[skunark]

Is not buying a iPad the reason you don't just use the Bridge II in the DS Jr?

By iPad you mean any smartphone or tablet as a remote control?   This seems like a requirement to replace the laptop. 

BTW, you dont need a nuc to try roon, you macbook air should be enough to test the interface for the hardware you have.    If you like it you can get a dedicated solution. 

[JLM]

Ethernet in and Roon running on a NUC or Nucleus is all one needs IMO.

Roon just isn't worth $500 IMO for metadata/Tidal integration and therefore neither is Roon Nucleus.  Would Roon Nucleus sound any better than the SGC/Roon?

It's been 35 years since I DIY'd (those were 'simple' kits) and I'm a certified computer dummy.

[JLM]

If you are still interested in a dsp you can try it still try it out with your macbook air.   
http://blog.roonlabs.com/digital-room-correction/
Since your ps audio direct stream junior is Roon ready, just install the Roon server on your macbook air with a trial or short subscription and give it a go with the roon app.

Also have you tried a uPnP mediaserver like MinimServer running on your mac with the ps audio app?  If that works for you then maybe a small synology or qnap nas server running a pnp media server. 

Did i read this right that the direct stream jr converts all pcm to dsd?

For me Roon only added Tidal integration and metadata, nice but not worth $500 IMO. 

What is "uPnP mediaserver like MinimServer" and "synology or qnap nas server running a pnp media server"? 

Yes, as I've read DSJ converts all incoming formats to DSD256 to make computing simpler, why do you ask?

I chose to use an iPhone SE (small format, like the old 4S) so too small of a screen for music apps.  Prefer using the MacBook Air on my lap with a real keyboard versus holding/using a tablet plus already own the MacBook.  This is non-negotiable.  I'm a "bit" of a luddite compared to most of you and don't want to fill my life (and Apple's pockets) with Apple gizmos.  As I stated before my MacBook Air with iTunes via a 10ft USB cable sounded just as good as the SGC/Roon via ethernet.

Half of you say servers can make a sonic improvement, half don't.  Life would be simpler/cheaper just staying with what I've got.  Will keep looking but I can wait for this whole business to get undisputedly better (sound quality wise) and the user friendier to setup/use (like a microwave oven). 

[TomS]

Roon just isn't worth $500 IMO for metadata/Tidal integration and therefore neither is Roon Nucleus.  Would Roon Nucleus sound any better than the SGC/Roon?

It's been 35 years since I DIY'd (those were 'simple' kits) and I'm a certified computer dummy.

You can run Roon Core on your Macbook if you have enough storage there for your music files. With hard wired ethernet cable from your network router/switch to the DSJ Bridge II, nothing else is needed (no NUC or Nucleus). Roon will also find music files elsewhere on your home network, such as on a NAS, if you choose to use one.

In this setup, the Macbook provides both the Roon Core (server functions) and Roon Controller (telling the server where to send the RAAT data stream, which is to the DSJ Bridge II ethernet port).

I also use my Macbook direct to the DSJ (without Roon) for Spotify Connect (premium only), mainly for music discovery or casual listening. On the Macbook, you just point Spotify to the DSJ Bridge II (one screen click) and you're playing immediately.

[macrojack]

It seems disingenuous to continually reject Roon as costing $500 when, in fact, it costs $120/year ($10/month) or $500 for your entire lifetime. Not finding value is a personal decision. Misrepresenting the terms Roon requires to provide their services is a disservice to them.

I notice too that you are confessing your inability to make computer decisions yet reject any and all suggestions (in advance) that might address a computer inadequacy as your limiting factor. If you really want a solution, and your frustration is as represented, you might benefit from opening your mind to any and all possibilities. TomS seems to feel he has nearly identical equipment and is telling you how he made it work. Why not just follow his advice? He makes it sound easy. Were you unable to imitate his solution in your system?

[thyname]

It seems disingenuous to continually reject Roon as costing $500 when, in fact, it costs $120/year ($10/month) or $500 for your entire lifetime. Not finding value is a personal decision. Misrepresenting the terms Roon requires to provide their services is a disservice to them.

I notice too that you are confessing your inability to make computer decisions yet reject any and all suggestions (in advance) that might address a computer inadequacy as your limiting factor. If you really want a solution, and your frustration is as represented, you might benefit from opening your mind to any and all possibilities. TomS seems to feel he has nearly identical equipment and is telling you how he made it work. Why not just follow his advice? He makes it sound easy. Were you unable to imitate his solution in your system?

I think he was expecting increase in SQ by Roon, and he was disappointed it did not happen. It appears he sees no value on Roon capabilities, which he summarized as Tidal Integration and metadata. We both know Roon offers much more than those two. However, to each his own. Not everyone is a candidate for Roon

[JoshK]

... which he summarized as Tidal Integration and metadata. We both know Roon offers much more than those two. [snip]

Can you explain what that might be?   I see a lot of audiophiles are proponents of ROON, while others I know who are more music lovers and non-audiophiles (using cheap gear, etc) can't fathom the expense for what seems like those two features.

For all practical purposes, if one gets Roon, you will likely end up getting a NUC at some point, so that cost should be factored in.   I pay for Amazon prime and DAZN because I perceive the benefits as worthwhile.  But I can't see the value in Roon as it stands now.

For me being mostly into extreme metal these days, most of my music is found on forums, bandcamp and Spotify has a pretty decent coverage while Tidal has very little coverage.  Tidal is a non-starter AFAIC.   Typically music algorithms that suggest if you like this band you might like this fail unless they follow the metal community which isn't using Tidal  (Youtube works well but SQ sucks, Spotify works decent enough).

I wonder if the metadata function with work well with the typically independent labels?  I think this is thus far the only draw of Roon.  I might give it a try at some point but so far Lumin works brilliantly with my huge collection on my NAS with a bit of work I did with MediaMonkey to clean up some of the tags and such.   

[thyname]

To be clear, you do NOT need a NUC for Roon. You can run the Roon Core (server) on any machine, PC or MAC, which can also be your controller, like any smartphone or tablet.

Apart from Metadata and the (excellent) Tidal integration, Roons give an immense range of benefits for my own library of about 700 ripped CD, and high resolution purchases. Including library management (tagging, grouping, search, etc), playlists, focus feature, lyrics, discovery for artists, and more. Above, it gives me a platform for use in various systems in my house, using one server and an iPad. Which makes it extremely easy if you have two or more setups in he house. And last but not least, excellent UX!

Bottom line, you have to try to really know. To explain it with words does not make it justice

[skunark]

For me Roon only added Tidal integration and metadata, nice but not worth $500 IMO. 

I feel Roon does a horrible job with Tidal integration and that's why i'm not a subscriber, but the metadata is nice and agree it's not worth the cost for my needs.  With that said, I can see why it is popular with the curated metadata as it seems significantly better than anything else.  I don't like the heavy hardware requirements for the server, nor do i want the client always on the mercy of the server to play music.  For usability, I feel Tidal integration IMO should be at the player, not the server.  In a similar note, I feel the playlist should also be at the player, not the server nor the controlling app.

What is "uPnP mediaserver like MinimServer" and "synology or qnap nas server running a pnp media server"? 

So if I understand this correctly, the directstream jr can be controlled by a mconnect app if you have a UPnP media server running on your mac (i.e MinimServer).   Mconnect will list out the tracks on your local UPnP and Tidal, Qobuz, etc and inform the DSJ to play those files.   I only expect this to be a more convenient approach swapping the USB cable for the app on your MacBook Air, sound quality should be the same as a USB cable.   If your MacBook Air had a loud fan, I would say the sound would improve as you can move the laptop to another room.   I believe this experiment will set you back $6 to purchase mconnect app, download MinimServer and give it a try.  If it doesn't work you have a day or two to ask Apple to refund the cost of the app.

This is very similar to my two approaches:
1) Bryston BDP with USB HDD/SSD attached and all controlled by a Soundirok iOS app.  This is probably best way to just play files in terms of sound quality with the AES/EBU xls style cable connected to my DAC.    I "rsync" files between my computer and the Bryston BDP since you can mount it as a drive in the Mac OS Finder.   Nothing is stopping you from using USB thumb drives or just copy files directly to the usb hdd from your laptop.  (Just needs to be a windows formatted drive)  Tidal integration is over the BDP webpage and works okay but there are more convenient solutions out there.  The Tidal sound quality on Bryston is rather good too a lot of the times I can't tell the source unless it's one of my hires files, but then i've been surprised on occasion.  (i'm beginning to feel that Tidal enhances their files or they have a different cut of the same tracks).   The BDP also allows for remote mounts, but i prefer having a HDD attached and sync new files to it.

2) My current approach is to use the Linn Kazoo app to control a swarm of raspberry PIs (audio room, living room, office, garage) with a hifiberry DAC "hat", such that i can have a UPnP media server the serve my music files and also integrate Tidal/Qobuz all within the same application.   From the app I can select the room, build a playlist from Tidal/Qobuz or from the UPnP Media server and mix and match the songs.   I can also save that playlist within the app and use that playlist with any room.  This requires some fun DIY configurations in the raspberry pi, hence me suggesting looking at a Linn streamer.  Linn open sourced a lot of their APIs to allow others to build upon their efforts, I value companies that do that so I will be looking more into Linn down the road for the bedroom or living room.   The Bryston BDP does beat the HifiBerry DAC+/DIGI+ Raspberry PI, but it's really close and typically will use the Linn Kazoo app controller the Raspberry PIs to play tracks from Tidal

Yes, as I've read DSJ converts all incoming formats to DSD256 to make computing simpler, why do you ask?

Most of the times the DACs that support DSD natively also support PCM natively, so this to me seems more complicated, but PS audio could focus all energy and dollars on one format.   Also, it's always been considered a sin to convert DSD to PCM, so just an interesting reverse approach. 

I chose to use an iPhone SE (small format, like the old 4S) so too small of a screen for music apps.  Prefer using the MacBook Air on my lap with a real keyboard versus holding/using a tablet plus already own the MacBook.  This is non-negotiable.  I'm a "bit" of a luddite compared to most of you and don't want to fill my life (and Apple's pockets) with Apple gizmos.  As I stated before my MacBook Air with iTunes via a 10ft USB cable sounded just as good as the SGC/Roon via ethernet.

I don't expect another digital player will provide an improvement with the DSJ then your current setup.  It's a simple, direct and as pure of a digital transport as you can get.  If you are okay with the USB cable and prefer the keyboard and larger screen they there's no need to change.   

Half of you say servers can make a sonic improvement, half don't.  Life would be simpler/cheaper just staying with what I've got.  Will keep looking but I can wait for this whole business to get undisputedly better (sound quality wise) and the user friendier to setup/use (like a microwave oven).

I don't like the noise of a desktop or spinning HDDs in the same room as the stereo, that could be the reason for many why there is an improvement with a server.   I think weather, mood or how many drink's I have had will make a larger sonic impact than the server brand or the protocol used.   

[jtwrace]

I feel Roon does a horrible job with Tidal integration and that's why i'm not a subscriber, but the metadata is nice and agree it's not worth the cost for my needs. 

That's the most bizarre things I've seen in this thread.  It's ONE of the BEST things it does.  The integration is truly seem-less and amazing.  What does it not do for you? 

[JLM]

skunark, most of what you're saying is way over my head (a certified computer dummy), but I think I agree with you.   

[skunark]

That's the most bizarre things I've seen in this thread.  It's ONE of the BEST things it does.  The integration is truly seem-less and amazing.  What does it not do for you?

Syncing a playlist between the Tidal App on my smartphone to Roon never really worked.   When I did the trial run last spring, this was barely unidirectional as I could create a playlist in the Tidal app but if i added any songs to that playlist on a later date, it didn't show up in Roon.  I had to duplicate the playlist in tidal for it to show up.    I still have the -1 -2 -3 variations of the playlist in my tidal app because of all of that.    I contacted Roon support and they were aware of the issue but offered no solution and suggested I try back in a year.   Likewise you can't push a Roon playlist back to Tidal, but I would rather just use the Tidal app and not have to deal with management playlists.    I had no issues with how Roon played tidal tracks. 

[JLM]

It seems disingenuous to continually reject Roon as costing $500 when, in fact, it costs $120/year ($10/month) or $500 for your entire lifetime. Not finding value is a personal decision. Misrepresenting the terms Roon requires to provide their services is a disservice to them.

I notice too that you are confessing your inability to make computer decisions yet reject any and all suggestions (in advance) that might address a computer inadequacy as your limiting factor. If you really want a solution, and your frustration is as represented, you might benefit from opening your mind to any and all possibilities. TomS seems to feel he has nearly identical equipment and is telling you how he made it work. Why not just follow his advice? He makes it sound easy. Were you unable to imitate his solution in your system?

As we've discussed many times off forum, for the rest of my system, like nearly everything in my life, the cost is based on a one time purchase price.  I don't like to pay 'rent'.  I'm not misrepresenting them, just spelling out the payment option I prefer.  I'm sure Roon will get by if I don't spell out both payment options.

I'm confessing computer ignorance, not stupidity.  I've not made a quick decision as you've insisted I do.  You say you don't care what I do with my system, yet you continually push me to "do something" (usually moves that make little sense and that you can't justify).  I don't have unlimited finances or patience to try everything out there.  As we've gone further into this thread others have admitted some of same frustrations that I have and have suggested I stay put.  I did try to connect the DSJ to the network via ethernet/HomePage but it wouldn't play iTunes or Tidal, unlike TomS who was able to do with Spotify and possibly some "computer magic" that I'm unable to perform.

As we've discussed off forum, "computer people" often are poor communicators with matters of audio being no different.  They don't listen well, speak over the heads of "common folk" assuming we already know 90% of what they know, use too many abbreviations, use multiple terms to represent apparently the same thing, and often lack patience to fully explain these complex issues to others.  I believe that's a big roadblock here for me.  Another is, again as we've discussed off forum, the immaturity of this particular and tiny branch of technology (the microwave oven analogy - they would never have become popular if as hard to setup and maintain as a high-end music server).  The Bang & Olufsen examples of intelligent user interface design from the 70's would serve the high-end music server sector well. 

[artur9]

Would you be open to a device that you can select as a speaker in iTunes?

[jtwrace]

I did try to connect the DSJ to the network via ethernet/HomePage but it wouldn't play iTunes or Tidal, unlike TomS who was able to do with Spotify and possibly some "computer magic" that I'm unable to perform.

So you're telling me you went to Tidal via USB and selected the output below and it doesn't play? 


 

[JLM]

Would you be open to a device that you can select as a speaker in iTunes?

Huh?  What you talking about man?

[JLM]

So you're telling me you went to Tidal via USB and selected the output below and it doesn't play? 

No Jason, MacBook to DSJ via USB works fine.

It was suggested I try using my network to connect MacBook to DSJ.  That didn't work.

My Tidal is set on "Master".  Is that the wrong setting?

[zoom25]

If you don't need DSP and are fine playing bit-perfect files with a simple setup and top sound quality, get a used Bryston BDP player. Play it natively with USB attached storage. Newer models even allow for internal hard drive or SSD mounting. Have that feed your DAC. As a bonus, it can be used as a Roon endpoint as well.

It offers many option for playback, but also a direct and simple one. You buy a hard drive or flash drive and then drop music on it. It will show up on the BDP when you plug in the USB drive to the BDP. You can use an app or web browser to access it, or even the built in screen and the physical buttons on the BDP itself.

[brj]

Roon had the best meta data of any of the players that I evaluated when I finally bought the lifetime membership 2 years ago.  (I too have been conditioned to prefer to 'owning' vs. 'renting', though I appreciate the option.)  Perhaps others have caught up, but it was a very noticeable difference at the time.  I don't run streaming services (Tidal/Qubuz), so I was only looking at Roon's ability to index/manage my own library of music stored on my Network Attached Storage (NAS) unit.  For me, the clincher for Roon was the time savings - I prefer having consistent, well-organized, thorough information with quality album cover art for all of my albums, which gets time consuming to implement oneself when ripping, even if utilizing many of the meta-data services out there.  Roon saved me from having to do that and was at least as good as anything else I'd evaluated sonically.  (I'm comfortable with virtually all computing platforms, but I only had a Mac at the time, so I didn't compare to JRiver, though I did compare to Audirvana+.)  Note that I still run Roon from a 2012 Mac Mini (hardwired Ethernet), which then uses a USB connection to my DAC.  Though for the last 3 weeks I've been running Roon from my Mac laptop (wireless) to a microRendu that provides the USB connection to my DAC.  (I accidentally let some of the magic smoke out of my Mini and didn't want to be without music while it was being repaired.)  Getting Roon up and running on the new hardware combination took less than 5 minutes.

At the time, I compared Roon to my brother's Auralic Ares setup, and Roon was unambiguously the better option in terms of both ease of use and stability.  (I don't specifically recall sonic differences, but I know we wouldn't have preferred Roon if it sounded worse, despite its impressive user interface and music management.)  From some of the comments above, the Auralic Lightning software may have improved in the last 2 years, but at the time, the difference was stark enough that my brother also changed over to Roon and ran it from his Synology NAS unit.  Only recently did he purchase a Nucleus+, which is a very well implemented Roon server for those that don't want to run Roon on one of their existing home computers (whether laptop, NAS, etc.).

I haven't compared Roon (regardless of host computer) to dedicated custom servers having their own software such as Lumin or Aurender, but I actually appreciate the fact Roon isn't married to any particular computing platform, given that computing platforms have historically changed much faster than, say, the state of the art in amplifier design.  I've also been extremely impressed with the responsiveness of the Roon development team and the rate at which they improve their software.  (Note that I only ever looked at computer playback software solutions that could mount my music over my network from my NAS.  The NAS provides a level of data redundancy that a typical server would not.)

I think much of the focus on Roon in this thread is due to its comparative ease of use relative to the OP's expressed knowledge level with computers, coupled with the fact that he can run it using only his existing hardware if desired.  (I saw a reference that the Mac couldn't see the DS Jr over the network, but it wasn't clear to me if that was from within Roon - which will work unless something is wrong - or via another network based software solution.)  Personal preferences will ultimately rule, of course, but Roon is at least competitive with other solutions sonically, and its ease of use is definitely class leading for the amount of flexibility it offers.  For turnkey solutions, Roon on a Nucleus is a good option at the price point discussed ($1398 base Nucleus + $500 lifetime Roon membership = $1898.).  Lumin and Aurender might be as well, but I don't know what they offer near the $2k price point, nor do I have personal experience with their software user interface and level of support/rate of upgrades that they provide.  I believe the Bryston BDP-Pi meets the cost criteria, but the BDP-3 exceeds it.  Again, I don't have personal experience with their software, though Bryston's long history of customer service in general is certainly impressive.

One final comment... I appreciate that learning a new field can be challenging, but regardless of ones preferences, society has become ever more specialized as science and technology advance and our collective knowledge expands, and with that comes an accompanying specialization of language.  This occurs naturally to enable precise, efficient communication within the given domain, though it may understandably seem off-putting to those new to it.  (Math may be the ultimate example of this!)  If folks are motivated to play in a new field, it is very much to their benefit to learn more about it, including its terminology.  For example, most would agree that some doctors are better at explaining things than others, but I've observed that I receive more and better information from all medical practitioners, regardless of their native communication skills, when I make the effort to learn at least some of their terminology.  I've observed similar benefits when learning the specialized language used by my auto mechanic, my electrician, my IT support people at work, etc..  Computer audio is no different in this regard.

[JoshK]

Great post Brian.  Well balanced and thorough.  Appreciated