[planet10]

You turn your hifi off?

dave

[Steve]

You turn your hifi off?

dave

Yep. I just can't see spending $320.00 for output tubes every year or two. Driver and preamp tubes add another $100.00. Add electric bill for AC etc in the summer and ouch.

cheers

steve

[AmpDesigner333]

Not a valid generalization. Depending on the box and the driver in the box, too high a damping factor can overdamp the driver.

Having lived with a variable transimpedance amp (output impedance controllable from near zero to near infinity), each speaker we tried had a different optimal setting.

dave

It's a simple fact.  A science and math thing, not an opinion.  It's like a dog on a leash, the shorter the leash, the more control over the dog.  Doesn't matter if it's raining, of if the dog is hungry, or when the dog's next vet appointment is, or the color of the dog.  Your statement about trans-impedance experiments doesn't have enough information to be conclusive, even if you feel the experiments were in your opinion.  No information on parameters, test set up, specs of the amp, what was measured (if anything), or even the types of speakers used.  It's like saying you drove a car around town and didn't need to step on the gas that much, so more horsepower is never necessary....  Hey, I'm "mister analogy" tonight.  Higher damping factor = better, always (:

[Russell Dawkins]

To me it is significant that both of the people who, to my knowledge, have spent the most time actually listening to the effects of different materials and configurations used in conductors and elsewhere in the system (Denis Moorecroft of DNM and Pierre Sprey of Mapleshade) have settled on small diameter, single conductor cables as optimal.

http://www.mapleshadestore.com/speakerwires.php

http://www.dnm.co.uk/materials.html

Resistive power loss is compensated by a miniscule adjustment of the gain control, is it not?

The reduced damping factor effects caused by higher cable resistance may well be less audible than smeared arrival times and distortion caused by diodic effects and other effects resulting from multistrand cables. Also the added resistance would be trivial when compared to the output impedance of the typical tube amp, wouldn't it?

[twitch54]

Yep. I just can't see spending $320.00 for output tubes every year or two. Driver and preamp tubes add another $100.00. Add electric bill for AC etc in the summer and ouch.

cheers

steve

Steve, I can't imagine anyone in their right mind leaving tube gear 'always on' , especially power amps.

[FullRangeMan]

Steve, I can't imagine anyone in their right mind leaving tube gear 'always on' , especially power amps.

Many tube amps manufacturers say in the owner manual to dont let the amp on alone, they know that the current tubes has low reliability.

[THROWBACK]

Well, I'm not . . .
...convinced about the benefits of solid core wire. In fact, just the opposite. I used s/c wire in my GR Research LS-9s to begin with but was put off by a "whang" sort of effect in the midrange and treble. I replaced it with (damned) expensive) Marigo wire (Litz configuration) and experienced immediate relief. Sounds wonderful now.

I know what you're thinking: "I thought it was going to sound better; therefore it did." But my hard-headed audio buddies think so too.

S/C wire is fine for subs, but not (in my system/experience) mids and tweets.

[Russell Dawkins]

I think it is significant that you are talking about litz wire which neatly side steps a couple of the supposed problems with mutistrand associated with the fact there are multiple contact points between the conductors. It seems the Litz configuration provides the main benefit of single strand small diameter conductors while adding better conductivity to the mix, at the expense, only, of complexity.

My best microphone cables and all my analog interconnects in my studio are of Litz construction, partially (there are large gauge wires intended to pass bass frequencies). It took me a full 1/2 hour to strip and prepare for silver soldering each end. In other words, terminating with XLRs or 1/4" balanced connectors took 2 hours for a stereo pair.

[Steve]

To me it is significant that both of the people who, to my knowledge, have spent the most time actually listening to the effects of different materials and configurations used in conductors and elsewhere in the system (Denis Moorecroft of DNM and Pierre Sprey of Mapleshade) have settled on small diameter, single conductor cables as optimal.

http://www.mapleshadestore.com/speakerwires.php

http://www.dnm.co.uk/materials.html

Resistive power loss is compensated by a miniscule adjustment of the gain control, is it not?

The reduced damping factor effects caused by higher cable resistance may well be less audible than smeared arrival times and distortion caused by diodic effects and other effects resulting from multistrand cables. Also the added resistance would be trivial when compared to the output impedance of the typical tube amp, wouldn't it?

Russell, totally agree, materials make a difference. Correct me if I am wrong, you were discussing inside the chassis? If so, I think the OP was discussing outside the chassis. Just a mention in case you missed it (tucked in one of the previous posts), one of the benefits of multiple solid wires is improved high frequency response, differing relationship between fundamental and harmonics etc (See Olson's work). As such FR changes the spacial aspects etc. as well. Been working with such for a long time. Power loss is minimal, so not an issue, as you have indicated.
Inside my preamplifier/amp, phono stage, I use Jenalabs 6n, I believe, stranded copper wire and testing demonstrated accuracy/naturalness.

Cheers and all the best Russell.

steve

[Steve]

Well, I'm not . . .
...convinced about the benefits of solid core wire. In fact, just the opposite. I used s/c wire in my GR Research LS-9s to begin with but was put off by a "whang" sort of effect in the midrange and treble. I replaced it with (damned) expensive) Marigo wire (Litz configuration) and experienced immediate relief. Sounds wonderful now.

I know what you're thinking: "I thought it was going to sound better; therefore it did." But my hard-headed audio buddies think so too.

S/C wire is fine for subs, but not (in my system/experience) mids and tweets.

It appears that your findings agree with ours in that each system, venue etc is unique. Was that just one wire, or multiple that the OP, me, and others tested in our systems.

cheers

steve

[charmerci]

It appears that your findings agree with ours in that each system, venue etc is unique. Was that just one wire, or multiple that the OP, me, and others tested in our systems.

cheers

steve

Seriously, throwback's speakers are LS9's!!!    Mine's just a two driver two way. Comparing apples and oranges perhaps?

[planet10]

It's a simple fact.  A science and math thing, not an opinion.  It's like a dog on a leash, the shorter the leash, the more control over the dog. 

While my personal experiment results are anecdotal, all of the background information i have posted has been known for sometime (and refutes your claim of simple fact,) one only has to look far enuff back. When almost the whole industry made a right hand turn to transistors, much of this info became obscure so one had to consiously dig for it. It is only in recent times that the best transistor amps & the best tube amps are getting closer together.

Class D amps have come a long, long way since i heard the then new Infinity. Hard to beat the price/power that is now extant. Dealing with artifacts due to the switching frequency of a Class D amp have been hard to overcome. I have yet to hear all the contenders for best Class D amp so i cannot speak to how far they have come. But that is a topic different from th epremise of this thread.

While much of the commercially available kit had painted itself into a corner, the diy world is not nearly so restricted.

dave

[charmerci]

Cripes. I have 4 22g and 2 14 g wires hooked up to the left speaker and five 14 g wires hooked up to the other and there are differences between those two. The left has less bass, a more prominent/forward mid-range but less smooth high frequencies. The possibilities are endless!!!

[charmerci]

It sounds bizarre to me but what I seem to be hearing is that small gauge wire seems to be better at transferring high frequencies and lower gauge wire is better at transferring low frequencies?

[Russell Dawkins]

Higher damping factor = better, always (:

Would that it were so simple....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rDw2YBUz6A

[OzarkTom]

Thorsten Loesch , formally at TNT Audio mag, am ultimate tweekster and now the designer of AMR and IFI electronics says this about speaker wires.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/spkcbl_e.html

[Steve]

Thorsten Loesch , formally at TNT Audio mag, am ultimate tweekster and now the designer of AMR and IFI electronics says this about speaker wires.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/spkcbl_e.html

He provides some useful information, but my example of paralleling multiple wires is superior to the bottom of the page; virtually zero capacitance and extremely low inductance.

cheers

steve

[Steve]

Seriously, throwback's speakers are LS9's!!!    Mine's just a two driver two way. Comparing apples and oranges perhaps?

Oh, I was not comparing speakers Charmerci. In fact I had no idea of what Throwback was running. I was a bit confused what he was discussing. No comparison meant. I just meant that different systems will require their own unique speaker cables for optimum sound.

cheers

steve

[Steve]

It's a simple fact.  A science and math thing, not an opinion.  It's like a dog on a leash, the shorter the leash, the more control over the dog.   Higher damping factor = better, always (:

Ah planet 10 was correct. And we must include all the science, and variables. It is possible to over damp the woofer, generally less than .7 or so. There are two ways to dampen a driver, mechanically (Qms) and electrically (Qes). That is how one arrives at the Qts of a driver and speaker as a whole.

Any time we alter the electrical damping factor, we alter the lower frequency response, and response of all other drivers as well. One of the big problems in designing a speaker is the lack of electronic component accuracy.

What was the output impedance (Z) of the amplifier the designer used to test his speaker? We don't know. You want to use a different damping factor than what the speaker designer used? Optimizing the total speaker Qts will rarely be simply the maximum damping figure possible.

cheers

steve

[THROWBACK]

Before we get too comfortable with our conclusions about cables, ICs, power cords, tubes, solid-state, wall sockets, cable lifters, analog/digital, and other audiophile topics of contention, we might want to really consider the implications of "Laurel/Yanni."

My first thought was, "So what?" Now I'm thinking, "Wow!"

https://www.spin.com/2018/05/how-to-hear-yanny-laurel/

With EQ mods:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4KTWCuL5Vs

Analyzed by Doug Johnson Productions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUawekViYpk

EQ Demo makes it easy to hear the difference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo1RPoPf7-M