HifiMan Sundara

FullRangeMan · « **on:** 28 Jul 2018, 12:36 am »

Dear heads,
Has anyone listened this Sundara?
Seems a new model compared to HE560.
Any comment on sounstage size?
Any problem?
http://hifiman.com/products/detail/286

dB Cooper · « **Reply #1 on:** 28 Jul 2018, 07:33 am »

Incomplete link

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #2 on:** 28 Jul 2018, 06:53 pm »

Oops, link OK now. It was tested here:
https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/hifiman/sundara
I noted this phone has the can smaller than the others HifiMan models

taking this looks like a good phone.

dB Cooper · « **Reply #3 on:** 28 Jul 2018, 09:24 pm »

Ive heard some Hifiman models and they sounded decent, but I'm still a little leery of them. They have a reputation for wobbly quality control and they change out models so much, I don't know if they'd still have parts and service available well up the road, the way, say, Sennheiser does (until just a few years ago, you could still get parts for the 414, a model that was introduced in the late Sixties). Heard the Sundara was replacement for 560.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #4 on:** 28 Jul 2018, 09:49 pm »

Quote from: dB Cooper on 28 Jul 2018, 09:24 pm

Ive heard some Hifiman models and they sounded decent, but I'm still a little leery of them. They have a reputation for wobbly quality control and they change out models so much, I don't know if they'd still have parts and service available well up the road, the way, say, Sennheiser does (until just a few years ago, you could still get parts for the 414, a model that was introduced in the late Sixties). Heard the Sundara was replacement for 560.

Seems your prob is they arent made in usa, buy an Audeze at double price.

mresseguie · « **Reply #5 on:** 29 Jul 2018, 01:06 am »

Quote from: FullRangeMan on 28 Jul 2018, 09:49 pm

Seems your prob is they arent made in usa, buy an Audeze at double price.

FRM,

That's a bit unfair on your part, don't you think? I think he explained his concerns pretty well, and location of manufacture wasn't one of his points. [Granted, there are many audiophiles who declare such concerns.] I'm not trying to pick a fight with you.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #6 on:** 29 Jul 2018, 01:36 am »

Ok thanks Michael, I have interest to know if these reliability probs persist today?

JohnR · « **Reply #7 on:** 29 Jul 2018, 03:26 am »

I still have my HE-560s, but it's true that the pads deteriorate rather quickly and the SMC connectors they used to use suck and the cables at those connections break easily too (not just Hifiman but aftermarket). They don't use those connectors any more but if I buy another set of Hifiman's one question I would need to ask is if replacement pads are available and how much.

However the drivers themselves and the headband etc have been just fine.

My "solution" to the question posed by FRM is to only buy from a local retailer with return policy/warranty service etc.

FWIW I've been through (bought and sold) 4 pairs of Audeze and a similar number of Senn HD6whatever.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #8 on:** 29 Jul 2018, 03:39 am »

Seems the Sundara pads are not angled, not sure.
After 4 years my 400 pads are just new as I have listened only 100 hours on this phone and I have 3 spare sets just in case.

dB Cooper · « **Reply #9 on:** 29 Jul 2018, 01:22 pm »

Quote from: FullRangeMan on 28 Jul 2018, 09:49 pm

Seems your prob is they arent made in usa, buy an Audeze at double price.

You get what you pay for.

'Not Made in America' isn't my problem. There are many quality audio items manufactured 'not in America', my Shure SE535's being just one of many. Neither are my Beyer Amirons. It seems like you took these comments personally. Not meant that way. These complaints are all over head-fi etc.

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #10 on:** 29 Jul 2018, 01:55 pm »

I'm another one with no problems with my 400i, pads and cables are fine. However the connectors look terriblly fragile and are a pain to install, so I've been pretty careful with them, they're stay at home cans. I understand the concerns, HiFiman does manufacture to a price point below other orthodynamic phones for the same performance. I didn't consider quality when I bought them for full retail back when they were brand new on the market, the resale price has plummeted accordingly, so these are keepers regardless.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #11 on:** 29 Jul 2018, 09:14 pm »

Quote from: dB Cooper on 29 Jul 2018, 01:22 pm

You get what you pay for.

'Not Made in America' isn't my problem. There are many quality audio items manufactured 'not in America', my Shure SE535's being just one of many. Neither are my Beyer Amirons. It seems like you took these comments personally. Not meant that way. These complaints are all over head-fi etc.

Not prob intended thanks for your kind, as you live in usa I believe is easy return the phones in case of a defect.

dB Cooper · « **Reply #12 on:** 30 Jul 2018, 02:23 am »

Wider adoption of planar tech will push prices down through innovation and scale of production. Jury is out for me on the technology as I have heard some of the best of both planar and dynamic designs and would have a hard time declaring definitively that one is superior. We are in a 'golden age' of headphones in many ways- there's more crap than ever, but also more really good ones. I applaud the effort to bring higher fidelity at lower price points. It's just that compromises must be chosen carefully. I know of instances of Sennheiser products (for example) lasting decades. That's why I lean towards brands with long term track records.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #13 on:** 31 Jul 2018, 04:40 am »

HifiMan market policy is clearly the opposite of Sennheiser, which phones stay stagnat for a long time and the user does not benefit from technological developments.

Sennheiser users are accustomed to use the phones for a year and sell it for the same purchase price, this not possible with HifiMan that is a company that develops its products very fast, in a year there are variuos releases of better performance phones for the same price.

JohnR · « **Reply #14 on:** 31 Jul 2018, 06:25 am »

There's a review with measurements on rtings.com - https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/hifiman/sundara

Also here: https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/hifiman/sundara/

dB Cooper · « **Reply #15 on:** 31 Jul 2018, 11:57 am »

Quote from: FullRangeMan on 31 Jul 2018, 04:40 am

HifiMan market policy is clearly the opposite of Sennheiser, which phones stay stagnat for a long time and the user does not benefit from technological developments.

I find that assertion totally mystifying. For the first time in years, there is no Senneheiser product here but I still respect the brand. If Sennheiser products were backward technologically (as you seem to be suggesting), the market would reject them. I am not aware of any credible evidence of this happening.

Another way to look at it is that when a product is designed right to begin with, it doesn't have to be re-designed every year or so, especially if those 'advances' are to correct design flaws.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #16 on:** 31 Jul 2018, 12:45 pm »

Quote from: JohnR on 31 Jul 2018, 06:25 am

There's a review with measurements on rtings.com - https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/hifiman/sundara

Also here: https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/hifiman/sundara/

Very nice review thanks

They even made a soundstage chart:

The soundstage performance is good. The PRTF graph shows a good amount of accuracy, and a decent amount of pinna interaction/activation. However, there is no "10KHz notch" present. This suggests a soundstage that is relatively natural and large, but located inside the listener's head. Also, because of their very open enclosure, their soundstage will be perceived to be more open than that of closed-back headphones.
I dont understand as a soundsage can be large, but located inside the listener's head.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #17 on:** 31 Jul 2018, 01:35 pm »

Quote from: dB Cooper on 31 Jul 2018, 11:57 am

I find that assertion totally mystifying. For the first time in years, there is no Senneheiser product here but I still respect the brand. If Sennheiser products were backward technologically (as you seem to be suggesting), the market would reject them. I am not aware of any credible evidence of this happening.

Another way to look at it is that when a product is designed right to begin with, it doesn't have to be re-designed every year or so, especially if those 'advances' are to correct design flaws.

Iam not as complacent, how the HD600/650 yet sells is beyond of me, evidently they are obsolete the HD600 was released in 1997, 21 years is too long for not improve that 30mm driver, they are slow.

The market did not even notice the HifiMan failures the factory is that it voluntarily corrected the products in 6 months, in 21 years they did not correct the 600 serie small soundstage problem, so they were not made right since the start.

hibuckhobby · « **Reply #18 on:** 31 Jul 2018, 02:15 pm »

Quote from: FullRangeMan on 31 Jul 2018, 01:35 pm

Iam not as complacent, how the HD600/650 yet sells is beyond of me, evidently they are obsolete the HD600 was released in 1997, 21 years is too long for not improve that 30mm driver, they are slow.

The market did not even notice the HifiMan failures the factory is that it voluntarily corrected the products in 6 months, in 21 years they did not correct the 600 serie small soundstage problem, so they were not made right since the start.

It would seem then that your issue is with the market, not the manufacture. Why would a company pull an item that continues to sell well simply because they thought it was getting old? While we can afford to be idealistic and always want the most for the least amount of money, companies that remove well accepted items from the market are making poor decisions.

You are correct that the market did not respond strongly to HiFiMan bringing "fixes" to market quickly because buyers are then in the situation of wondering if the "upgrades" actually are upgrades or if it is yet another item offered for sale that was not really ready. As far as soundstage, not everyone has that as their highest value. Tonality and musicality are IMO more important and are to a certain extent subjective so, once again, the desires of the market is what drives manufacturers. A case in point would be the proliferation of in ear phones and portable devices.

Hibuck...

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #19 on:** 31 Jul 2018, 02:24 pm »

Quote from: hibuckhobby on 31 Jul 2018, 02:15 pm

It would seem then that your issue is with the market, not the manufacture. Why would a company pull an item that continues to sell well simply because they thought it was getting old? While we can afford to be idealistic and always want the most for the least amount of money, companies that remove well accepted items from the market are making poor decisions. Interestingly, the HD600 continues to be well accepted on the basis of performance by purchasers...yet your position is that they should either change it or remove it from the market.
Hibuck...

Correct. They try improve the 600/650 in the HD700 but it goes wrong, it was labeled bad sound by reviewers, so seem that 30mm driver is not great.