power filter/conditioner

ryno · « **on:** 10 Jan 2005, 05:01 am »

I'm new to the filter/conditioner idea and am looking for opinions.
Looks like there's active and passive.
Active: better at filtering, might limit current, expensive
passive: not as good, not limiting, cheaper
System one has a dedicated 20A line with a single outlet pair. One for a panamax for the video stuff, the second for some unit for the audio stuff. I could do a passive because of current limiting and/or price of large active, or get a small active and rip the wall plug out, install a double outlet pair and plug the amp into the wall.
System two is not on a dedicated line, for a JVC dig reciever and source. Don't want to spend too much for a cheap bedroom system.
Thanks for any help, Ryan

gongos · « **Reply #1 on:** 10 Jan 2005, 07:03 am »

Look at Powervar and Oneac conditioners.

warnerwh · « **Reply #2 on:** 11 Jan 2005, 02:00 am »

Gongo's suggestion is right on target. These can be had for pennies on the dollar from Ebay. They are commercial designs for labs etc and well made.

ryno · « **Reply #3 on:** 11 Jan 2005, 03:14 am »

These are active, correct? Would you recomend them for both systems?
Also, do these units provide isolation between components?

doug s. · « **Reply #4 on:** 11 Jan 2005, 04:22 pm »

Quote from: ryno

These are active, correct? Would you recomend them for both systems?
Also, do these units provide isolation between components?

these are active - will offer sonic benefits, but not equipment protection. they will not provide isolation between equipment, but they are cheap enuff so that you can get one for each piece of equipment. but, i would suggest that the only digital equipment absoluutely needs separation from the rest of your gear. ie: one iso tranny each, for cdp, & dac; another for everything else. if you have a one-box cdp, then ya only need two total. only caveat - if you use one for your amp, it has to be big enuff so as not to choke the amps' dynamics...

doug s.

budyog · « **Reply #5 on:** 11 Jan 2005, 04:50 pm »

I would highly recommend "Richard Gray's Power Company". I have 2 of the 400s and they do a remarkable job. Besides protection of your system, they make your system sound all around so much better. They are worth every penny! I am a believer.

warnerwh · « **Reply #6 on:** 12 Jan 2005, 01:28 am »

Quote from: doug s.

these are active - will offer sonic benefits, but not equipment protection. they will not provide isolation between equipment, but they are cheap enuff so that you can get one for each piece of equipment. but, i would suggest that the only digital equipment absoluutely needs separation from the rest of your gear. ie: one iso tranny each, for cdp, & dac; another for everything else. if you have a one-box cdp, then ya only need two total. only caveat - if you use one for your amp, it has to be big enuff so as not to choke the amps' dynamics...

doug s.

Doug: Why do you say the Powervar and Oneac conditioners won't protect your equipment. They should protect it from anything short of a lightning strike. There are Pi filters for noise, surges are diverted to ground and an isolation transformer.

doug s. · « **Reply #7 on:** 12 Jan 2005, 02:00 pm »

Quote from: warnerwh

Doug: Why do you say the Powervar and Oneac conditioners won't protect your equipment. They should protect it from anything short of a lightning strike. There are Pi filters for noise, surges are diverted to ground and an isolation transformer.

perhaps i am mistaken here, but i always thought of these devices as just filtering normal electrical events & garbage on the power line, not abnormal surges or lightning strikes. typical normal electrical fluctuations are what i'd consider events that won't damage your equipment, but will make it operate at less than its potential.

if standard isolation transformers offer as much protection as product specifically designed to protect electrical equipment, great! but, i'd like to hear this from someone a lot more knowledgeable about electronics than i do.

doug s.

warnerwh · « **Reply #8 on:** 12 Jan 2005, 04:24 pm »

Doug: You can go to the Powervar and Oneac websites for a better description of what they sell. They have good articles there.

jbgcpa · « **Reply #9 on:** 13 Jan 2005, 03:40 pm »

I'm interested in knowing how you determine whether or not a power conditioner is needed.

I live in a town that has its own municipal electric company. Because I am active in town government I know the director of the electric department (I'm on the finance committee and I review his budget - so he loves me

) What questions could I ask him? Is there a technical way to ask about "electrical events and garbage", that doug s. mentions. I would guess they monitor the quality of the current they deliver? Then, based on his response determine whether a conditioner would make a big enough difference to make it worthwhile.

I asked for the correct technical questions to ask, but keep in mind I do not have a technical background. Please keep that in mind when you respond. Thanks,
Jack

PhilNYC · « **Reply #10 on:** 13 Jan 2005, 03:50 pm »

Jack,

Bad AC is the result of all the noise, interference, etc that is picked up between the power station and your home. It is also the result of all the appliances, gear, etc that is plugged in, not only in your home, but in your neighbors' homes, etc. The wiring in your house is also a likely culprit. So it's probably not worthwhile to investigate anything about the power station...unless you have your own generator right next to your living room, you will probably benefit from some power conditioning.

You can minimize/eliminate the effects of AC noise/interference coming from things in your own home by getting a dedicated line from your breaker box to your gear. This will eliminate the effects of things like your air conditioner, dishwasher, refridgerator, etc (the things closest to your gear's AC will have the biggest effect, so getting a dedicated circuit will eliminate those as problems). But that will not solve the issues of noise picked up outside your house or the voltage variations due to everyone in your neighborhood turning their air conditioners on (in my house on a hot summer day, I get a voltage drop of 10-11 volts...so instead of the 120v I usually get, it goes down to 109-110v). A power line conditioner will help with filtering that noise...and a voltage stabilizer will, um, stabilize your voltage...

JoshK · « **Reply #11 on:** 13 Jan 2005, 03:59 pm »

Just to be clear, in the relative scheme of things the noise from outside your house is in all probability many folds larger than that which comes from within your home.

One thing I must correct in common misperception is that adding a dedicating line protects one's equipment from noise within one's own house and this is simply not true as all the lines in the house are still in circuit with one another. However, there are still some advantages to be had from dedicated circuits, and there may be some improvements in noise due to not having the immediate local ground not being modulated by upstream equipment.

djbnh · « **Reply #12 on:** 13 Jan 2005, 04:05 pm »

Quote from: JoshK

One thing I must correct in common misperception is that adding a dedicating line protects one's equipment from noise within one's own house and this is simply not true as all the lines in the house are still in circuit with one another. However, there are still some advantages to be had from dedicated circuits, and there may be some ...

Is the above true if a dedicated line has its own ground (i.e., separate from the regular house circuit/box)?

WerTicus · « **Reply #13 on:** 13 Jan 2005, 04:17 pm »

http://diyparadise.com/dablok.html

a diy power filter that does work

but dont kid yourself about them not having negative effects, they ALL have negatives

its up to you to decide if they make it sound better or just DIFFERENT

for example a cheap torriodal transformer may sound better with a filter before it - but a really good torriodal will sound far better without anything in the way, just a nice fat power cable will often sound better in hi end cases.

be careful here!

jbgcpa · « **Reply #14 on:** 13 Jan 2005, 04:26 pm »

Phil, Thank you for clearing that up. If I understand it correctly, the power company doesn't send the interference, it gets manufactured in my home and by my neighbors. In that case it may be true that virtually every system would benefit from a conditioner.

Earlier in this thread a few brands were mentioned and how they are available on ebay. Is this a good way to acquire a conditioner? Are there certain attributes/specifications to look for to evaluate how effective a particular conditoner might be? And finally, is it as simple to use as a power strip - that is, plug the conditioner into the wall and then plug your devices into the conditioner? Thanks again,
Jack

budyog · « **Reply #15 on:** 13 Jan 2005, 04:47 pm »

I picked 1 of my "RGPC" on Audiogone and the other on E-Bay with super results. What I noticed is they seem to be able to provide the power when needed for like the crack of a snare drum, or the snap of a electric bass gutiar, and they seem to make the highs ring on and on etc. I was really hesitant to spend the hundreds of dollars, but a good audio friend kept telling me "you gotta try one" you gotta try one" so I did. I could not believe the difference. So I bought another one. I have my whole system and LCD TV connected to them. I eventually will even get another one and hook them up like RGPC say's, the "star cluster" method. Again, I am a believer!

PhilNYC · « **Reply #16 on:** 13 Jan 2005, 04:56 pm »

Jack,

Yes, vitually every system would benefit from some kind of power conditioning. I know some audiophiles that put power conditioning second only to acoustic treatments on their setup priorities.

As a dealer, I think eBay sucks

It's hard to say what works best. There are many types...balanced, power regenerators, cap-filters, choke/inductor, etc. Everyone has their opinion. The best thing to do, like anything in audio, is to try some out yourself and see what you like.

And yes, most of these things are easy to use...some are like a power strip (plug your gear into it, and it to the wall), some are parallel (plug it into an outlet adjacent to your gear).