Imaging setup question

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mlundy57

Imaging setup question
« on: 27 Jan 2019, 07:27 pm »
The way I currently have my OB speakers set up I have a good center image and when playing test tracks I have very good left to right imaging i.e. when someone is walking in from stage left, across the front of the stage and off to stage right, then rolls a glass bottle across a hard floor from right to left, then retraces his steps from right to left, the sound realistically follows the footsteps and bottle.

When playing test tracks for depth you can easily hear a clicker moving further away. You can also tell a drum set is closer or further away based on distance from the microphone, though not as evident at closer distances than with a clicker.

However, on a track for height, the sound of a cowbell stays pretty much vertically centered even though it starts off on the floor, 4 ft below the mic, then is slowly raised until it is 4ft above the mic.

The question is what do I need to adjust, and how, so the sound of the bell tracks it’s movement?

Mike

Early B.

Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #1 on: 27 Jan 2019, 07:38 pm »
However, on a track for height, the sound of a cowbell stays pretty much vertically centered even though it starts off on the floor, 4 ft below the mic, then is slowly raised until it is 4ft above the mic.

The question is what do I need to adjust, and how, so the sound of the bell tracks it’s movement?

I'm anxiously awaiting responses to this one. I've had the same question for the past 15 years.

 

mcgsxr

Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #2 on: 28 Jan 2019, 02:14 pm »
Are the panels vertical, or do they have any "lean back"?

During my OB experimentation, I found that a 5-10 degree lean helped with vertical placement of instruments - but it was a pain to build to allow for.  When I simply leaned panels against speaker stands it was easy to try, but to build a setup with a build in lean was beyond what I was going to invest in.

mlundy57

Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #3 on: 28 Jan 2019, 02:32 pm »
What panels are you talkng about?

Rusty Jefferson

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Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #4 on: 28 Jan 2019, 02:51 pm »
To create a realistic soundstage of an orchestra (subjective I know  :D) with the musicians appearing to be placed both behind and beyond the width/height of the loudspeakers, with no music appearing to be coming from the loudspeakers, is a truly difficult task for a loudspeaker, as all speakers have compromises.

Your speakers will have to have excellent horizontal and vertical off axis response, matched directivity at crossover, and be time aligned. Speakers with the least amount of baffle, or no baffle, to prevent cabinet diffraction will tend to do this best.  Plus, your room will play a roll.  So, the general rule of 1/3 placement, and have excellent diffusion treatment.

And most annoying of all, using quality tube electronics (preamps, DACs, and/or amplifiers) will create more holographic images than SS equipment. They can release sound that seems to be *stuck* on the speakers.


mcgsxr

Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #5 on: 28 Jan 2019, 03:05 pm »
Panels - baffles - speakers.

Sorry, I should have been clearer - it would be easy to mistake my comment for sound treatments, vs the speakers themselves.

mlundy57

Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #6 on: 28 Jan 2019, 03:09 pm »
Ok I wasn’t sure. I was wondering how you knew I put some Mr T diffusers behind the speakers this weekend.
The height issue still exists though

Mike

mlundy57

Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #7 on: 28 Jan 2019, 03:12 pm »
To create a realistic soundstage of an orchestra (subjective I know  :D) with the musicians appearing to be placed both behind and beyond the width/height of the loudspeakers, with no music appearing to be coming from the loudspeakers, is a truly difficult task for a loudspeaker, as all speakers have compromises.

Your speakers will have to have excellent horizontal and vertical off axis response, matched directivity at crossover, and be time aligned. Speakers with the least amount of baffle, or no baffle, to prevent cabinet diffraction will tend to do this best.  Plus, your room will play a roll.  So, the general rule of 1/3 placement, and have excellent diffusion treatment.

And most annoying of all, using quality tube electronics (preamps, DACs, and/or amplifiers) will create more holographic images than SS equipment. They can release sound that seems to be *stuck* on the speakers.

Soundstage width is great and depth is pretty good. It is height (vertical plane) that is not right. When it comes to height, the sound stays around the level of the tweeter

mlundy57

Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #8 on: 28 Jan 2019, 03:15 pm »
Panels - baffles - speakers.

Sorry, I should have been clearer - it would be easy to mistake my comment for sound treatments, vs the speakers themselves.

These speakers are NX-Otica monitors on top f dual H-frames. Can’t really lean these back. Leaning them back seems counter intuitive as the center of the tweeter is already 5-1/2” above the height of my ears

sledwards

Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #9 on: 28 Jan 2019, 03:21 pm »
Hey Mike:

If you point me towards your test track, I will try the test on my NX-Oticas which have the 5 deg tilt. I have recently tried zero deg tilt and did notice a slight movement of the sound stage.

Steve

Danny Richie

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Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #10 on: 28 Jan 2019, 04:52 pm »
Mike,

The issues aren't with your speakers. I use and have used the same speakers and I get huge top to bottom layering. Or at least I did in my old listening room.

Songs like Brothers in Arms by Dire Straits for instance puts rolling thunder all across the upper corners of my room. And the worn out Hotel California from the Hell Freezes Over album places the crowd hugely across the room with varying degrees of height. And of course the Amused to Death from Roger waters puts things everywhere.

It could be due to your room, but your DAC, source, and cables can have a lot to do with it. I can swap out my USB cable for a cheap one of any kind and loose sound stage depth, layering, height, and detail.

maplegrovemusic

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Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #11 on: 28 Jan 2019, 10:34 pm »
Danny , Is your system listed somewhere here ? Curious what usb cable you are referring to with the great soundstage

Danny Richie

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Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #12 on: 28 Jan 2019, 10:48 pm »
Danny , Is your system listed somewhere here ? Curious what usb cable you are referring to with the great soundstage

It came from Dave Elledge at P.I. Audio.

mlundy57

Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #13 on: 28 Jan 2019, 11:11 pm »
Mike,

The issues aren't with your speakers. I use and have used the same speakers and I get huge top to bottom layering. Or at least I did in my old listening room.

Songs like Brothers in Arms by Dire Straits for instance puts rolling thunder all across the upper corners of my room. And the worn out Hotel California from the Hell Freezes Over album places the crowd hugely across the room with varying degrees of height. And of course the Amused to Death from Roger waters puts things everywhere.

It could be due to your room, but your DAC, source, and cables can have a lot to do with it. I can swap out my USB cable for a cheap one of any kind and loose sound stage depth, layering, height, and detail.

Danny,

I'll have to check my Hell Freezes Over Album and Amused to Death and pay attention to that.

Right now, when playing a solo voice like Jennifer Warrens' "Ballad of a Runaway Horse", her voice is centered and at a realistic height above the floor. However, on something like Reference Recordings version of Rutter's "Requein Aeternam", the chorus is wide with some some layering in depth between the female and male voices but sounds spatially like it is on top of the orchestra.

For the system, I have the UberBUSS on the power amps and picked up a second Uber for the source components but it is noisy so I sent it to Dave to check out and upgrade if necessary. He is also building me a DigiBUSS for the source components that have wall wart power supplies. Once I get the second Uber back and the Digi I will replace the Panamax line conditioner I'm currently using and see what happens with that.

The DAC I'm using in this system is a PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC & preamp. My digital sources are an OPPO 105 and a Windows 10 Professional Xeon based computer with an SoTM Sound Card. The USB cable is a two leg Power/Data cable that I think came from PI Audio.

The next item on the agenda for the room is to build a frame to secure inside the window opening so I can get the TV more out of the way. It is currently on a ceiling mount that hangs down between the speakers and sticks out 14" from the wall. Which puts the TV 14" from the plane of the back of the large wing on the Otica monitors.

mlundy57

Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #14 on: 28 Jan 2019, 11:16 pm »
Hey Mike:

If you point me towards your test track, I will try the test on my NX-Oticas which have the 5 deg tilt. I have recently tried zero deg tilt and did notice a slight movement of the sound stage.

Steve

Steve,

A number of the tracks are on album called "The Best of Chesky Jazz and More Audiophile Tests Volume 2" by Chesky records.

Mike

Early B.

Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #15 on: 28 Jan 2019, 11:18 pm »
Mike,

The issues aren't with your speakers. I use and have used the same speakers and I get huge top to bottom layering. Or at least I did in my old listening room.

Songs like Brothers in Arms by Dire Straits for instance puts rolling thunder all across the upper corners of my room. And the worn out Hotel California from the Hell Freezes Over album places the crowd hugely across the room with varying degrees of height. And of course the Amused to Death from Roger waters puts things everywhere.

It could be due to your room, but your DAC, source, and cables can have a lot to do with it. I can swap out my USB cable for a cheap one of any kind and loose sound stage depth, layering, height, and detail.

Without knowledge and use of extensive measuring equipment, how can one determine if the vertical plane problem is due to the room or the equipment? Every audiophile I know (OK, that's like 3 people) has the same issue. The horizontal soundstage and imaging are "easy" to dial in, but I've never been able to expand the sound along the vertical axis. 

P.S. -- my 65" TV is also on a couple of feet behind my speakers. Not sure how that affects the sound since the wall behind the TV is flat, too.
 

HAL

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Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #16 on: 28 Jan 2019, 11:43 pm »
Try a simple test.  Put a comforter over the TV and see if there is a difference.  That should help with front wall reflection.

Danny Richie

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Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #17 on: 28 Jan 2019, 11:47 pm »
Mike, we might have to upgrade your front end gear.

And you shouldn't have anything using a wall wart.

Danny Richie

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Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #18 on: 28 Jan 2019, 11:48 pm »
Without knowledge and use of extensive measuring equipment, how can one determine if the vertical plane problem is due to the room or the equipment? Every audiophile I know (OK, that's like 3 people) has the same issue. The horizontal soundstage and imaging are "easy" to dial in, but I've never been able to expand the sound along the vertical axis. 

P.S. -- my 65" TV is also on a couple of feet behind my speakers. Not sure how that affects the sound since the wall behind the TV is flat, too.
 

I can change the vertical imaging and layering with DAC, computer, USB cable, etc.

mlundy57

Re: Imaging setup question
« Reply #19 on: 29 Jan 2019, 12:01 am »
Mike, we might have to upgrade your front end gear.

And you shouldn't have anything using a wall wart.

Believe it or not both my turntable’s external power supply (Rega RP6) and my phono preamp (Lounge Audio LCR MKIII) have wall warts. The router is the other wall wart.

What type of upgrades are you thinking of?