Amps with Crossfeed circuit?

macdane · « **on:** 3 May 2018, 09:23 pm »

In the hopes that someone here tracks such things, I'd really be interested in a list of headphone amps offering a crossfeed circuit. I have a Meier Corda Prehead as part of my main rig and I personally find a small amount of crossfeed indispensable for headphone listening. I understand there's a cost involved in adding a feature like this, but I'm baffled to see so few amps that include it.

Specifically what I'm looking for is something portable. Having a good DAC built-in would be a plus but not absolutely necessary. Having a good crossed option, however, is a must. Meier and Headroom both had such devices once upon a time, but who does it now?

Thanks,
Dane

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #1 on:** 3 May 2018, 09:46 pm »

Quote from: macdane on 3 May 2018, 09:23 pm

In the hopes that someone here tracks such things, I'd really be interested in a list of headphone amps offering a crossfeed circuit. I have a Meier Corda Prehead as part of my main rig and I personally find a small amount of crossfeed indispensable for headphone listening. I understand there's a cost involved in adding a feature like this, but I'm baffled to see so few amps that include it.

Specifically what I'm looking for is something portable. Having a good DAC built-in would be a plus but not absolutely necessary. Having a good crossed option, however, is a must. Meier and Headroom both had such devices once upon a time, but who does it now?

Thanks,
Dane

What exactly is crossfeed circuit?
Do you mean say Negative Feedback?

macdane · « **Reply #2 on:** 3 May 2018, 10:02 pm »

No. In simple terms, a crossfeed circuit modified the signal fed to headphones in a much more realistic way. In a nutshell, a bit of the right channel signal is slightly delayed and then added to the left, and vice-versa. This mimics the way we hear sounds in the real world and leads to a much less artificial, contrived sound. It also greatly extends my listening time.

Dane

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #3 on:** 3 May 2018, 10:12 pm »

Quote from: macdane on 3 May 2018, 10:02 pm

No. In simple terms, a crossfeed circuit modified the signal fed to headphones in a much more realistic way. In a nutshell, a bit of the right channel signal is slightly delayed and then added to the left, and vice-versa. This mimics the way we hear sounds in the real world and leads to a much less artificial, contrived sound. It also greatly extends my listening time.

Dane

By the little I know I never see a HP amp w/this circuit,
I would welcome a circuit to enlarge the soundstage without tone controls or loudness.

macdane · « **Reply #4 on:** 3 May 2018, 10:36 pm »

Quote from: FullRangeMan on 3 May 2018, 10:12 pm

By the little I know I never see a HP amp w/this circuit,
I would welcome a circuit to enlarge the soundstage without tone controls or loudness.

Oh, I'd definitely recommend giving this a try if you listen to headphones. It's not so much a matter of soundstage size — which is a very problematic concept with headphones — but certainly makes the whole experience sound much more natural. There's nothing remotely natural about each ear hearing the signal from only one channel. A well-implemented crossfeed circuit remedies that, and it can also be managed digitally by software if you happen to be attached to an amp that doesn't do this. Here's a bit of info and some samples that were recorded using this technique ...

http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/crossfeed.htm

Dane

gefski · « **Reply #5 on:** 3 May 2018, 10:41 pm »

Quote from: macdane on 3 May 2018, 10:02 pm

No. In simple terms, a crossfeed circuit modified the signal fed to headphones in a much more realistic way. In a nutshell, a bit of the right channel signal is slightly delayed and then added to the left, and vice-versa. This mimics the way we hear sounds in the real world and leads to a much less artificial, contrived sound. It also greatly extends my listening time.

Dane

Check out SPL Phonitor

https://spl.audio/professional-fidelity/phonitor-x/?lang=en

Supposed to be superb amps at a couple price points. Never had my ears on one though.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #6 on:** 3 May 2018, 10:55 pm »

Quote from: macdane on 3 May 2018, 10:36 pm

Oh, I'd definitely recommend giving this a try if you listen to headphones. It's not so much a matter of soundstage size — which is a very problematic concept with headphones — but certainly makes the whole experience sound much more natural. There's nothing remotely natural about each ear hearing the signal from only one channel. A well-implemented crossfeed circuit remedies that, and it can also be managed digitally by software if you happen to be attached to an amp that doesn't do this. Here's a bit of info and some samples that were recorded using this technique ...

http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/crossfeed.htm

Dane

I like the small music details HPs presents in the music, but I dont like the small sound stage size my HE400 presents, however w/balanced connection the soundstage is larger than banana plug at a low cost.

The SPL Phonitor works changing the music signal phase which have an efect most in the bass freqs imo.

OBS.: the Phonitor have a knob to adjust the phase angle, a variable adjusting is always useful, the crossfeed seems a fixed option.

Mark Korda · « **Reply #7 on:** 3 May 2018, 11:30 pm »

Hi Macdane,
I built a Corda from Meier Audio around 2003. When you explained crossfeed to Fullrangeman I think you got a tiny bit wrong. I am almost positive there is no time delay. My Dynaco Quadapter uses a time delay for the back wave of a concert hall.
The way Jan Meier put it; When you listen to stereo you hear whats coming from the left and right speaker. The same thing with ear phones but, when you have ear phones on those 2 channels are isolated. Crossfeed lets you hear a little of the right channel in the left ear phone cup and vise versa......just as you would when you were sitting in front of a pair of speakers.
As Dane said without it head phone listeners were getting a listeners fatigue and thats why he came up with it.
I'd like to talk to someone else who has a Corda....I got some funny stories....Mark Korda

macdane · « **Reply #8 on:** 4 May 2018, 02:58 am »

Quote from: gefski on 3 May 2018, 10:41 pm

Check out SPL Phonitor

https://spl.audio/professional-fidelity/phonitor-x/?lang=en

Supposed to be superb amps at a couple price points. Never had my ears on one though.

Looks like pretty cool stuff and indeed includes a crossfeed option, but I didn't see anything portable. Thanks for the tip though!

Dane

hayden · « **Reply #9 on:** 4 May 2018, 02:59 am »

The meier amps are great. You should also checkout Leckerton audio.

macdane · « **Reply #10 on:** 4 May 2018, 03:01 am »

Quote from: Mark Korda on 3 May 2018, 11:30 pm

I built a Corda from Meier Audio around 2003. When you explained crossfeed to Fullrangeman I think you got a tiny bit wrong. I am almost positive there is no time delay.

Hi Mark ... if you check out Jan Meier's page about crossfeed info, you'll see that there is indeed a time-delay component:

http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/crossfeed.htm

Dane

macdane · « **Reply #11 on:** 4 May 2018, 03:01 am »

Quote from: hayden on 4 May 2018, 02:59 am

The meier amps are great. You should also checkout Leckerton audio.

Will do ... thanks!

ryno · « **Reply #12 on:** 4 May 2018, 03:51 am »

Decware’s portable has crossfeed.

dB Cooper · « **Reply #13 on:** 4 May 2018, 04:03 am »

Most if not all of the HeadRoom amps, desktop and portable, had switchable crossfeed; in fact, it was their 'calling card'. There were (are? haven't looked lately) a variety of them.
Headroom's status seems uncertain; awhile back they got out of the headphone biz (they sold almost everything out there) to concentrate on a new line of amps, which don't seem to be available yet. But their amps should be plentiful on the used market.

What are your sources? My listening is almost 100% from computer, do I do crossfeed in software. (I use a Mac so the following may not be helpful to you, but...) The Fidelia audio player has an (unfortunately overpriced) version of CanOpener, and the previous release of the Vox player (before it went to a subscription model) has excellent crossfeed with your choice of both Meier and Chu Moy parameters (I prefer the Meier). There is a VST/Audio Unit plugin called Canz3D which may work depending on the computer and OS (it's 32-bit so it may go away unless the developer gets around to updating it to 64-bit.) I mention all this because IMHO crossfeed is much easier to implement and control in the digital domain. Canz 3Dt, it too is Mac-only. I haven't owned a Windows box in a long time, but I had something called 'Dolby Headphone' which was a software-based crossfeed.

Hope this helps. If it were me, I think the best value hardware-based option is a used HeadRoom amp.

dB Cooper · « **Reply #14 on:** 4 May 2018, 04:13 am »

Wow, the Leckerton amps are very reasonably priced (starting at $219 for a portable DAC/amp?!?

)
That might take the HeadRoom used amps out of contention unless the price is really right. Thanks hayden.

JohnR · « **Reply #15 on:** 4 May 2018, 04:58 am »

I believe some of the iFi portable gear has something called 3D which they say is better than crossfeed eg. https://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/micro-idsd/, https://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/nano-ican/

On the non-portable front, RME ADI-2 Pro and ADI-2 DAC have crossfeed.

wagnju · « **Reply #16 on:** 4 May 2018, 10:53 am »

I know these two with integrated crossfeed + more
I own both of them

the minidsp HA-DSP for travelling
https://www.minidsp.com/products/dsp-headphone-amp/ha-dsp

and as JohnR also mentioned the RME ADI-2 DAC for home (around $1000)
http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/adi_2-dac.php
best regards
Juergen

rif · « **Reply #17 on:** 4 May 2018, 12:34 pm »

Years ago, I had a portable headroom amp and can verify the crossfeed made a huge positive difference. It had a switch to turn it on/off. IIRC it was around $100.

I now own one of their desktop amps which is more versatile in crossfeed control. Wouldn't think about listening without it.

Maybe it's not seen frequently, did they have a patent?

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #18 on:** 4 May 2018, 12:53 pm »

I just listened to the Meier crossfeed samples provided in the link, when I got thru the tutorial samples and got to the music sample I listened all the way to the end, excellent solution to the problems of headphone listening, not at all subtle.

Mark Korda · « **Reply #19 on:** 4 May 2018, 01:13 pm »

Hi Dane,
thanks for looking that up. I stand corrected. Sorry about that.
One test I'd like to try is the Corda vs. the Schitt Vali (3?). or the smaller amp with 1 tube.
I built my Corda from a kit. Jan Meier did not include a build manual and took in fact you were on his level. Until his headphone business he was a trained nuclear scientist. Every night I had a question and he answered every one by e-mail from Germany. I even sent him a Dynaco manual and a manual from Frank Van AlStine to show him how to simplify the build and lessen his future headaches from dopes like me. If he dropped the kit option I was probably the biggest reason.
I did finally get it going and it sounds great! I use Grado 80's for headphones....thanks Dane...Mark Korda