M3 or maybe M4 for me?

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MONKEYWICKEDMONKEY

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Re: M3 or maybe M4 for me?
« Reply #80 on: 20 Jun 2019, 02:16 am »
Your goal of downsizing seems to be in conflict with your desire for full range bass production.

Maybe. Or maybe floor standing is the only way to go. I don’t know.

poseidonsvoice

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Re: M3 or maybe M4 for me?
« Reply #81 on: 20 Jun 2019, 11:23 am »
Tyson,

The 18 inch Ultimax is a nice driver but wrong application imho. HT is fine (in fact excellent), so somewhat unfair in your comparisons.

Others,

I would encourage folks to try drivers that are designed for professional audio and then go for the swarm. I did the OB and Rythmik thing for a few years, then I discovered B&C, BMS and Funk. Quad subs. No bass that sounds like you are in a “submarine” and just as quick if not quicker than Rythmik. My comparisons were to triple OB12’s for each channel and even then, I felt the bass attack/punch was missing. Both setups did not boom at all. But the quad sub swarm won out on freedom from SPL compression and felt livelier giving music even more of a foundation.

It takes measurements and patience. Whether you go for Rythmik, OB Rythmik or professional drivers, you will NEVER escape the REQUIREMENT for proper measurements, room treatments and some EQ. It’s a fact and implementation is what counts! Not blanket assertions that Rythmik and OB are the end all be all!  :wink:

I see both the swarm setup and OB Rythmik as the finest examples of state of the art bass but honestly the devil is in the details and the musical requirements of the end user. And whether the individual has the space to implement these designs is terribly important to consider. Enthusiasts of classical music (and orchestra) will more easily appreciate the spatiality afforded by OB Rythmik designs, while for nearly all other genres of music the Geddes/Toole/LeJeune swarm bass system is really the finest I’ve heard (and it’s damn good at classical too).

Different strokes for different folks but the strokes have to be well executed!

Single subs, and full range speakers? That’s prehistoric when considering bass and you’ll run circles in trying to make it sound right. It’s an acoustical nightmare!

Best,
Anand.

Tyson

Re: M3 or maybe M4 for me?
« Reply #82 on: 20 Jun 2019, 03:34 pm »
Tyson,

The 18 inch Ultimax is a nice driver but wrong application imho. HT is fine (in fact excellent), so somewhat unfair in your comparisons.

Others,

I would encourage folks to try drivers that are designed for professional audio and then go for the swarm. I did the OB and Rythmik thing for a few years, then I discovered B&C, BMS and Funk. Quad subs. No bass that sounds like you are in a “submarine” and just as quick if not quicker than Rythmik. My comparisons were to triple OB12’s for each channel and even then, I felt the bass attack/punch was missing. Both setups did not boom at all. But the quad sub swarm won out on freedom from SPL compression and felt livelier giving music even more of a foundation.

It takes measurements and patience. Whether you go for Rythmik, OB Rythmik or professional drivers, you will NEVER escape the REQUIREMENT for proper measurements, room treatments and some EQ. It’s a fact and implementation is what counts! Not blanket assertions that Rythmik and OB are the end all be all!  :wink:

I see both the swarm setup and OB Rythmik as the finest examples of state of the art bass but honestly the devil is in the details and the musical requirements of the end user. And whether the individual has the space to implement these designs is terribly important to consider. Enthusiasts of classical music (and orchestra) will more easily appreciate the spatiality afforded by OB Rythmik designs, while for nearly all other genres of music the Geddes/Toole/LeJeune swarm bass system is really the finest I’ve heard (and it’s damn good at classical too).

Different strokes for different folks but the strokes have to be well executed!

Single subs, and full range speakers? That’s prehistoric when considering bass and you’ll run circles in trying to make it sound right. It’s an acoustical nightmare!

Best,
Anand.

Oh, the only reason I brought up the Ultimax was to show that the servo OB subs have plenty of output and won't wimp out on music with "high levels of 30hz bass".  Which was his concern, I think (ie, will OBs wimp out on high level electronic bass music?).

You are totally right - the Ultimax is not even in the same league from a quality of bass standpoint. 

We also agree that servo OB is not the only way to go, a swarm is an excellent approach too, in most ways it's even better.  BUT it comes at the tradeoff of more expense, complexity and way, way lower WAF.  (Which, as a newly single guy, I now longer have to worry about, #silverlinings)

MONKEYWICKEDMONKEY

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Re: M3 or maybe M4 for me?
« Reply #83 on: 29 Jun 2019, 11:23 pm »
So this weekend I got hear a few speakers.

Spatial x5 Saphire (prototype? It was unpainted)
ATC SCM40
Tekton Double Impacts
Zu Soul Supreme

I missed out on Mark audio and Joseph Pulssrs.


So here are my thoughts: the Tekton sounded just as I thought they would. Big, detailed and fills the room.

The Zu were surprisingly nice, not the sound I’m looking for but nice.

The ATC were. HOLY CRAP good. Ultra clean, tight bass that filled the room without getting
Messy or flabby. Best bass I heard all day. Not in my price range but my favorite hands down. It’s more or less the sound I am looking for.

X5 Saphire:  of those there in the room, hands down everyone’s least favorite. That tweeter was kicking everyone in the teeth and the bass was largely nonexistent. One of the organizers (and not a Spatial rep) was overheard mentioning they weren’t yet broken in, which is what I hope is the case. I was psyched to hear the M3 so was disappointed to find out that wasn’t what was sent. But still I wanted to here more music and some of it was excellent. A Cat Stevens song was played that filled the room. It was kind of a lo-fi recording (very little top end) but it and everything played before was engaging and filled the room with sound. The bass was lacking and I was running under the assumption that this was what OB bass was. But still lacking. A Tool song was played and while clear, there was almost zero bass guitar and the upper mids were a touch harsh and very forward. When I heard about a potential lack of break in I felt better as I liked a lot of what I heard today.

So yeah. No decisions for me yet. I’m hoping the audio group who puts this on I. A few months will get a M3 that’s plenty run in. I’m dying to hear them.

So after all that I come away better informed but no closer to knowing which direction I want to go in.

JackD

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Re: M3 or maybe M4 for me?
« Reply #84 on: 30 Jun 2019, 12:18 am »
As shown on the website the X3 and X5 are a light woodgrain finish as standard and not painted. As to the tweeter harshness break-in could have been an issue but with the bass it sounds as if they hadn't taken the time to properly set up the bass amp at all or maybe even turn it on as there should have been ample bass. 

MONKEYWICKEDMONKEY

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Re: M3 or maybe M4 for me?
« Reply #85 on: 30 Jun 2019, 12:31 am »
As shown on the website the X3 and X5 are a light woodgrain finish as standard and not painted. As to the tweeter harshness break-in could have been an issue but with the bass it sounds as if they hadn't taken the time to properly set up the bass amp at all or maybe even turn it on as there should have been ample bass.

This one was not plugged into Any outlet just speaker cables. So maybe they muffed it. I specifically looked at that as I thought the X series had active bass. I don’t recall seeing an amp back there but I could have missed it. This one was raw MDF.

JackD

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Re: M3 or maybe M4 for me?
« Reply #86 on: 30 Jun 2019, 01:27 am »
Unless Claytons changed something there is a Hypex amp for the bass driver that needs to be plugged into the wall or a power conditioner and then dialed in. It's not a big unit but rectangular and integrates into the stand based on diagrams he showed earlier.  Not surprised the bass was lacking and that would exaggerate the upper ranges.  Maybe he's sending the demo unit's out unpainted so as not to have to refinish them after each trip. 

MONKEYWICKEDMONKEY

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Re: M3 or maybe M4 for me?
« Reply #87 on: 30 Jun 2019, 01:38 am »
Unless Claytons changed something there is a Hypex amp for the bass driver that needs to be plugged into the wall or a power conditioner and then dialed in. It's not a big unit but rectangular and integrates into the stand based on diagrams he showed earlier.  Not surprised the bass was lacking and that would exaggerate the upper ranges.  Maybe he's sending the demo unit's out unpainted so as not to have to refinish them after each trip.

As weird as it sounds I’d be happy to learn that. It means the Spatials are still on the list.

JackD

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Re: M3 or maybe M4 for me?
« Reply #88 on: 30 Jun 2019, 01:54 am »
Look here post 158.  If amp was not connected there would have been basically nothing under 100hz.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=162916.20

MONKEYWICKEDMONKEY

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Re: M3 or maybe M4 for me?
« Reply #89 on: 30 Jun 2019, 02:00 am »
Look here post 158.  If amp was not connected there would have been basically nothing under 100hz.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=162916.20

That seems to be how I heard it. When I saw it was an X class I was immediately looking to
See the plate amp.

Well clearly the local audio club guys who put this on are ignorant and/or lazy.  Which as I said means I still want to hear the am3. Im excited about it. If anyone in the armpit of this universe is running m3’s I want to come over for an hour and hear them.

TomS

Re: M3 or maybe M4 for me?
« Reply #90 on: 30 Jun 2019, 02:17 am »
I find it very hard to believe Clayton would let a prototype X5 out in the wild, even with an audio club, let alone without anyone (like himself) with the expertise to set it up.

MONKEYWICKEDMONKEY

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Re: M3 or maybe M4 for me?
« Reply #91 on: 30 Jun 2019, 02:32 am »
I find it very hard to believe Clayton would let a prototype X5 out in the wild, even with an audio club, let alone without anyone (like himself) with the expertise to set it up.

Agreed. I even asked if he was there (or a rep from the company). The jamokes told me they got the speakers shipped in to demo.  Same with Tekton. I think ATC was the only one with a rep. Frickin’ excellent system they had. Great sound.

I didn’t get to hear the Salks, Pulsars or whatever was there from Mark Audio. I wish I had.

JackD

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Re: M3 or maybe M4 for me?
« Reply #92 on: 30 Jun 2019, 02:39 am »
Is this the event you went to?

http://www.spatialaudio.us/events

JackD

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Re: M3 or maybe M4 for me?
« Reply #93 on: 30 Jun 2019, 02:42 am »

MONKEYWICKEDMONKEY

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Re: M3 or maybe M4 for me?
« Reply #94 on: 30 Jun 2019, 02:43 am »
Is this the event you went to?

http://www.spatialaudio.us/events

It is indeed. Not a member of that group so I paid at the door. Don’t regret it as it’s fun to hear systems I only read about.


Spatial Audio

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Re: M3 or maybe M4 for me?
« Reply #95 on: 30 Jun 2019, 04:04 pm »
Hi Guys,

Let me clarify the situation regarding the Speakerfest 2019 event held on Saturday in Scottsdale. I sent a prototype pair of a new design called the M5 Sapphire to the event. This a moderately sized (and priced) passive speaker with one 15 inch woofer and tweeter. It is a very transparent speaker with excellent bass and huge soundstage. Something was apparently wrong with one or both of the speakers, as the show coordinator reported they did not sound right.

I will have to wait until they arrive back on Friday to figure out what happened. It could have been shipping related as well, but I don't know yet. Too bad, but I like the idea of this event where a variety of speakers are demonstrated, allowing listeners to experience many design approaches and compare results. So, I plan to continue supporting this new annual event in the future.

The M5 Sapphire is a significant new product concept that I will introduce this fall. So you will be hearing more about it soon.


Clayton Shaw
spatialaudio.us

MONKEYWICKEDMONKEY

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Re: M3 or maybe M4 for me?
« Reply #96 on: 30 Jun 2019, 04:24 pm »
Hi Guys,

Let me clarify the situation regarding the Speakerfest 2019 event held on Saturday in Scottsdale. I sent a prototype pair of a new design called the M5 Sapphire to the event. This a moderately sized (and priced) passive speaker with one 15 inch woofer and tweeter. It is a very transparent speaker with excellent bass and huge soundstage. Something was apparently wrong with one or both of the speakers, as the show coordinator reported they did not sound right.

I will have to wait until they arrive back on Friday to figure out what happened. It could have been shipping related as well, but I don't know yet. Too bad, but I like the idea of this event where a variety of speakers are demonstrated, allowing listeners to experience many design approaches and compare results. So, I plan to continue supporting this new annual event in the future.

The M5 Sapphire is a significant new product concept that I will introduce this fall. So you will be hearing more about it soon.


Clayton Shaw
spatialaudio.us

Good to know. Thanks Clayton. I’m still very much looking forward to experiencing Spatial Speakers as they are the top of my short list. I hear they are having another in a few months hopefully I’ll get my chance then.

Spatial Audio

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Re: M3 or maybe M4 for me?
« Reply #97 on: 11 Jul 2019, 01:42 pm »
So this weekend I got hear a few speakers.

Spatial x5 Saphire (prototype? It was unpainted)
ATC SCM40
Tekton Double Impacts
Zu Soul Supreme

I missed out on Mark audio and Joseph Pulssrs.


So here are my thoughts: the Tekton sounded just as I thought they would. Big, detailed and fills the room.

The Zu were surprisingly nice, not the sound I’m looking for but nice.

The ATC were. HOLY CRAP good. Ultra clean, tight bass that filled the room without getting
Messy or flabby. Best bass I heard all day. Not in my price range but my favorite hands down. It’s more or less the sound I am looking for.

X5 Saphire:  of those there in the room, hands down everyone’s least favorite. That tweeter was kicking everyone in the teeth and the bass was largely nonexistent. One of the organizers (and not a Spatial rep) was overheard mentioning they weren’t yet broken in, which is what I hope is the case. I was psyched to hear the M3 so was disappointed to find out that wasn’t what was sent. But still I wanted to here more music and some of it was excellent. A Cat Stevens song was played that filled the room. It was kind of a lo-fi recording (very little top end) but it and everything played before was engaging and filled the room with sound. The bass was lacking and I was running under the assumption that this was what OB bass was. But still lacking. A Tool song was played and while clear, there was almost zero bass guitar and the upper mids were a touch harsh and very forward. When I heard about a potential lack of break in I felt better as I liked a lot of what I heard today.

So yeah. No decisions for me yet. I’m hoping the audio group who puts this on I. A few months will get a M3 that’s plenty run in. I’m dying to hear them.

So after all that I come away better informed but no closer to knowing which direction I want to go in.

I unpacked and tested the M5 prototypes that were sent down to the Speakerfest in Arizona. Since reports indicated a problem, I thought maybe something was wired wrong, since we had to rush them to Fedex at the last minute. It turned out that one of the speakers must have been dropped hard because the toroidal inductor was loose and shorting against one of the WBT terminals inside the input panel. Its actually our fault because we had to use make-shift packing materials. Anyway -they will be in production in August, so I was a little premature. I may attend the event next year - its sounds like a lot of fun.

Clayton







MONKEYWICKEDMONKEY

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Re: M3 or maybe M4 for me?
« Reply #98 on: 28 Jul 2019, 08:00 pm »
So I wanted to ask, as I’ve been eliminating floorstanding speakers from list due to apartment living, since the Spatials aim is to nullify room interaction as much as possible, I wonder about their transfer of vibration through the floor. It’s not about space so much as bass permeating though the apartments around me, specifically above and below.

Don_S

Re: M3 or maybe M4 for me?
« Reply #99 on: 28 Jul 2019, 09:20 pm »
So I wanted to ask, as I’ve been eliminating floorstanding speakers from list due to apartment living, since the Spatials aim is to nullify room interaction as much as possible, I wonder about their transfer of vibration through the floor. It’s not about space so much as bass permeating though the apartments around me, specifically above and below.

Consider IsoAcoustic GAIAs for your neighbors under you.