[witchdoctor]

Agree.  Also, what people hear is driven by the speakers / headphones they use for listening - - as well aa the volume they might select  for each listening session.

George

Don't forget the wiring, a pre war apartment building vs a new home for example.

[witchdoctor]

Some people legitimately hear differences in cables.  Some people legitimately don't hear any difference.  No one is going to change camps by discussion.
Can't we just say they are both right and move on??

GREAT point, you need to listen. Some people are here posting about stuff they haven't even tried

[Elizabeth]

But....the ones that have tried different cables/cords/wire and sang their virtues, then took a
ABX test with these cables/cords/wire and realized their was no difference then was like WTF and
researched things like expectation bias and went....oh, now I understand.....
Give me a break....

If you only had the links to show this is not just your imagination? Making such a claim: ""...sang their virtues, then took a(n sic) ABX test with these cables/cords/wire and realized their was no difference....""
I will even say there probably was at least one such test.. the thing is at least one other test (which I also will not post a link to) which shows folks CAN hear a difference.
The point being there are NOT enough tests to actually show anything.. (other than what the person manipulating it to their own point) wants to say.
Plus the consideration that ABX testing does not offer what an audiophile's brain is doing. Fact is, the part of the brain listening to music, is not the part that does yes.no decision making. And then the wine tasting analogy. Common folks do NOT use the same part of their brain in a wine tasting test, as do seasoned pros doing wine tasting. The pro is trained, thier mind is making connections the amateur is not. And thus the analogy would say common folks not trained to do audio ABX cannot be trusted to prove anything.
Thank you.

[timind]

GREAT point, you need to listen. Some people are here posting about stuff they haven't even tried

You've stated this more than once now. Do ya know this for a fact, are you assuming this, or are you just making it up? "Some people" means how many?

[Freo-1]

Some people legitimately hear differences in cables.  Some people legitimately don't hear any difference.  No one is going to change camps by discussion.
Can't we just say they are both right and move on??

Unfortunately, no.  The folks who claim that they hear differences in cables can't provide any reasonable proof of such.  Further, when subjected to double blind testing, they can't tell the difference.


I'm all for healthy discussion and disagreements. After all this hobby is mostly science, with just enough art thrown in to divert attention.  The major point here is that instead of spending major $$$ on wire (9K?), my position is that the cash used to purchase high dollar wire is much better spent on equipment and speakers, where improvements can be both heard and measured.  Everyone wins (except the high dollar cable folks  )


Here is a summary of a previous link posted from  engineer in the cable industry:


"That’s it then. My conclusion is, as long as electrical characteristics of my purchase are on par with “inexpensive and commonly used standard cable akin to those that have been around for decades” then anything else doesn’t buy me any benefit.

[/size][/color]

The wheel has been fully invented. Fortunately the science of copper interconnects has been pretty much 100% understood all the way from DC to tens of gigahertz (where if not the case, I would have tremendous trouble designing my fast digital interfaces). Rather than misleading potential buyers with useless and confusing specs, audio cable manufacturers need only to publish the 3 parameters that are of most interest. But none of them do!"

[Elizabeth]

instead of spending major $$$ on wire (9K?), my position is that the cash used to purchase high dollar wire is much better spent on equipment

Since I am the person who wrote "spent $9K on cables" I can also comment that I agree about: "my position is that the cash used to purchase high dollar wire is much better spent on equipment" ABSOLUTELY TRUE.
The usual suggestion for folks unsure of what to spend on interconnects, cables, power cords.. For those who have no idea the suggestion is spend 10% or less on all your wires (of the total cost of components and speakers).
And for folks who DO NOT own a 'mature'* audio system.. I suggest spending as little as possible on wires. If you want some 'aftermarket' wires, go with the well known budget brands.
* Mature means you now own the best equipment values you will be buying. NO more equipment upgrading for the foreseeable future.
For folks who bought equipment they know they will be upgrading in a few years, or are buying to try it out.. I would say spending a bundle on wires is a mistake at that point.

Unless you know what you actually want.. No point in buying by suggestion of other people you never met, online LOL

[witchdoctor]

You've stated this more than once now. Do ya know this for a fact, are you assuming this, or are you just making it up? "Some people" means how many?

GREAT question, probably the best one in this entire thread, thanks for asking.

"Some people" are the people who posted a negative opinion about power cords and never mentioned one they tried. By my count that is 3 in this thread.

[witchdoctor]

Unfortunately, no.  The folks who claim that they hear differences in cables can't provide any reasonable proof of such.  Further, when subjected to double blind testing, they can't tell the difference.


I'm all for healthy discussion and disagreements. After all this hobby is mostly science, with just enough art thrown in to divert attention.  The major point here is that instead of spending major $$$ on wire (9K?), my position is that the cash used to purchase high dollar wire is much better spent on equipment and speakers, where improvements can be both heard and measured.  Everyone wins (except the high dollar cable folks  )


Here is a summary of a previous link posted from  engineer in the cable industry:


"That’s it then. My conclusion is, as long as electrical characteristics of my purchase are on par with “inexpensive and commonly used standard cable akin to those that have been around for decades” then anything else doesn’t buy me any benefit.

[/size][/color]

The wheel has been fully invented. Fortunately the science of copper interconnects has been pretty much 100% understood all the way from DC to tens of gigahertz (where if not the case, I would have tremendous trouble designing my fast digital interfaces). Rather than misleading potential buyers with useless and confusing specs, audio cable manufacturers need only to publish the 3 parameters that are of most interest. But none of them do!"

Are you not capable of posting your own opinion about what YOU tried? Why the reliance on someone else? Why would you not trust your own ears? 

Here is the $64 question, if I posted something from an "engineer" with a POSITIVE review of a custom cable would YOU buy it?

[Elizabeth]

GREAT question, probably the best one in this entire thread, thanks for asking.

"Some people" are the people who posted a negative opinion about power cords and never mentioned one they tried. By my count that is 3 in this thread.

I have to disagree on the requirement to have used something to make a comment. Though it IS appealing to do so, it really does not have to be a requirement. (IE you do no have to have murdered people to have an opinion about it).
I think if those folks could stick to: "I" do not think.." instead of the speculative universal "Everyone knows that is nonsense" sort of comment.. 

Diversity of opinion can make us all better and smarter. Being able to explain your position actually can enlighten you too. The downside is folks who fail to see others are just as smart, just as capable, yet inexplicably hold an opposing view!

[witchdoctor]

Since I am the person who wrote "spent $9K on cables" I can also comment that I agree about: "my position is that the cash used to purchase high dollar wire is much better spent on equipment" ABSOLUTELY TRUE.
The usual suggestion for folks unsure of what to spend on interconnects, cables, power cords.. For those who have no idea the suggestion is spend 10% or less on all your wires (of the total cost of components and speakers).
And for folks who DO NOT own a 'mature'* audio system.. I suggest spending as little as possible on wires. If you want some 'aftermarket' wires, go with the well known budget brands.
* Mature means you now own the best equipment values you will be buying. NO more equipment upgrading for the foreseeable future.
For folks who bought equipment they know they will be upgrading in a few years, or are buying to try it out.. I would say spending a bundle on wires is a mistake at that point.

Unless you know what you actually want.. No point in buying by suggestion of other people you never met, online LOL

If you spend money on quality cables you might not even need to buy any more "equipment".
I like the budget posted in the article I linked to earlier, 1/3 on components, 1/3 on room design and treatments, 1/3 on power (that includes conditioning and cables). So if you spent $9K on power cables that would be in line with a system of around $30K.

[Elizabeth]

If you spend money on quality cables you might not even need to buy any more "equipment".
I like the budget posted in the article I linked to earlier, 1/3 on components, 1/3 on room design and treatments, 1/3 on power (that includes conditioning and cables). So if you spent $9K on power cables that would be in line with a system of around $30K.

Near 2015 I spent about $9K. First buying Cardas Parsec IC, then after awhile I went for a expensive 7 meter Ic for the Preamp to amp costing $3200 by itself. Kimber KS1116. I liked THAT one so much I added four more 1.5m KS1016.
Last year after upgrading speakers (Magnepan 20.7) and SACD player, (Marantz SA-10) I went and spent $1600 on power cords. That in turn got me to spend $3400 on a pile of Furutech duplex and a few Furtech plugs Which startling and amazing improvement got me to THROW OUT the powercords I just bought, and spend $2200 on slightly better ones. (Actually I was able to salvage some of the others for use on TV and DVD etc. and one $450 one on the Rudistor RPX33 mk2 headamp.. Which just sounded better with that one than the new one)
And more...
In the display of utter folly (to some naysayers) in the past three months I spent $1300 on nothing but high end resistors for the Magnepan 20.7 midrange resistor spot. Trying Duelund CAST (lucky lucky they are on 1/2 sale) and then PATH Audio resistors. Going from single ones to pairs, and now trios of resistors. So instead of the $0.59 cost ceramic throw aways that come with the speakers. I have four (3.9 3.9 3.9 and a trim 39 ohm) on each side. ($240) so I spent 200 times more on two little resistor sets. (1.26 ohms)
The good thing is I now have spares if I change any other equipment and have to re adjust the resistor set (which is designed to alter the tone of the midrange)
How close was the Mundorf set? (which cost $0.89 each) If I had used those the same way they would cost total $7... Ahhh close! .. just not quit as good.   

[witchdoctor]

Near 2015 I spent about $9K. First buying Cardas Parsec IC, then after awhile I went for a expensive 7 meter Ic for the Preamp to amp costing $3200 by itself. Kimber KS1116. I liked THAT one so much I added four more 1.5m KS1016.
Last year after upgrading speakers (Magnepan 20.7) and SACD player, (Marantz SA-10) I went and spent $1600 on power cords. That in turn got me to spend $3400 on a pile of Furutech duplex and a few Furtech plugs Which startling and amazing improvement got me to THROW OUT the powercords I just bought, and spend $2200 on slightly better ones. (Actually I was able to salvage some of the others for use on TV and DVD etc. and one $450 one on the Rudistor RPX33 mk2 headamp.. Which just sounded better with that one than the new one)
And more...
In the display of utter folly (to some naysayers) in the past three months I spent $1300 on nothing but high end resistors for the Magnepan 20.7 midrange resistor spot. Trying Duelund CAST (lucky lucky they are on 1/2 sale) and then PATH Audio resistors. Going from single ones to pairs, and now trios of resistors. So instead of the $0.59 cost ceramic throw aways that come with the speakers. I have four (3.9 3.9 3.9 and a trim 39 ohm) on each side. ($240) so I spent 200 times more on two little resistor sets. (1.26 ohms)
The good thing is I now have spares if I change any other equipment and have to re adjust the resistor set (which is designed to alter the tone of the midrange)
How close was the Mundorf set? (which cost $0.89 each) If I had used those the same way they would cost total $7... Ahhh close! .. just not quit as good.   

What happens is you get to wonder about possibilities once you hear improvements. I have a Mapleshade outlet ($80)into a Monster HTPS conditioner ($1000) Power Conditioner and then various Virtual Dynamics power cords to my active speakers and components ( around $5K). I can't imagine just plugging stuff straight into the wall, the soundstage and dynamics just collapse.

[Elizabeth]

I use a Furman REF 20 for most stuff. For digital I have a PS Audio P-600. All the outlets on both are all now Furutech GTXD Gold or NCF Rhodium. The AC distribution to them and the amp are a complex of seven Duplex, also all Furutech GTX-D.
I have to say that upgrade to the Furutech was an ear opener... I started buying just three. Wow. a few more, a few more....

[Freo-1]

Are you not capable of posting your own opinion about what YOU tried? Why the reliance on someone else? Why would you not trust your own ears? 

Here is the $64 question, if I posted something from an "engineer" with a POSITIVE review of a custom cable would YOU buy it?

You are missing the point.  Most audiophiles (myself included) have tried high end power cords and cables, and my experience has taught me they made zero difference.  Any dealer who tries to con people into buying high dollar wire is not reputable IMHO.   Changing gear however  HAS made a large difference, which is both measurable and audible.  For example, my integrated amp has the phono and DAC stages built in, so the only cable needed is the input cable from the optical player (or no cable via wireless), and the single cable connecting the two amps.  Shortest possible signal path to the output stage, with (almost) no interconnects!


The purpose of posting the position of a actual wire expert stands on it's own merit, and needs no further explanation. 


Having said all that, I respect Elizabeth's position regarding her support of high dollar cables.  Personally, I would have spent the cash upgrading one or more components or speakers.  It's a simple matter of a different prospective, and as she is a very experienced audiophile, she made here decisions based on her experience, which is fine. 

[HifiDan]

Someone inquired about what the pc were connected to, here is is:
Moon 260 D transport = Red Dawn pc
Bryston BDA1= RedDawn pc
Transparent digital between them.
Harmonic Tech ICs to pre-amp
YBA Alpha with special PS = Red Dawn PC
Bryston 14b SST2 with DR ACoustics BLack FIre 10 PC
Transparent Reference ICs from pre-amp.
DIY Line Arrays Hi-Vi drivers connected with Transparent Music Wave Plus speaker wire.
I guess this is a pretty revealing system to me where changing PC will bring changes, good and bad to the overall sound.
Just my past experiences ...
Happy listening
Hifidan

[audioengr]

Good equipment can benefit from good power cords.  There are a lot of bad ones out there however.  Some make things harsh, some make things too soft, some cause breakers to flip.

I have had really good results with Tekline top of line, I think it might be PC AG-12 or PC 5-W MKII, not sure....

I don't know if you can even get these anymore, except used.

Steve N.

[redbook]

 I  use Nordost  Vishnus on all my components. 

[timind]

GREAT question, probably the best one in this entire thread, thanks for asking.

"Some people" are the people who posted a negative opinion about power cords and never mentioned one they tried. By my count that is 3 in this thread.

I'm not sure whether or not I've posted a "negative opinion" about power cords. If I am included in the 3 you've counted, make the number 2. I have used more than a few after market power cables, and still do use a couple. I use them now because I have them. I use them because they're the proper length for the application, not for a perceived sonic benefit.

[timind]

Nope, it never has precluded anything. I think it is well understood now. Just not accepted by all, and that's ok.

It's not ok. But it's the way it is.

[PDR]

I'm not sure whether or not I've posted a "negative opinion" about power cords. If I am included in the 3 you've counted, make the number 2. I have used more than a few after market power cables, and still do use a couple. I use them now because I have them. I use them because they're the proper length for the application, not for a perceived sonic benefit.

If you counted me make it one.
I still use them because I have them as well.