[Anonamemouse]

Well, yes, but doesn’t that mean that the analogue is converted to digital?

Yes, and this is where things get funny. You listen to your extreme DSD recording played from your Bryston BDP3 converted to analog through some $25.000 DAC with volume control, using cables that you can trade in for a close to new BMW, and then the signal reaches the active loudspeaker.
Where a $5 ADC converts the analog signal back to 24/48 (that is, if you're lucky) digital stream, ripped apart by software into treble, midrange and bass, on to $5 DACs to convert back to analog, amplified by afterthought poweramps to "the best sound WitchdoKrutch has ever heard!"...

In my opinion DSP is a development tool. It makes life easier when designing a crossover. But an analog crossover built with high quality materials will always sound better.
So the best route would be from DAC to analog filter to 24B to loudspeakers.

[CanadianMaestro]

Yes, and this is where things get funny. You listen to your extreme DSD recording played from your Bryston BDP3 converted to analog through some $25.000 DAC with volume control, using cables that you can trade in for a close to new BMW, and then the signal reaches the active loudspeaker.
Where a $5 ADC converts the analog signal back to 24/48 (that is, if you're lucky) digital stream, ripped apart by software into treble, midrange and bass, on to $5 DACs to convert back to analog, amplified by afterthought poweramps to "the best sound WitchdoKrutch has ever heard!"...

That double conversion is a breaker for me. I still don't grasp why a double is needed. No such thing as 100% fidelity, but doing an AD-DA convert can't help it.

[OzarkTom]

Here is a cool trick by Meridian. Start the video about 1 minute. They sit a coin on edge and it never topples over, even played at loud levels.

If I could ever afford it, Meridian would probably be ny top choice. They have built actives since 1980 or before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEezi5f4wy0&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1GgEEaQU283mB8GTxgBxALpEvK16oa7ouiHtrscxkygOtyRliue8Nne1g

[James Tanner]

Folks

As I have said many times "the demo is everything - the rest is rhetoric".

We can discuss all day the plus minuses of A/D or D/A conversions technology differences, driver types, parts quality, chips vs discrete etc. but it really comes down to one thing - have a listen to a quality Active system and decide for your self what you think.

If you compare any of our specific Passive speaker models to any of our specific Active models the performance differences are evident. You may not like the sound of either our Passive or Active speakers but there is no denying the performance advantage of the Active versions in my opinion.

james

[zoom25]

I'm also not fond of being locked into active speakers with DSP where you have to go through AD-DA conversion. Typically, there is a digital input option available which allows you to bypass that extra conversion. If one is fine with the built-in DA, or if that DAC portion is modular allowing for upgradability, then it may be fine. I haven't tried something like the Kii Three or other high-end active offerings with digital capabilities built-in. I'm not sure how the DAC's performance would compare to something like the BDP feeding a BDA. Would it be better, worse, or close enough that it doesn't matter...

Although, active analog speakers with just amps are a good thing, especially in the high-end offerings. Stuff like the active ATC SCM series (SCM 20, 50, 100, 150) get rave reviews over their passive versions. ATC uses Class A/B in them. Nobody has ever said that ATC cheaps out on their amp portions. This also reflects in their price when comparing the active and passive versions. People have tried pairing very expensive mono and stereo amplifiers with these, but the active versions always wins. The active sounds more coherent, dynamic, and linear.

I have both digital and active rigs here at home. You have to evaluate the particular offering at hand rather than saying that the active or passive speaker will be better or worse from the offset. However, if they are identical systems, then the active (assuming it'd done right with a high-end approach) will win each time.

If I was going to upgrade my main room rig, I'd go for an active full range setup. Unfortunately, those aren't cheap.

EDIT: what James said while I was typing.

[witchdoctor]

 I built my main rig with active speakers and it was cheaper than if I went the passive route. I built my desktop rig passive and it costs 5 times more than the active version. I think active can save you money if you shop carefully.
There are more active speaker choices for consumers today than there was 5 years ago and I think this trend will continue.

[JLM]

Well, yes, but doesn’t that mean that the analogue is converted to digital?

Hey guys, don't know where this AD/DA internal conversion idea came from but most active speakers only have analog inputs with no AD/DA conversion going on so the analog input signal remains analog inside the cabinets.

[CanadianMaestro]

^ Bryston's BAX-1 does a double conversion externally (?) before the analog signal hits the active speakers.

Whether it's internal or external to the speakers, you're gonna have a double conversion.

[Mag]

^ Bryston's BAX-1 does a double conversion externally (?) before the analog signal hits the active speakers.

Whether it's internal or external to the speakers, you're gonna have a double conversion.

Conversions are not necessarily detrimental, I have proof they can be beneficial to sound output.

[witchdoctor]

Look at the demo Bryston Partner Storm Audio did with the Ascendo All active system.

https://www.stormaudio.com/en/news/434-2018-august-10th-12th-hk-high-end.html

Video link:
https://youtu.be/4Z3NPKaNDXk

This demo used 32 speakers. I only use half that number in my active HT and consider it HT perfection. I guess JT could take that to another level with an SP4 and active Bryston speakers.

[macrojack]

I bought JBL LSR 705P speakers from Sweetwater. They were delivered yesterday morning and are being driven by an OPPO Sonica streamer. The stark clarity and expressive bass are the first two things I noticed. After that, gradually, I exposed myself to a variety of cuts from my new Spotify Premium subscription.

Until you have experienced a pair of these little wonders working their magic, you would be wise to withhold your speculative observations about active speakers. These are not my first ownership experience with active but they outshine all previous models. I first bought into the concept of hi end powered speakers with the little appreciated NHT M-OO monitors with S-OO sub. These were wonderful at the time and would still excel as desktop speakers. My son uses the set up for his 2.1 video system now.

JBL seems to have decided to take over the recording studio market. From what I see intimated here and there, I must assume the conquest is proceeding apace. Please do yourself a favor by investigating this option. Physically they are large for a desktop but doable for many people who have the surface area. Sonically, they are a bit much for a small room but can be equalized and I plan to damp them with room treatments.

The only realistic objection I can imagine being raised would address the clarity and articulation. It is so graphic, so much in relief from front to back, that you may long for less focus. This is transparency that grabs you. Over time, I expect to grow accustomed to this asset to a point where I insist upon it. Of course, that will add a zero or two to whatever I can find that exceeds their singing prowess.

It could be that we are advancing from the lowly desktop computer speaker rigs we used to receive with a desktop purchase. Better happened and way better happened until we saw the possibility to engage at the hi fidelity level. This is what we are doing now, mostly with AV rigs but certainly in some music only systems as well. Because the hi end industry was never able to get out of their own way by abandoning the old, we were induced to pursue the offerings of the pro world where active studio monitors have been in use for a number of years. That's where I found my JBLs. In case you don't know them, Sweetwater is a prominent on line pro audio vendor located in Ft. Wayne, Indiana.

For those with WAF issues, these 705P units have a compensation setting for use behind video screens. Since these are tiny, a clever man could mask them somewhere in the living room where they feed you directly from a concealed location. Be still my heart. I'm smitten this time.

[witchdoctor]

I bought JBL LSR 705P speakers from Sweetwater. They were delivered yesterday morning and are being driven by an OPPO Sonica streamer. The stark clarity and expressive bass are the first two things I noticed. After that, gradually, I exposed myself to a variety of cuts from my new Spotify Premium subscription.

Until you have experienced a pair of these little wonders working their magic, you would be wise to withhold your speculative observations about active speakers. These are not my first ownership experience with active but they outshine all previous models. I first bought into the concept of hi end powered speakers with the little appreciated NHT M-OO monitors with S-OO sub. These were wonderful at the time and would still excel as desktop speakers. My son uses the set up for his 2.1 video system now.

JBL seems to have decided to take over the recording studio market. From what I see intimated here and there, I must assume the conquest is proceeding apace. Please do yourself a favor by investigating this option. Physically they are large for a desktop but doable for many people who have the surface area. Sonically, they are a bit much for a small room but can be equalized and I plan to damp them with room treatments.

The only realistic objection I can imagine being raised would address the clarity and articulation. It is so graphic, so much in relief from front to back, that you may long for less focus. This is transparency that grabs you. Over time, I expect to grow accustomed to this asset to a point where I insist upon it. Of course, that will add a zero or two to whatever I can find that exceeds their singing prowess.

It could be that we are advancing from the lowly desktop computer speaker rigs we used to receive with a desktop purchase. Better happened and way better happened until we saw the possibility to engage at the hi fidelity level. This is what we are doing now, mostly with AV rigs but certainly in some music only systems as well. Because the hi end industry was never able to get out of their own way by abandoning the old, we were induced to pursue the offerings of the pro world where active studio monitors have been in use for a number of years. That's where I found my JBLs. In case you don't know them, Sweetwater is a prominent on line pro audio vendor located in Ft. Wayne, Indiana.

For those with WAF issues, these 705P units have a compensation setting for use behind video screens. Since these are tiny, a clever man could mask them somewhere in the living room where they feed you directly from a concealed location. Be still my heart. I'm smitten this time.

Congratulations! I recommend getting some Isoacosutic stands for your speakers. I have the passive JBL 230's sitting on them in my desktop system and it makes a difference.

[mr_bill]

I bought JBL LSR 705P speakers from Sweetwater. They were delivered yesterday morning and are being driven by an OPPO Sonica streamer. The stark clarity and expressive bass are the first two things I noticed. After that, gradually, I exposed myself to a variety of cuts from my new Spotify Premium subscription.

Until you have experienced a pair of these little wonders working their magic, you would be wise to withhold your speculative observations about active speakers. These are not my first ownership experience with active but they outshine all previous models. I first bought into the concept of hi end powered speakers with the little appreciated NHT M-OO monitors with S-OO sub. These were wonderful at the time and would still excel as desktop speakers. My son uses the set up for his 2.1 video system now.

JBL seems to have decided to take over the recording studio market. From what I see intimated here and there, I must assume the conquest is proceeding apace. Please do yourself a favor by investigating this option. Physically they are large for a desktop but doable for many people who have the surface area. Sonically, they are a bit much for a small room but can be equalized and I plan to damp them with room treatments.

The only realistic objection I can imagine being raised would address the clarity and articulation. It is so graphic, so much in relief from front to back, that you may long for less focus. This is transparency that grabs you. Over time, I expect to grow accustomed to this asset to a point where I insist upon it. Of course, that will add a zero or two to whatever I can find that exceeds their singing prowess.

It could be that we are advancing from the lowly desktop computer speaker rigs we used to receive with a desktop purchase. Better happened and way better happened until we saw the possibility to engage at the hi fidelity level. This is what we are doing now, mostly with AV rigs but certainly in some music only systems as well. Because the hi end industry was never able to get out of their own way by abandoning the old, we were induced to pursue the offerings of the pro world where active studio monitors have been in use for a number of years. That's where I found my JBLs. In case you don't know them, Sweetwater is a prominent on line pro audio vendor located in Ft. Wayne, Indiana.

For those with WAF issues, these 705P units have a compensation setting for use behind video screens. Since these are tiny, a clever man could mask them somewhere in the living room where they feed you directly from a concealed location. Be still my heart. I'm smitten this time.

Macro,
Are you using your new 705P in your big rig audiophile system?
I know you've had some really good equipment in the past.
Thanks,
Bill

[macrojack]

Congratulations! I recommend getting some Isoacosutic stands for your speakers. I have the passive JBL 230's sitting on them in my desktop system and it makes a difference.

The Sweetwater salesman I worked with recommended PROJAX over Iso Acoustic for isolation. They come in a small box of 8 - 4 under each speaker. Basically, each of the 8 pucks can be dismantled into 3 pieces which can be locked together differently to create differing heights. I wanted my speakers angled up so I removed a piece from each of the pucks under the back end of each speaker. Cost for the box of 8 adjustable pucks is $49.95. I may be buying some more to put under electronics as well.

[macrojack]

Macro,
Are you using your new 705P in your big rig audiophile system?
I know you've had some really good equipment in the past.
Thanks,
Bill

Hola, Mr. Bill -

I am using the 705s in the TV room where I run pure stereo. It is now a big rig audiophile system. As mentioned I have the OPPO Sonica. Also using a 27 inch iMac Retina and an LG 65 inch OLED. Imac is headed for the living room along with Sonica because I have an OPPO UDP 205 on hand and a 6 core Mac Mini on the way to the TV system.

The main rig in the living room has my big AH300 horns and the OPPO 205 right now driving a Crown XLS 1500 amp. For now I am planning to downsize and will probably sell the big horns at some point along the way. As it stands right now, I'll just be bringing the Sonica into that room where it can then stream wirelessly until I return ethernet to that area. In the TV room the Mac Minie will become the streamer/server. Maybe I'll get another pair of 705s to replace my horns when the time comes around.

[brj]

This thread is complicated by the fact that it's in the Bryston circle, but the topic was really a question about active vs. passive speakers in general.

Bryston's active approach appears very well thought out, though there is more than one way to implement an active system.  James's comment about the demo being of prime importance is valid, however, which is why I've made a point of visiting their room at the last several RMAFs - and been impressed.   (Personally, I might stop short of calling everything else rhetoric, as it can be difficult to translate what you hear in a demo back to your own system - more so if you're changing multiple variables at once.  Understanding the 'hows' and 'whys' of an implementation definitely helps with such translations.)

Having said that, I'd encourage folks to understand the various means by which an active speaker system can be implemented and the compromises associated with each, googling if necessary.  The only requirement for the 'active' definition to apply is that you have 1 amplification channel per driver and no crossover between those amplification channels and their associated drivers.  (To really complicate matters, some systems are partially active, using a traditional passive crossover between the tweeter and mids, but an active crossover from mids to woofers/subwoofers.  And even in an active system, you may still have passive components, though not crossovers, between the amps and drivers.  Examples include resistor pads or resonance damping networks, etc..)

The line-level crossover implemented upstream of the amplification channels in an active speaker system can be analog or digital.  If digital, you will add an additional AD/DA conversion.  If analog, you will not.

AD/DA conversions can be implemented to sufficient quality levels that it's arguable whether they should pose a significant concern in actual practice.  Certainly they shouldn't immediately bother the informed audiophile if more fundamental concerns haven't been addressed, like acoustically treating your room in a manner consistent with the radiation pattern of your speakers!  And having the line-level crossover implemented digitally does provide more flexibility, which may or may not be of benefit in your system.

For what it's worth, my system has both.  I have an analog line-level crossover followed by traditional external amps for my mains (no AD/DA conversion), and a digital speaker management unit (with additional AD/DA) in front of my subwoofers with their integrated amps.  My pre-amp has dual outputs, and thus sends the same signal to the analog line-level crossover and the digital speaker management unit.  (I should note that I perform driver EQ digitally on my server before I even get to my DAC, a task that the Bryston BAX unit performs in addition to its crossover duties.)

And the minute James and Co. release a general purpose version of the BAX, you can bet I'll be looking to audition it!

[witchdoctor]

If you want a nice demo playlist for active speakers and you subscribe to Spotify try a playlist called Curt's Crate. It feels like you are in the club if you crank it

Any other suggestions from other members always appreciated.

[dburna]

The Sweetwater salesman I worked with recommended PROJAX over Iso Acoustic for isolation. They come in a small box of 8 - 4 under each speaker. Basically, each of the 8 pucks can be dismantled into 3 pieces which can be locked together differently to create differing heights. I wanted my speakers angled up so I removed a piece from each of the pucks under the back end of each speaker. Cost for the box of 8 adjustable pucks is $49.95. I may be buying some more to put under electronics as well.

Macrojack, did the Sweetwater salesman say why he recommended the PROJAX over IsoAcoustic? Better performance? More adjustable?Or better bang-for-the-buck? Also, did you consider and/or listen to the JBL 708Ps in comparison? Just wondering if you compared them or ruled them out for size/cost reasons. I like the Iso Acoustics I have on my desktop, but they are a bit wobbly in the taller configuration I am using. Always makes me a little leery when someone comes into my home office and gets near the desk.

I am tentatively planning to drive to Sweetwater in about 3 weeks to demo some name studio monitors for just this very purpose. Combo of curiosity, future research (downsizing system), and because, well, it's not too far from me and why not? Maybe I'll come home with a pair of JBLs.....or a new guitar......just to tick off the Missus.   

Best, -dGB
 

[macrojack]

Didn't ask him. Just assumed it was driven by "new gadget", best margin, or points toward a trip to Disney World. Couldn't conjure a reason then nor now to inquire.

I never heard either speaker prior to decision or purchase - - just jumped in. I reasoned that the right people were saying the same right things about the M2 lineage much too consistently for a mediocre conjurer such as myself to raise any justifiable objections. That's when I phoned Sweetwater.

I can empathize with your concerns about the stability of your monitors. Mine are only about 10 lbs. each. Somebody probably offers a power cord that weighs as much. Something many of these pro monitors come with are anchor points to "fly" the speakers in churches, clubs, theaters, etc. So happens my speaker have such points - top and bottom. So I'm idling mentally about how I might use those points to mount my own. Could you do that and report back? Anything that domesticates these beasts and/or relaxes the mass anxiety surrounding their very mention, deserves consideration by us true believers. I bet some of you guys have more in speaker cable than I do in my 705P JBLs. You really need to buy a pair of these bad boys.

[charmerci]

I can empathize with your concerns about the stability of your monitors. Mine are only about 10 lbs. each. Somebody probably offers a power cord that weighs as much. Something many of these pro monitors come with are anchor points to "fly" the speakers in churches, clubs, theaters, etc. So happens my speaker have such points - top and bottom. So I'm idling mentally about how I might use those points to mount my own. Could you do that and report back? Anything that domesticates these beasts and/or relaxes the mass anxiety surrounding their very mention, deserves consideration by us true believers. I bet some of you guys have more in speaker cable than I do in my 705P JBLs. You really need to buy a pair of these bad boys.

Only 10 lbs? Sounds like the cabinets are the weak point - like in my 305P MKII's. Seems like they could use some internal bracing also as I have done.