[JLM]

I would not necessarily call it 'crude'. (The Bryston active approach that uses external amps is crude -JLM }

Quality external amplifiers do have some advantages when it comes to Discrete amplifier design over Chips,  power output capability, power supply design, size, etc. and the ability to allow the 'trophy' customer much more flexibility to decide what amplifier type to use on what part of his system as well as trying different amplifiers and crossovers in the future as we all know the audiophiles like myself prefer.

james

Sorry, should have qualified what I meant by "crude":  at Bryston prices it's crude to use off the shelf amps versus amps specifically designed for each driver.  OTOH I do agree that external amps have advantages, but IMO they pale in comparison to the importance of the drivers, cabinets, room, and setup.  And note that nearly all active speakers use class A/B or D built-in amps. 

[JLM]

JLM - you are just back from restricted banishment land, and from the get go you trash a mans product in his own circle! Amazing.....

I wonder what you'd call the "stuff" hiding in your cherished JBL 708p? Have you had a look?

gab

Allow me to apologize to James and all readers.  Was in too much of a hurry to clearly express myself.

I don't crack open the cabinets of my gear, gave up DIY 37 years ago, call me a wimp.  Have finally learned to pick gear by the company (one that has been around a long time, has lots of in-house R&D and manufacturing resources, and is devoted to audio and in providing good service after the sale).  Like JBL pro, PS Audio (my DirectStream Junior DAC/preamp/streamer), and Dynaudio (my previous active speakers). 

[witchdoctor]

Sorry, should have qualified what I meant by "crude":  at Bryston prices it's crude to use off the shelf amps versus amps specifically designed for each driver.  OTOH I do agree that external amps have advantages, but IMO they pale in comparison to the importance of the drivers, cabinets, room, and setup.  And note that nearly all active speakers use class A/B or D built-in amps.

Did you know JBL offers both passive and active versions of the series 7 speakers? The 3 Series is active but the Studio 2 series are passive. I auditioned the 305 and 308 in Guitar Center but preferred the passive Studio 230 bookshelf in my office system. The 3 series use class D amps and I have the 230's hooked up to a Carver amp that uses a very different design. The trade off is cost. The Carver amp and Studio 230's are about $1400 retail vs. $300 for the 305's. All of those series use trickle down tech from the M2's.









http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/recording-broadcast/7-series

[veloceleste]

Allow me to apologize to James and all readers.  Was in too much of a hurry to clearly express myself.

Have finally learned to pick gear by the company (one that has been around a long time, has lots of in-house R&D and manufacturing resources, and is devoted to audio and in providing good service after the sale).  Like JBL pro, PS Audio (my DirectStream Junior DAC/preamp/streamer), and Dynaudio (my previous active speakers).

I think Bryston fits that description whether you prefer their equipment or not.

[OzarkTom]

+1!  Passives sound muddy, muted, and dull compared to my JBL 708P 2-way monitors (constant directivity tweeter, 8" ported woofer, lots of built in controls, $4000/pair USD MSRP).  At age 62 they are my "last great" speakers.

 

Passives sound muddied and dull? You need to come to my place and hear my Alnico full range speakers. Bring your JBL's over and we will make a comparison.

[witchdoctor]

 

Passives sound muddied and dull? You need to come to my place and hear my Alnico full range speakers. Bring your JBL's over and we will make a comparison.

James already posted a comparison of the passive T and active T. I think the point being is that active models are superior, no disrespect to Alnico.

[witchdoctor]

This just shows the advantage of the accuracy improvement of the Sound Power and Frequency response improvements attainable with Active systems to say nothing of the vast improvement in dynamic contrasts, inner micro detail and a host of other advantages active systems provide.

james

JT- You need to marry your best in class SP4 to a fully active system at a future audio show (maybe active TOW or active mini A). Trust me, a fully active HT will make your face melt from smiling too much.

[OzarkTom]

James already posted a comparison of the passive T and active T. I think the point being is that active models are superior, no disrespect to Alnico.

Has James ever owned a pair of Alnico speakers with no crossovers? Alnico is not a brand, it is the name of a special driver. But I am sure you already know that. Right? Maybe the ones he compared was superior, but there are many other speakers that are out there. No one has ever heard them all.

[witchdoctor]

Has James ever owned a pair of Alnico speakers with no crossovers? Alnico is not a brand, it is the name of a special driver. But I am sure you already know that. Right? Maybe the ones he compared was superior, but there are many other speakers that are out there. No one has ever heard them all.

Why would I argue with the vendor as to which speaker is better? My Paradigm Active 40's are better than their passive counter part, just ask Paradigm and they'll tell you. Go check out what Jim Salk posted about his active speakers in the Salk Circle. You have 3 SOA vendors all saying that active is better. Maybe, just maybe, they are on to something 

From Soundstage review of Paradigm Active 40's:

"In fact, when I asked the designers at Paradigm which technology was better, active or passive (since the company makes both types of speakers), I couldn’t even finish my sentence before the word "active" was rushed back at me. There was just no second thought about it."

https://www.soundstage.com/revequip/paradigm_active40.htm

[witchdoctor]

The all active immersive setup at Abbey Road studios. Can you imagine using Active T bed channels and active mini T
 or Mini A height channels in a similar setup? JT, I'll bet this would get best of show at your next event showcasing the SP4:

[JLM]

I think Bryston fits that description whether you prefer their equipment or not.

+1

[James Tanner]

Has James ever owned a pair of Alnico speakers with no crossovers? Alnico is not a brand, it is the name of a special driver. But I am sure you already know that. Right? Maybe the ones he compared was superior, but there are many other speakers that are out there. No one has ever heard them all.

Hi

I agree Tom there are excellent passive speakers out there and a well designed Passive speaker is certainly going to outperform a poorly designed Active speaker.  But all things being equal  (same philosophy and manufacturer) I have found that active designs just provide more performance advantages over passive systems of the same ilk.

james

[JLM]

 

Passives sound muddied and dull? You need to come to my place and hear my Alnico full range speakers. Bring your JBL's over and we will make a comparison.

That's generally how I would describe my Bob Brines FTA2000 floor standing transmission line speakers (design uses Martin King's MathCad application) equipped with Fostex F200A 8" extended range AlNiCo drivers ($575 each when last available, rated 30-20,000 Hz at 8 ohms, 89 dB/w/m, no whizzer, EnABL'd by Bud Purvine who developed the concept) compared to the JBL 708P monitors.  The FTA2000s are wired directly to mono-blocks using DSP to replace baffle step and Zobel circuits, and supplemented with Late Ceiling Splash tweeters (as suggested by Duke LeJeune) and a CSS 10" sealed XBL^2 sub.  Much less dynamic/detailed and much more recessed, but with better imaging versus the 708Ps.  Before the JBLs thought the FTA2000s were a destination speaker (had heard nothing I preferred).

[JLM]

Why would I argue with the vendor as to which speaker is better? My Paradigm Active 40's are better than their passive counter part, just ask Paradigm and they'll tell you. Go check out what Jim Salk posted about his active speakers in the Salk Circle. You have 3 SOA vendors all saying that active is better. Maybe, just maybe, they are on to something 

From Soundstage review of Paradigm Active 40's:

"In fact, when I asked the designers at Paradigm which technology was better, active or passive (since the company makes both types of speakers), I couldn’t even finish my sentence before the word "active" was rushed back at me. There was just no second thought about it."

https://www.soundstage.com/revequip/paradigm_active40.htm

18 years ago I auditioned Paradigm Studio 20 (passive 2-way monitors) versus their Active 20 (same driver/cabinet).  No contest, dynamics, frequency response, and bass response were all vastly superior.  Even imaging was better.  It was an audio epiphany.  All my speakers since have been active (or single driver which is active by default).

[Stu Pitt]

Reading through this thread, I can’t help but wonder if everyone is on the same page regarding what “active speakers” genuinely are. People use active and powered interchangeably, when they’re not one in the same.

I’ll probably get proven wrong, but active speakers use an active crossover. Built-in amplification may or may not be present. Powered speakers have built-in amplification. Most that I’ve seen do not have an active crossover.

The we have the issue of which market. Mass market? Audiophile market? Pro audio/studio market?

Back to what I think is the original intent of the thread...

I don’t see truly active speakers dominating the audiophile market due to a simple thing - cost. While there are “cost is no object” people out there, they’re few and far between. An active 3 way design is going to take 6 channels of amplification too, driving up the cost further than the speakers and crossover alone. 6 quality channels are going to cost more that 2. And best of luck to you finding a great sounding and affordable 6 channel amp. More like 2 stereo amps or 6 monoblocks.

I’d love to be a cost is no object guy. That $2 billion lottery drawing passed me by, so I’m stuck in the struggle for the foreseeable future. I’m not alone in that one.

Look at what James has posted here and elsewhere. Active designs don’t sell very well. His bean counters don’t want him going all out with active designs because there’s no money in it for them. Audio companies aren’t exactly charitable organizations that aren’t concerned about turning a profit. No profit AND no market isn’t a recipe any business wants to follow. The ones that followed that plan followed it unintentionally or unknowingly. They’d comment, but they’re not around to defend their actions.

[mrhyfy]

18 years ago I auditioned Paradigm Studio 20 (passive 2-way monitors) versus their Active 20 (same driver/cabinet).  No contest, dynamics, frequency response, and bass response were all vastly superior.  Even imaging was better.  It was an audio epiphany.  All my speakers since have been active (or single driver which is active by default).

No doubt about the sonic advantages of active speakers. 
Nevertheless...
Isn't ironic that Paradigm dropped their active speakers after a relatively short run??

[Stu Pitt]

If we’re talking about the mass market...

One doesn’t need to look much further than Best Buy and the like. Powered wireless speakers and soundbars dominate. The traditional stereo, even a POS Sony in a rack system or the boombox type systems are more or less gone. Stuff like Sonos powered speakers dominate. Or the cheaper Bluetooth speakers. And soundbars.

I was in Best Buy on Black Friday (my first time ever, and hopefully last time). I saw a short isle with about 6 receivers and about 4 pairs each of tower and bookshelf speakers. No one was getting trampled for those. It was basically a cut-through isle, which shows you the importance of displaying them to customers. Soundbars and Sonos type stuff were easily visible and in high traffic areas. That tells you the importance of them.

[CanadianMaestro]

 Active designs don’t sell very well. His bean counters don’t want him going all out with active designs because there’s no money in it for them. No profit AND no market isn’t a recipe any business wants to follow. 

Yup.

[mrhyfy]

i think we need to differentiate between audiophile and lifestyle speakers..

[srb]

Isn't ironic that Paradigm dropped their active speakers after a relatively short run??

Not really.  I heard both the passive and active versions of Paradigm 20.  I preferred the passive version, although to be fair it was at a substantially higher total cost using a very expensive McIntosh amplifier, so not a completely fair comparison.

My take away from that was that although active speakers certainly have the capability to outshine their passive stablemates, if the internal electronics are low budget or not perfectly executed, it can be a wash depending on the quality and synergy of the passive amplifier.

What's kind of interesting is that many audiophiles often spend a lot of time, effort and money to isolate their external amplifiers with sophisticated isolation feet and platforms, yet many active speakers with internal amplification often use a set of simple rubber washers to attempt to isolate the amplifier from the greatest source of vibration in the system - the speaker itself.