Omega junior 8 xrs and a 45 SET amp?

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Gapx

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Omega junior 8 xrs and a 45 SET amp?
« on: 25 Oct 2018, 10:46 am »
Hi,

I was lurking quite a bit in this forum (although I can't use the search :( ), and then some weeks ago I pulled the trigger on some junior 8s, pix will follow as soon as Louis sends me some ;) .
In the meantime I had some time to think about a new amp and kind of set (;)) my mind on the 45 tube, only problem being it's only 1,5Watts (although Kron for example says their kr45 is 2-5 Watt, I'm still trying to understand if the tube or the way the tube is fed by the amp is the Watt-determine factor, it would be great if someone here could enlighten me on this ^^)

Other than that I was wondering if someone here has juniors or something similar and has tested something like a 45 tube amp. I'm really curious if even 1.5 Watt are enough for a main system with Omegas.
I know that's very subjective and depends a lot on the room and listening preferences, but i'd like to hear some opinions (also helps to pass the time till the speakers arrive :D
My room/preferences: medium sized room with 28m²/300ft², and I don't listen at live levels ^^. When I turn my current setup up to the loudest I would listen, and then only for a song or two maybe, the db meter app shows something in the lower 80db SPL.

Greetings!
Oli


Doodlebum

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Re: Omega junior 8 xrs and a 45 SET amp?
« Reply #1 on: 26 Oct 2018, 12:42 pm »
I have the junior 8s with a Decware Zen 2 wpc. My room is midsized and I have no problem getting too loud.

Gapx

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Re: Omega junior 8 xrs and a 45 SET amp?
« Reply #2 on: 31 Oct 2018, 07:38 am »
...I'm still trying to understand if the tube or the way the tube is fed by the amp is the Watt-determine factor, it would be great if someone here could enlighten me on this ^^) ...

Regarding this "problem" it seems, that the tubes (transistors too) have a correlation between the power (watt) they put out and the distortion they create. Depending on the frequency and  form of the signal this gets audible at a certain number, between 0,5~5% measured in THD. So it wouldn't make sense to drive a tube harder as sound quality degrades with more power"fed" to it. Correct me if I'm wrong

As I guess most amps are capable of pushing a tube into distortion it's just a question when the distortion gets audible and you have reached the limit of the amp/tube.

I have the junior 8s with a Decware Zen 2 wpc. My room is midsized and I have no problem getting too loud.

Great to hear I guess I won't have a problem with a 45 amp.
I will have the chance to listen to 1 or 2 different ones before choosing and will report back what my experience is ;)

Greetings Oli
« Last Edit: 31 Oct 2018, 05:08 pm by Gapx »

Hyperkin

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Re: Omega junior 8 xrs and a 45 SET amp?
« Reply #3 on: 1 Nov 2018, 04:01 am »
I got both SAM and 3i.

I power them with either ALO studio 6 or Eddie Current Balancing Act. Both got enough power. If I am not mistaking the ALO is 1w and BA is 2w. Either can power SAM or 3i perfectly. I know these are not 45, but they are no where near high power amp. My listening room is smaller, around 180 sqft.

I got a Golden Tube SE40 as well, suppose to be 20w. Totally overkill in my opinion.

RDavidson

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Re: Omega junior 8 xrs and a 45 SET amp?
« Reply #4 on: 1 Nov 2018, 02:12 pm »
You have to consider room size and listening distance too. If you listen near-field (maybe within 6 feet or so), you may only need 1/2 a watt for comfortable listening. I think this is part of the reason people are having great success with flea watt amps such as Decware Zen mated to the highly responsive Omega speakers.

Gapx

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Re: Omega junior 8 xrs and a 45 SET amp?
« Reply #5 on: 22 Nov 2018, 08:58 pm »
Just a little update as my speakers arrived yesterday:
I haven't had much time to break them in yet and am still experimenting with positioning. So I was listening about 2 hours yesterday and 2 today and I have to say they are getting better and better with every hour, I can't imagine how this will end if it continues this way  :popcorn:

Those speakers are really great even with under 5hours of break in.  :notworthy: 
After about 1 hour they already sounded so well balanced with plenty of bass and no problem at all with more complex music. In terms of balance and punch, way better then the full range speakers I have heard until now.

And boy those beasts are fast  :thumb:

I can't wait to test some SET amps on them once they have had some playing time (at the moment I am using a el84 PP with ~10wpc)

Thanks a lot Louis!!! I am really happy about my new beautiful speakers!!  :inlove:

Greetings and happy thanksgiving!
« Last Edit: 23 Nov 2018, 06:46 am by Gapx »

happyrabbit

Re: Omega junior 8 xrs and a 45 SET amp?
« Reply #6 on: 23 Nov 2018, 12:55 pm »
Here you go..

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649477295-single-ended-45-triode-amp-set-dht-korneff/

45 goodness and won’t break the bank  :D

Dwight

Slam

Re: Omega junior 8 xrs and a 45 SET amp?
« Reply #7 on: 23 Nov 2018, 04:30 pm »
Here you go..

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649477295-single-ended-45-triode-amp-set-dht-korneff/

45 goodness and won’t break the bank  :D

Dwight

That is the one I just got and it sounds great. Highly recommended.

guf

Re: Omega junior 8 xrs and a 45 SET amp?
« Reply #8 on: 23 Nov 2018, 06:02 pm »
I have to get in on this.  I have a couple pairs of Omegas and a couple amps, including a 45 Korneff. I used the 45 with great results. Just not perfect. It sounded SO good I just wanted to keep turning it up and it didn't have enough to get it where I wanted to go.  I was using it without a pre and I think I read some where that a 45 amp benefits with a good pre.

 I later picked up a ACA 8 watt amp and have been using it for months with a 1P4L pre and have really been enjoying. Just because of reading this I though how I needed to try the 45 again on my desktop. Listening now and it does sound lovely. And with the pre helping with the gain it's plenty loud, especially in my near field set up. I do have a Rythmik sub connected, powering itself but notice the sound is not as tight as the 8 watt solid state power. Hmmmm?

I do use 300b with my HO Sams and love it.  I like having options and change them out and appreciate them at different times.

Gapx

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Re: Omega junior 8 xrs and a 45 SET amp?
« Reply #9 on: 23 Nov 2018, 06:08 pm »
Hey great to hear from Omega owners that are happy with a 45 SET amp :)

I already read good things about the "Jeff Korneff 45 schematic amps". I will probably have the opportunity to listen to some amps at a friends and if I settle for a 45 which he does not sell,  I will definitely look into the Korneff (perhaps even build one myself)

With the speakers i did a leap and bought them without listening first and was very lucky but I'm not sure if I want to do the same with the amplifier at this point, as I think now begins the tweaking of the system towards the speakers and personal taste. Although I guess I would not be disappointed with a Korneff clone ^^

Edit:
I have to get in on this.  I have a couple pairs of Omegas and a couple amps, including a 45 Korneff. I used the 45 with great results. Just not perfect. It sounded SO good I just wanted to keep turning it up and it didn't have enough to get it where I wanted to go.

That's pretty much what I fear and why I want to listen to the 45 before making the jump. Just did the measurement and I'm sitting ~3,3m (10~11feet) away from the speakers, so no near-field but perhaps the Jr 8xrs ca do it :) I guess  testing it is the only way to be sure 

roscoe65

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Re: Omega junior 8 xrs and a 45 SET amp?
« Reply #10 on: 23 Nov 2018, 09:26 pm »
I hope my experience helps:  I used to own a direct-coupled 45 SET more than 20 years ago.  It was a Wavelength design built by gary Dahl using all Magenequest iron.  I wish I still had it.  I was driving a reasonably efficient pair of speakers:  a custom two-way built by Zalytron using a Cabasse 8” paper driver with a DOM2 tweeter in a medium sized vented monitor cabinet.  They were allegedly 94dB.  That combo would not get as loud as I would have liked, but it was fantastic in near field at lower volumes.  The Omega would be an honest 4-5dB more efficient than my Cabasse speakers.  You should be ok at 3 meters.

Slam

Re: Omega junior 8 xrs and a 45 SET amp?
« Reply #11 on: 23 Nov 2018, 11:54 pm »
My 45 amp does not get insanely loud with my Super 3 XRS HO speakers, but it is plenty loud for my normal listening volume. Not a party amp though. I had a guy over last night that wanted me to really turn it up and it distorted. It was not entirely unpleasant but noticeable. YMMV

Gapx

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Re: Omega junior 8 xrs and a 45 SET amp?
« Reply #12 on: 24 Nov 2018, 04:29 pm »
I guess I will have to come over the idea of showing off with super high volume and instead have the better sound at every day listening ^^
Seems obvious but I think there are more people out there with this problem :D
« Last Edit: 26 Nov 2018, 08:30 am by Gapx »

happyrabbit

Re: Omega junior 8 xrs and a 45 SET amp?
« Reply #13 on: 26 Nov 2018, 01:40 am »
Gapx,

As an ex-omega owner, I have used the 45 & 2A3 to drive Louis’s creations.   I would also consider the 2A3 for your application.   YMMV  :wink:

Dwight   

http://whammerdyne.com/product/damn-good-amp-dga-1/

tybee

Re: Omega junior 8 xrs and a 45 SET amp?
« Reply #14 on: 26 Nov 2018, 03:54 pm »
While I am not currently an Omega user, like Happy Rabbit, I am an Oliver Sayes clone amp fan.  Last year, Oliver sent me his Yamamoto A08 clone which has been my reference all year.  My 94.5 db speakers were the only limitations to power, but the Sayes clone pushes well above it's cost in moderate listening levels.  Recently, Oliver sent me a Garber 421a  clone using UTC iron and it has really opened my eyes.  Adding 2.5 more watts to the Yamamoto's 2 watts,  the 421A amp adds more body, clarity, and especially more mid bass than the Yamamoto.  My 24' x22' listening room is heavily acoustically treated, so both the Yamamoto and 421a amps can extend the soundstage width the entire 24' width with very deep soundstage off the front wall.  The downside to the 421A amp is the 421A Tung Sol/Western Electric tube is becoming scarce and expensive. 


Art Dudley and 6Moons did rave reviews of the Garber 421A amp years ago, with 6Moons comparing the Yamamoto and Garber.

Gapx

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Re: Omega junior 8 xrs and a 45 SET amp?
« Reply #15 on: 3 Dec 2018, 05:15 pm »
So I did some testing and first of all I want to say loudness was no problem for the 45 but we had the feeling that there was something missing (not the full punch or "musical power"/fullness and a little on the weak side in the low frequencies in comparison to my PP SET) similar experience with 2a3 in the same amp. My guess is that the amp just didn't work well with my speakers, as everything got really REALLY good once we plugged in an f2a amplifier which was about 4,5wpc (so no real powerhouse either ^^).
With the f2a SET amplifier there was great detail, speed and punch, fullness and no missing of low frequencies at all -- just super fun to listen to :thumb:

So I guess my search is pretty much over, perhaps a little room treatment when my GAS strikes again in the future ;D

greetings!

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I don't mean this as a generalization for the tubes, I rather think that there needs to be a kind of harmony between speakers and the amp. So in this case the amp using f2a's was "better" for my ears than the one using 45/2a3. This is probably or not necessarily true for other 45/2a3/f2a amps. So best thing as always is listening and judging with your own ears/room and amp constellation as always YMMV ;)
« Last Edit: 3 Dec 2018, 06:34 pm by Gapx »

roscoe65

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Re: Omega junior 8 xrs and a 45 SET amp?
« Reply #16 on: 4 Dec 2018, 11:06 pm »
While I am not currently an Omega user, like Happy Rabbit, I am an Oliver Sayes clone amp fan.  Last year, Oliver sent me his Yamamoto A08 clone which has been my reference all year.  My 94.5 db speakers were the only limitations to power, but the Sayes clone pushes well above it's cost in moderate listening levels.  Recently, Oliver sent me a Garber 421a  clone using UTC iron and it has really opened my eyes.  Adding 2.5 more watts to the Yamamoto's 2 watts,  the 421A amp adds more body, clarity, and especially more mid bass than the Yamamoto.  My 24' x22' listening room is heavily acoustically treated, so both the Yamamoto and 421a amps can extend the soundstage width the entire 24' width with very deep soundstage off the front wall.  The downside to the 421A amp is the 421A Tung Sol/Western Electric tube is becoming scarce and expensive. 


Art Dudley and 6Moons did rave reviews of the Garber 421A amp years ago, with 6Moons comparing the Yamamoto and Garber.

I’m so happy you’ve had the chance to listen to two of Oliver’s amps: the Yamamoto clone and the FI 421A clone.  I owned a 45 Bugle amp in the 90’s and still am haunted that it may have been the best amp I ever owned.  I keep telling myself I would get a Sayes Yamamoto clone and be done with it.  But I also own a Sayes 421A amp with Hashimoto outputs.  I was afraid of what I would be missing but you put my mind at ease.

I have a single Tungsol 421A as well as a single WE 421A (ca. 1981).  I too feel like I should get another tube or two before the headphone guys snatch them all.

Would you care to compare the Yamamoto and FI amps in more detail?

Thanks,
R

tybee

Re: Omega junior 8 xrs and a 45 SET amp?
« Reply #17 on: 5 Dec 2018, 03:01 am »
Roscoe,

6Moons, Sragan Ebean's comparison review of the Yamamoto A08, Garber's Fi 421A, and Canary 300B amps really hit the nail on the head for me.  His comments about the Yamamoto and FI differences convinced me to take a chance on the Oliver Sayes 421A clone.  Like you, I have the Western Electric and Tung Sol 421A tubes and they are very similar, but the Western Electric has slightly better bass and alittle more warmth.  Since Oliver uses different vintage iron from amp to amp, the slight sonic differences may result from the changes he makes amp to amp.  My recent communication with him suggests he likes the 421A enough that he is also searching for more 421A tubes. He also likes the Yamamoto as well.  The sonics of the 421A are close to the 45s but not quite as sharp and incisive.  The Yamamoto is race horse like, very fast, and should mate very well with Omega's smaller drivers while the 421A is slightly slower and with the addtional bass and power maybe a better candidate for the bigger drivers like the Junior 8.  Both amps are very quiet for tube amps. The Yamamoto's honest 2 watts are noticeable compared to other 45 amps that I have been exposed like Korneff, Music Reference, and others. The Yamamoto just sounds more powerful when compared to other 45 amps in my experience. I like both amps enough that they will stay in my system. My best advice is read the 6Moons review carefully as Srajan details the sonic differences between the two amps very well.  6moons.com/audioreviews/fi6/421A_2.html



roscoe65

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Re: Omega junior 8 xrs and a 45 SET amp?
« Reply #18 on: 5 Dec 2018, 12:22 pm »
Roscoe,

6Moons, Sragan Ebean's comparison review of the Yamamoto A08, Garber's Fi 421A, and Canary 300B amps really hit the nail on the head for me.  His comments about the Yamamoto and FI differences convinced me to take a chance on the Oliver Sayes 421A clone.  Like you, I have the Western Electric and Tung Sol 421A tubes and they are very similar, but the Western Electric has slightly better bass and alittle more warmth.  Since Oliver uses different vintage iron from amp to amp, the slight sonic differences may result from the changes he makes amp to amp.  My recent communication with him suggests he likes the 421A enough that he is also searching for more 421A tubes. He also likes the Yamamoto as well.  The sonics of the 421A are close to the 45s but not quite as sharp and incisive.  The Yamamoto is race horse like, very fast, and should mate very well with Omega's smaller drivers while the 421A is slightly slower and with the addtional bass and power maybe a better candidate for the bigger drivers like the Junior 8.  Both amps are very quiet for tube amps. The Yamamoto's honest 2 watts are noticeable compared to other 45 amps that I have been exposed like Korneff, Music Reference, and others. The Yamamoto just sounds more powerful when compared to other 45 amps in my experience. I like both amps enough that they will stay in my system. My best advice is read the 6Moons review carefully as Srajan details the sonic differences between the two amps very well.  6moons.com/audioreviews/fi6/421A_2.html

Thanks Tybee.  I have read the 6Moons review.  It was one of the reasons I chose the amp.  I can say that this 421A amp does not sound like a typical SET amp.  It has great bass and seems to have much more power than its 4.5 watts would suggest.  While the 45 amp "needs" something > 95dB to really work the 421A seems to work nicely in applications where a 300B would otherwise be called for.

I've used the 421A with a pair of Omega Super 3 Monitors and it was a great match - plenty of bass for the size, plenty of dynamics, and plenty of volume even in a medium sized room.  It will be interesting to try it out on a pair of 12" Altec.

SuperXRSSeattle

Re: Omega junior 8 xrs and a 45 SET amp?
« Reply #19 on: 5 Dec 2018, 06:09 pm »
What preamp are you guys liking/using? I'm looking for one for the Dennis Had Inspire amp driving Omega 8 and XRS3 floor monitors.