[Stu Pitt]

Not really.  I heard both the passive and active versions of Paradigm 20.  I preferred the passive version, although to be fair it was at a substantially higher total cost using a very expensive McIntosh amplifier, so not a completely fair comparison.

My take away from that was that although active speakers certainly have the capability to outshine their passive stablemates, if the internal electronics are low budget or not perfectly executed, it can be a wash depending on the quality and synergy of the passive amplifier.

What's kind of interesting is that many audiophiles often spend a lot of time, effort and money to isolate their external amplifiers with sophisticated isolation feet and platforms, yet many active speakers with internal amplification often use a set of simple rubber washers to attempt to isolate the amplifier from the greatest source of vibration in the system - the speaker itself.

Are they actually active, or just powered? Powered and active aren’t one in the same.

[Stu Pitt]

i think we need to differentiate between audiophile and lifestyle speakers..

Yup. And differentiate between active and powered.

The audiophile companies are making the “lifestyle” type speakers. And very well too. Bryston and Naim with their Muso line come to mind immediately.

[Elizabeth]

Like the difference between a manual transmission car and an automatic.
Not many manuals left available in USA. But some. When the manuals are all gone. I will just be buying used cars forevermore... Since I drive and enjoy a manual with a clutch.

Same for speakers, when the old ways vanish, I will buy used. Simple.
I ask though.. If Bryston main claim to fame is amplifiers... Why get involved in a speaker system which end the amplifier as we know it? Isn't it then no amplifiers per se.. just speakers, and IMO the speaker market is far far tougher than the amplifier market.
To someone buying a powered speaker, the way the speaker is powered is an afterthought TOTALLY. So in effect, all the Byrston brand power of its amplifier fame just vanishes.. Poof.

[JLM]

Paradigm Active 20 monitors are active.  I'm shocked that anyone could prefer the Studio 20 to the Active 20.  Like James and Salk have found, that there isn't a market for here, which is what this thread is about.  Thanks to advancements in electronics the line between lifestyle and hifi is thinning out. 

Going the passive route is like stuffing an engine from one company into a car body from another company.  Can be done, lots of mechanics TV shows do it, but why not simply buy a whole car from a good company? 

Actives have a low voltage crossover that schematically goes between the preamp/source and the power amp(s).  Powered schematically are the same as passives, schematically the high voltage crossover goes between the power amp(s) and the drivers.  Low voltage crossovers can be simple or very complex, but high voltage crossovers have to be simple. 

[witchdoctor]

18 years ago I auditioned Paradigm Studio 20 (passive 2-way monitors) versus their Active 20 (same driver/cabinet).  No contest, dynamics, frequency response, and bass response were all vastly superior.  Even imaging was better.  It was an audio epiphany.  All my speakers since have been active (or single driver which is active by default).

Those are Active 20's you see mounted as the height speakers on the tall stands. I also have a pair of passive 20's. I biamped the passive 20's using the Carver 5 channel amp and they sounded great...until I compared them to my active 20's. I was using them as wide channels until I replaced them the  Shift A2 which is active and matches great with the reference active speakers even though it has a smaller driver. Here you can see the active 40 surround channel, the active 20 surround height channel and the Shift A2 as my top surround or VOG channel.

[barryso]

I've generally liked many of the active speakers I've heard over the years.  They tend to be dynamic and that puts them ahead of a lot of passive speakers.  Dynamics is often the limiting factor in otherwise nice speakers.

Most of the active speakers I've heard have been studio monitors like the Dynaudio and JBL active monitors.  They aren't expensive (especially considering they have amps in them) and seem to shoot above their price point.  There's been far more expensive gear in my house over the years that didn't sound as good.

Selah Audio had a pair of self powered monitors at the Lone Star Audio Fest last year that were just superb.  They were better than a great deal of more expensive gear and ran about $5000.

Actives are quick and easy and if you like the sound you're set.  Audiophiles tend to like to try different equipment, though, so an active speaker inhibits experimentation.

And having been around audio gear for so many years I know that no one system is going to make me happy all of the time.  So there are always a couple of sets of speakers around that have very distinct personalities.  Same thing with amplifiers.

When it's time to rock out the SET amp isn't going to do it as well as a higher powered device.  But at night listening to jazz that SET amp is going to be magical.

Audiophiles are going to want to play and mix and match.  Non audiophiles are probably more inclined to hear a good active speaker and be more than thrilled with the sound.  They can be amazing.

[witchdoctor]

Reading through this thread, I can’t help but wonder if everyone is on the same page regarding what “active speakers” genuinely are. People use active and powered interchangeably, when they’re not one in the same.

I’ll probably get proven wrong, but active speakers use an active crossover. Built-in amplification may or may not be present. Powered speakers have built-in amplification. Most that I’ve seen do not have an active crossover.

The we have the issue of which market. Mass market? Audiophile market? Pro audio/studio market? The review calls this trend :

Back to what I think is the original intent of the thread...

I don’t see truly active speakers dominating the audiophile market due to a simple thing - cost. While there are “cost is no object” people out there, they’re few and far between. An active 3 way design is going to take 6 channels of amplification too, driving up the cost further than the speakers and crossover alone. 6 quality channels are going to cost more that 2. And best of luck to you finding a great sounding and affordable 6 channel amp. More like 2 stereo amps or 6 monoblocks.

I’d love to be a cost is no object guy. That $2 billion lottery drawing passed me by, so I’m stuck in the struggle for the foreseeable future. I’m not alone in that one.

Look at what James has posted here and elsewhere. Active designs don’t sell very well. His bean counters don’t want him going all out with active designs because there’s no money in it for them. Audio companies aren’t exactly charitable organizations that aren’t concerned about turning a profit. No profit AND no market isn’t a recipe any business wants to follow. The ones that followed that plan followed it unintentionally or unknowingly. They’d comment, but they’re not around to defend their actions.

You think audiophiles object to cost? I just don't see that as an active speaker barrier for audiophiles. Check out the reviews of the Active Kef LS50 at around $2K all in. How is cost a barrier?

https://www.whathifi.com/kef/ls50-wireless/review

This is an active speaker for the consumer audiophile market NOT the pro market. I don't argue about current sales trends but we are debating FUTURE trends. From the review:

"Active speakers, while nothing new, could be a building block for an alternative solution."

I think that sums things up nicely.

[LesterSleepsIn]

I’ve read reviews of active speakers where the reviewers praise highly the dynamic range and impressive resolution but found the actives to be slightly cold and they missed the “musicality” of their favorite passive set-ups.

I wonder if this is what Dennis Jones was thinking in designing the new (and now almost in stores) Elac Navis ARB -51 actives when he decided against Class D digital amps and built in 300 watts of Bash amp analog amplification:

Total Amplifier Power: 300 Watts Total
Bass Amplifier: 160 Watt Bash Amplifier
Midrange Amplifier: 100 Watt Bash Amplifier
Tweeter Amplifier: 40 Watt Class AB Amplifier

Anyone have opinions on the benefits - or drawbacks - of using Bash amps as compared to the DSP-ICE amps? Would the Bash amps allow for more “musicality”?

Best,
Lester

[witchdoctor]

No doubt about the sonic advantages of active speakers. 
Nevertheless...
Isn't ironic that Paradigm dropped their active speakers after a relatively short run??

??? Paradigm still sells active speakers, check out the Shift collection and if you got deep pockets their flagship speaker the Persona 9H.

[witchdoctor]

I’ve read reviews of active speakers where the reviewers praise highly the dynamic range and impressive resolution but found the actives to be slightly cold and they missed the “musicality” of their favorite passive set-ups.

I wonder if this is what Dennis Jones was thinking in designing the new (and now almost in stores) Elac Navis ARB -51 actives when he decided against Class D digital amps and built in 300 watts of Bash amp analog amplification:

Total Amplifier Power: 300 Watts Total
Bass Amplifier: 160 Watt Bash Amplifier
Midrange Amplifier: 100 Watt Bash Amplifier
Tweeter Amplifier: 40 Watt Class AB Amplifier

Anyone have opinions on the benefits - or drawbacks - of using Bash amps as compared to the DSP-ICE amps? Would the Bash amps allow for more “musicality”?

Best,
Lester

Do what I did and have both. I use an active HT and a passive desktop system, it's all good. Just keep in mind that you have to spend more on a passive system but that's the price to pay if you like to tinker with amps, wires, and such.

As far as an amp choice I preferred the class A/B Carver amp with my JBL 230's rather than the class D in the active 305's. Both JBL models are based on trickle down tech from the flagship JBL M2 monitor. The only "problem" is the passive system (speakers+ amp+ speaker wire) was about 5 times more expensive .

[witchdoctor]

Are they actually active, or just powered? Powered and active aren’t one in the same.

Active 20 v2 Specifications

Design
2-driver, 2 way with built in electronic crossover and amplifiers
Crossover
3rd order electro/acoustic at 1.5kHz
Amplifier
High current, discrete output, Powersaver auto on/off, thermal protection
Amplifier Features
Bi-amplified: 325w/125w RMS for bass/midrange drivers, 150w/50w RMS for high frequency drivers
Frequency Response   On-Axis
±2dB from 50 Hz - 22 kHz
Frequency Response   30° Off-Axis
±2dB from 50 Hz - 20 kHz
High Frequency Driver
25mm PAL™ pure-aluminum dome, diecast heatsink chassis, ferro-fluid damped/cooled
Mid/Bass Frequency Driver
170mm, MLP™ mica-polymer cone, AVS™ diecast heatsink chassis, 38mm voice-coil
Low Frequency Extension
36Hz (DIN)
Weight
70 lbs. (32 kg)
Dimensions   HxWxD
14.5" × 8.25" × 12.625"
(36.8cm × 21.0cm × 32.1cm)

[mrhyfy]

??? Paradigm still sells active speakers, check out the Shift collection and if you got deep pockets their flagship speaker the Persona 9H.

Yes, of course, I was thinking of those 2 speakers when I said they were out of the active speaker business.
The shift is one model, limited appeal, nice but not audiophile and the Persona is only active in the bass region, if I'm not mistaken.
The Persona also introduces room correction which is another issue above and beyond being active.

[witchdoctor]

Yes, of course, I was thinking of those 2 speakers when I said they were out of the active speaker business.
The shift is one model, limited appeal, nice but not audiophile and the Persona is only active in the bass region, if I'm not mistaken.
The Persona also introduces room correction which is another issue above and beyond being active.

Actually the Shift series is more than one active model. It includes active wireless speakers, active soundbars, etc. I think this actually supports the argument that the speaker market is "shifting" toward active speakers.

[mrhyfy]

Once again, I stand corrected. I need to be more specific.  Should have written one model line.

[kingdeezie]

As is always the case, it seems like these types of conversations turn into a tug of war of absolutes.

All active speakers are clearly not better than any passive speaker. That would be absurd to suggest. Things are still built to a price point, and if a company is including an active crossover and amplification, concessions are made elsewhere be it drivers or enclosure.

Comparing Paradigm active speakers to their passive counter parts seems useless. The crossover parts quality in the passive Paradigm are going to be abysmally mediocre. Again, things are built to a price point. An $1800 dollar mass market pair of speakers is going to have likely no more than 500 dollars worth of parts involved. Which means, 250 for each speaker. I bet the crossover in those speakers costs dollars. They get the job done, but aren't providing anywhere near the best sound quality.

As for the Bryston Model T, we are talking a $34000 dollar pair of speakers with active crossovers. Amps not provided. This is an entirely different ballgame. This provides the end user plenty of pick and choose ability, while still maintaining the benefits of active crossover construction.

However, again, nothing is absolute. And, what kind of sonic signature is the active crossover imparting on the sound? Nothing is benign in audio.

It would be interesting to see someone take a pair of passive Model Ts, and construct an all out crossover with the highest quality parts. Jupiter or Duelund caps, top of the line resistors, etc, etc.

Compare that in the same system to the active, and see how they compare.     

[LesterSleepsIn]

Actives are quick and easy and if you like the sound you're set.  Audiophiles tend to like to try different equipment, though, so an active speaker inhibits experimentation.

And having been around audio gear for so many years I know that no one system is going to make me happy all of the time.  So there are always a couple of sets of speakers around that have very distinct personalities.  Same thing with amplifiers.

When it's time to rock out the SET amp isn't going to do it as well as a higher powered device.  But at night listening to jazz that SET amp is going to be magical.

Audiophiles are going to want to play and mix and match.  Non audiophiles are probably more inclined to hear a good active speaker and be more than thrilled with the sound.  They can be amazing.

Those comments sum up this discussion beautifully. I doubt I’ll ever be without passives and seperates; I like to mix and match. Plus I have a couple 1000 lps that I like to spin, swapping in and out different tables, cartridges, amps, tube amps, etc. I think the ability to experiment and swap out components is what makes this a hobby ... and a fun one at that. The Actives can indeed be amazing and have great WAF appeal ... and that in itself is important.

Cheers,
Lestet

[JLM]

I’ve read reviews of active speakers where the reviewers praise highly the dynamic range and impressive resolution but found the actives to be slightly cold and they missed the “musicality” of their favorite passive set-ups.

I wonder if this is what Dennis Jones was thinking in designing the new (and now almost in stores) Elac Navis ARB -51 actives when he decided against Class D digital amps and built in 300 watts of Bash amp analog amplification:

Total Amplifier Power: 300 Watts Total
Bass Amplifier: 160 Watt Bash Amplifier
Midrange Amplifier: 100 Watt Bash Amplifier
Tweeter Amplifier: 40 Watt Class AB Amplifier

Anyone have opinions on the benefits - or drawbacks - of using Bash amps as compared to the DSP-ICE amps? Would the Bash amps allow for more “musicality”?

Best,
Lester

Yes studio monitors (nearly all are active) have the reputation of being dry and analytical.  Much of that can be attributed to low cost models and the simple fact that they are used for work, not entertainment.  Musicality can be thought of as a form of coloration/exaggeration to increase enjoyment, like a cupcake piled high with frosting.

The Elac use of Bash in the bass and midrange amps of the NAVIS ARB-51 is explained in this video (Hans is quite knowledgable):

https://youtu.be/ETbEaI9FZ8s

Most active speakers only have analog inputs, so feel free to enjoy your vinyl with them.

[Bendingwave]

As is always the case, it seems like these types of conversations turn into a tug of war of absolutes.

All active speakers are clearly not better than any passive speaker. That would be absurd to suggest. Things are still built to a price point, and if a company is including an active crossover and amplification, concessions are made elsewhere be it drivers or enclosure.

Comparing Paradigm active speakers to their passive counter parts seems useless. The crossover parts quality in the passive Paradigm are going to be abysmally mediocre. Again, things are built to a price point. An $1800 dollar mass market pair of speakers is going to have likely no more than 500 dollars worth of parts involved. Which means, 250 for each speaker. I bet the crossover in those speakers costs dollars. They get the job done, but aren't providing anywhere near the best sound quality.

As for the Bryston Model T, we are talking a $34000 dollar pair of speakers with active crossovers. Amps not provided. This is an entirely different ballgame. This provides the end user plenty of pick and choose ability, while still maintaining the benefits of active crossover construction.

However, again, nothing is absolute. And, what kind of sonic signature is the active crossover imparting on the sound? Nothing is benign in audio.

It would be interesting to see someone take a pair of passive Model Ts, and construct an all out crossover with the highest quality parts. Jupiter or Duelund caps, top of the line resistors, etc, etc.

Compare that in the same system to the active, and see how they compare.   

Good post.....I agree that all active is not better then any passive speaker....This is one of the main reason why passives will never be obsolete.


Another thing I was pondering on is that with active it has room corrections to correct reflections etc.....but if one has a acoustically treated room and then one tried to compare a active vs. a passive in that acoustically treated room would there be a detectable difference by ones ear?

[LesterSleepsIn]

Most active speakers only have analog inputs, so feel free to enjoy your vinyl with them.

Well, yes, but doesn’t that mean that the analogue is converted to digital?

[brj]

Crossovers for active speakers can be analog or digital, just like passive speakers.  (So if analog, no additional AD/DA stage is required.)

Amps and crossovers for active speakers can be internal to the speaker cabinet, or external, just like with passive speakers.

(Passive speakers with an internal amplifier are usually called powered speakers, which are distinct from active speakers in that they still have a traditional crossover between the amp and the drivers inside the cabinet.  Many conflate 'powered' and 'active', however, as the terminology is not always precisely used.)