see what you think once you’ve heard this also…  ...

Consider me humble.

How do you want me to proceed?

Thanks for your generous offer, it is appreciated.

Speakers are VMPS RM40's w/FST's and TRT's.

Rob

Hi Rob...

Thanks for your reply...

Please connect with me via e-mail or phone so I can send the MMK to you... Depending on where you are, and my timing to get back to Khabarovsk I might come and measure with you (could be fun... the RM40's are some of my faves as you know)...

I can send the data to Keith or Bascom and with the new Hyper-Threading P4's we've bought (5 of these new babies on order or already installed) we can generate correction sets in about 45 minutes (lots of math) now...

I'm aplogizing for my emotion in advance... but this means a lot to me on a very personal level, and we want to please and satisfy in every way possible with P-1A, etc.

Humbly for sure...

Mark

[TheChairGuy]

With respect to my own credibility --- perhaps I’ll let history be my judge as I step off the pulpit for a moment. I know the buck stops at my desk… I’m the Founder and the President of P-Tech and the anger is properly and well directed at me… I’ve been busy with my businesses in Russia and China and frankly I’ve done a poor job (being generous with myself) about communicating the good news about P-Tech and SOCS… Why… because like all of you this had to be proven to me also… I’m satisfied… so I’m here sticking my neck out for all of you to see.

I have relatively no opinion of your DAC or equalization product(s), but you seem to want history to defend your credibility in this matter and others.

If so, answer this: How did you come upon the name of Revelation Audio for your line of inexpensive, made-in-China copper cables?  www.av123.com

Is there not a line of more expensive, cryo'ed silver, made-in-USA cables marketed by Revelation Audio Labs for two years prior?  www.RevelationAudioLabs.com

The further fact is the names of your inexpensive copper products even mirrors a couple of the biblical names of the original, Revelation Audio Labs. Until you explain your way out of that one Mark, I'm afraid your credibility is really quite damaged goods.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, you may in total have honest intentions in life, but don't throw rocks when you live in a glass house yourself.

[mlschifter]

I have relatively no opinion of your DAC or equalization product(s), but you seem to want history to defend your credibility in this matter and others.

If so, answer this: How did you come upon the name of Revelation Audio for your line of inexpensive, made-in-China copper cables?  www.av123.com

Is there not a line of more expensive, cryo'ed silver, made-in-USA cables marketed by Revelation Audio Labs for two years prior?  www.RevelationAudioLabs.com

The further fact is the names of your ine ...

Thanks for your note...

These cables are not designed or made by us... Revelation is line of cables from an old friend --- Mike Laurino in Agoura Hills, California...

Mike is a Christian --- he also owns DVD Etc. and HDTV Etc. magazines... His religious beliefs and his epxressions of same with these cables and his magazines are HIS CHOICE...

I humbly believe that if you took a moment and searched you'd fiind that Mike has been using that name for better than 15 years now... I could be wrong... perhaps 10 or so... but I'm 99% sure it's well in excess of 15.

I have no fight to pick --- I would NOT have used those names for cables, but as this line does not belong to me I had little choice in the naming...

The other company you've named makes VERY fine products (I've had some nice exposure to them) and we've always been very professional and accomodating to the gentleman that owns that company. He has often been an invited guest at our demo rooms at shows etc.

Hope that answers some of your questions...

All the best...

mls

[mlschifter]

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, you may in total have honest intentions in life, but don't throw rocks when you live in a glass house yourself.

By the way... would you mind enlightening me as a moderator here as to what rocks I might have thrown...

Please give me a hand here...

Respectfully...

mls

[cab]

Thank you Mr. Schifter for your thorough and thoughtful reply. It is much appreciated.

While I agree that the P-1 does do a nice job of upsampling and jitter reduction, this is not what sold me on the product at the original price. The upsampling, for those that own the P-3, is redundant in any case, and as simply a jitter reducer, I, like most others I believe, wouldn't have bought it, at least not at $1000...

The P-1 was advertised as a "digital correction engine". I, as well as just about anyone else who read the marketing copy, associate this term with speaker correction and room correction. I don't consider upsampling "correction". So while I can appreciate your defense of the product on what it actually does do, I find it greatly lacking in light of the capabilities which were the foundation on which it was marketed.

Similarly, I find your offer to comp a measurement rig and set of coefffic ents for SOCS nice, but, to use a popular saying, "a day late and a dollar short"...

When a product can't do what it was marketed to do, i.e., speaker AND room correction, after 5 years, I think it is time to offer to recall the product and offer refunds. Mine has sat in its box for years waiting for the day it can actually do what it was purchased to do. I just do not want to wait any longer. If you wish to resolve this sincerely, please discuss a return and refund. As you do not sell a product I am interested in, I do not believe a credit or trade would serve my needs.

I have chosen to make my reply to you public, rather than call, not in an effort to embarrass, but to keep everything open to all so that there is no misunderstanding or opportunity for misrepresentation.

Again, thank you for your reply.
[/b]

[mlschifter]

Thank you Mr. Schifter for your thorough and thoughtful reply. It is much appreciated.

While I agree that the P-1 does do a nice job of upsampling and jitter reduction, this is not what sold me on the product at the original price. The upsampling, for those that own the P-3, is redundant in any case, and as simply a jitter reducer, I, like most others I believe, wouldn't have bought it, at least not at $1000...

The P-1 was advertised as a "digital correction engine". I, as well as just about an ...

Thanks for your reply cab... No matter what... Please call me Mark... EVERYONE does...  

Allow me to address one point... It's not the Upsampling that makes the P-1A unique (this is a function of hardware only) --- it's the Interpolation Algorithm that makes this little guy fly... The P-1A can (quite for real) Interpolate 16-Bit Digital Data and output a Full and Complete 24-Bits... This is what the Studios and Mastering guys so desire...

That point aside... I still stand ready to prove out the COMPLETE capabilities (in all forms) of what this Digital Correction Engine can do...

If you'd like --- allow me to show you what he can do with SOCS complete and in soft launch for weeks now... I can fully appreciate your anger and frustration with me (even if I disagreed with a few things you've said about me) and now it's time for me to PUT UP...

Are you willing...

Respectfully...

Humbly...

mls