Imaging setup question

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Early B.

Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #20 on: 29 Jan 2019, 12:09 am »
Try a simple test.  Put a comforter over the TV and see if there is a difference.  That should help with front wall reflection.

I just tried this. I took the comforter off my bed and placed it over the TV. It sounded significantly worse -- like the vocalist was singing from underneath my comforter.

I tried the comforter trick before as well as sound panels in front of the TV and the TV always wins.

ebag4

Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #21 on: 29 Jan 2019, 12:27 am »
I have found diffusion to be superior on the front wall (or large tv) when using OB speakers.  In my current setup which has a large window between the speakers, adding diffusion helped immensely with the image focus.

I just played the Eagles track Danny mentioned and the crowd is all over up and behind the band.  On the dire straits track the thunder was elevated but not at the ceiling of my listening room with a cathedral ceiling.

This is with the NX-Oticas MTM sitting on h frames.

Best,
Ed

HAL

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Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #22 on: 29 Jan 2019, 04:50 am »
Ed,
I have as well.  I have the PI Audio Group diffusors for my front wall for my OB planar speakers.   


mkane

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Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #23 on: 29 Jan 2019, 04:08 pm »
  For you folks taking measurements, are you using REW? I used to be able to take measurements when I used mini DSP.  Now I haven't got a clue what I need. I do know I want some diffusers.

mlundy57

Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #24 on: 29 Jan 2019, 04:59 pm »
  For you folks taking measurements, are you using REW? I used to be able to take measurements when I used mini DSP.  Now I haven't got a clue what I need. I do know I want some diffusers.

I use REW with a U-Mic 1

Mike

HAL

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Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #25 on: 29 Jan 2019, 05:37 pm »
REW and UMM-6 mic here, similar to Mike's setup for measuring.

Rusty Jefferson

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Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #26 on: 29 Jan 2019, 07:19 pm »
Without knowledge and use of extensive measuring equipment, how can one determine if the vertical plane problem is due to the room or the equipment? Every audiophile I know (OK, that's like 3 people) has the same issue. The horizontal soundstage and imaging are "easy" to dial in, but I've never been able to expand the sound along the vertical axis......
Measurements in your room aren't going to help you with this. If your speakers meet the criteria to create this soundstage (mentioned earlier), and Danny says this model will, that work has been done for you. Now, it's about room, position in the room, and equipment.  If you have speakers that don't meet the criteria, they'll still sound great but never give you the realistic image no matter what you do. I have a pair of coaxial horn speakers that will never create a realistic image, but have a great center image, and sound wonderful.

Here's a link to a great resource. These imaging tests are the first I've tried that have the vertical (from speaker to ceiling) and the left/right pan BEHIND the speakers, rather than a simple left/right pan. There are many other interesting resources on this site as well. It does require a small donation however to download the files. https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_ledr.php   I worked quite a while with a pair of speakers capable of properly reproducing these tracks but didn't, until I made the appropriate position, and equipment changes for them to do it. Now, an orchestra is behind the speakers, with height to the ceiling, and the speakers are invisible. No sense of were the music is coming from.  This type of imaging, and image specificity isn't important to everyone, of course, but once I heard some systems that did it, I wanted it in my system.

Mike, we might have to upgrade your front end gear.

And you shouldn't have anything using a wall wart.

I can change the vertical imaging and layering with DAC, computer, USB cable, etc.

mlundy57

Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #27 on: 29 Jan 2019, 09:48 pm »
Rusty,

How about a narritive description of the steps you went through with changes to positioning, the room, and the ststem?

Mike

mkane

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Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #28 on: 29 Jan 2019, 11:32 pm »
I use REW with a U-Mic 1

Mike
what do you connect the mic to, your PC? thanks

mlundy57

Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #29 on: 29 Jan 2019, 11:51 pm »
what do you connect the mic to, your PC? thanks

Yes. The mic connects to a USB port on the pc then I connect the pc’s headphone jack to an analog input on the preamp. This requires a stereo miniplug to RCA patch cable. Also, since the pc is farther away from the preamp than the patch cord is long, I add a long pair of stereo interconnects and connect them to the patch cord with RCA balens

Mike

mkane

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Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #30 on: 30 Jan 2019, 12:29 am »
Got that. I'll make an attempt at taking a measurement.

mkane

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Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #31 on: 30 Jan 2019, 05:37 pm »
  This could become obsessive. Listening thru a chart.




Rusty Jefferson

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Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #32 on: 31 Jan 2019, 03:05 am »
Rusty,

How about a narritive description of the steps you went through with changes to positioning, the room, and the ststem?

Mike

Mike,

Sorry, I was tied up today. Just sent you a pm.

mlundy57

Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #33 on: 4 Feb 2019, 06:25 pm »
Thanks for the help.

When I download and play the LEDR files, I can clearly hear the sound going up to the ceiling but it doesn't make it all the way up with music. Here is a pic of the current front wall setup:




Adding the PI Audio diffusers did a world of good for the overall sound. There is no longer any echo with the NX-Otica monitors no matter how loud I play the music, at least up to the point I can't stand it any louder.

However, the soundstage is still not fully developed. While the LEDR test files go all the way to the ceiling, with music the vertical sound stage doesn't go up more than a foot above the speakers. When listening to the thunderstorm on Brothers in Arms (SACD in an OPPO 105) the rumble of the thunder sounds like it is behind the top of the speakers with the crackling part is slightly above the speakers. However, none of it makes it to the ceiling.

Would stacking another set of diffusers on top of the ones I have make a difference? Any other ideas?

Mike

Danny Richie

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Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #34 on: 4 Feb 2019, 07:10 pm »
There is still a lot in the signal path that can be causing what you are hearing especially in the digital chain. 

mlundy57

Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #35 on: 4 Feb 2019, 07:15 pm »
There is still a lot in the signal path that can be causing what you are hearing especially in the digital chain.

I bought the LP of Brothers in Arms as well as the SACD. I’ll see what happens with the LP tonight.

HAL

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Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #36 on: 4 Feb 2019, 08:17 pm »
Mike,

You might try moving the two diffusors panels behind the TV to on top the ones behind the top baffles as a test of your idea. 

Just a thought.

SoCalWJS

Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #37 on: 4 Feb 2019, 08:18 pm »
mlundy- Did you ever try this? I know Early B. responded that he did not like the results when he tried it, but not sure if you gave it a shot.
Try a simple test.  Put a comforter over the TV and see if there is a difference.  That should help with front wall reflection.
I think that you might be losing a bit with the TV where it is since it goes below the height of your speakers/drivers.

mlundy57

Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #38 on: 4 Feb 2019, 11:50 pm »
Just tried the LP version of Brothers in Arms. While the thunder was placed a little higher in the soundstage than the SACD version, it was not rolling across the ceiling high. BTW, I have an 8' high flat ceiling, neither raised nor cathedral. This suggests to me it is not mainly a digital front end issue.

My analog front end is a JWM Acoustics Karen 6 TT (started life as a Rega RP6 with external speed box power supply to which Joshua did a number of upgrades, a custom plinth, and matching speed box cover), Ortophon 2M Black MM cart, and a Lounge Audio LCR MKIII phono pre.


mlundy- Did you ever try this? I know Early B. responded that he did not like the results when he tried it, but not sure if you gave it a shot.I think that you might be losing a bit with the TV where it is since it goes below the height of your speakers/drivers.

Yes, didn't help.

Mike


Danny Richie

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Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #39 on: 5 Feb 2019, 12:20 am »
That was a good test.