Amps with Crossfeed circuit?

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macdane

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Re: Amps with Crossfeed circuit?
« Reply #40 on: 9 May 2018, 02:53 pm »
IMO your going to need a seperate set of crossfeeed settngs or circuits for potentially each cd you have ... In my thousands of cd's they are all over the place in quality and recording and how they were mic'd ... These IMO "magic" boxes that tinker with crossfeed are indeed intriguing but seem to require a bit of tinkering

Alex,

A couple of these recent examples (RME and minidsp) are indeed complex and appear to require a lot of tinkering. Looking at it from the other direction, they *allow* a lot of tinkering and customization. But that's not what I'm personally looking for. My reality is that the low/medium/high crossfeed settings are even more flexibility than necessary; a simple on/off switch applying a predetermined amount of crossfeed would be sufficient, at least in the Meier implementation.

Like you, I have CDs and hi-res digital files that span a broad spectrum of recording quality and micing techniques, but I feel no need to tweak the amount of crossfeed from recording to recording. I simply set it to one of the "on" settings and leave it. Which particular setting I use is almost immaterial, as any one of them is better than "off" across the board.

I think you'd be doing yourself a favor by seeking out an amp with this feature to give it a listen for yourself. Nothing about it comes across as gimmicky or artificial or magic ... there's no sense that extra unnecessary stuff has come between me and the music. Granted, I'm coming at this as a long-time 2-channel speaker guy and I recognize that some (particularly younger) people have only ever experienced hifi sound through headphones. Even in those cases, everything else you hear in normal life has this crossfeed phenomenon built-in, and I have a hard time understanding how anyone would *not* find this a more natural way to experience music.

Dane

ajzepp

Re: Amps with Crossfeed circuit?
« Reply #41 on: 15 May 2018, 01:44 am »
I told Jan Meier a while ago he should really have a stand alone crossfeed unit. He said he did used to have one, but it wasn't popular because nobody really understood what it did. I've been using his gear for about six years and love it. I much prefer it to the alternative (i.e. being without it). He's coming out with a new flagship unit with DSP and crossfeed, and I think he's toying with the idea of another standalone option.

macdane

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Re: Amps with Crossfeed circuit?
« Reply #42 on: 15 May 2018, 06:04 am »
I told Jan Meier a while ago he should really have a stand alone crossfeed unit. He said he did used to have one, but it wasn't popular because nobody really understood what it did. I've been using his gear for about six years and love it. I much prefer it to the alternative (i.e. being without it). He's coming out with a new flagship unit with DSP and crossfeed, and I think he's toying with the idea of another standalone option.

That would be terrific, and I'd also like to see him resurrect the portable amp — with crossfeed, of course. From what I've seen of the Soul project, it should be pretty cool, although I can't imagine my Prehead is going anywhere for quite awhile.

adydula

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Re: Amps with Crossfeed circuit?
« Reply #43 on: 15 May 2018, 12:48 pm »
Dane.....

I will take a look at this again and if I can find a unit I will definitely give a listen...

But the unit I buit with the three crossfeed settings didnt impress me much at all....maybe its the circuit design? But it has a white paper on it describibg the postive merits etc....

If this idea is so great I would think most of the audiophile folks would have one...but most dont? So is it really that much more "better", more "life-like"? etc.

Also the comment about it wasnt popular because nobody understood what it does is a bit lame to me? To sell something  IMO I have to hear the difference and if its a small subtle difference and adds to the cost, its most likely doomed for retail failure...

I wonder if there are any of these stand alone Meier units around?  I will serach but if you know what the model # is please let me know...

Thanks
Alex


macdane

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Re: Amps with Crossfeed circuit?
« Reply #44 on: 15 May 2018, 01:41 pm »
But the unit I buit with the three crossfeed settings didnt impress me much at all....maybe its the circuit design? But it has a white paper on it describibg the postive merits etc....

Like I said previously, I'm not familiar with the ZEN approach to crossfeed. It may be that there are significant differences between the many approaches that have been taken over the years. All I know for sure is that the Meier implementation works for me.

If this idea is so great I would think most of the audiophile folks would have one...but most dont? So is it really that much more "better", more "life-like"? etc. Also the comment about it wasnt popular because nobody understood what it does is a bit lame to me? To sell something  IMO I have to hear the difference and if its a small subtle difference and adds to the cost, its most likely doomed for retail failure...

Hmm. Maybe. The thing is, I hear it as a subtle difference rather than the hyperbolic "night and day" difference. Sometimes it's the huge, immediately noticeable differences that get the market's attention. Decades ago, during my college days, I'd spend weekends with friends swapping components and cables, listening for differences and trying to get a handle on whether those differences were improvements or merely changes. As I've aged, I'm less (i.e., not at all) inclined to do that. Instead, on the rare occasions I make a change to my system, I now listen for at least several hours if not several days before swapping back to the original state. I feel that to be a more reliable way to gauge organic changes in presentation, and certainly helps me pick up on subtle differences — as they say, the devil's in the details.

So while I might agree that crossfeed is better or more life-like, I'd have a hard time quantifying the improvement as "that much more" anything. I'd say the effect is subtle but undeniably desirable. Beyond that, I struggle to describe it. Listening to headphones without crossfeed, I'm almost always aware that something is "wrong." It's a poor substitute for the experience I get with my "real" speaker-based system, and I find that an hour of listening seems like a looong time. With crossfeed, a decent amp/headphones can be a very believable way to listen, and I can easily go for hours. All because the crossfeed, while subtle, more closely mimics the way I hear everything in real life. I think.

I wonder if there are any of these stand alone Meier units around?  I will serach but if you know what the model # is please let me know...

I wish I could tell you, but I don't know. If I run into it, I'll let you know ... please do the same!

Dane

macdane

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Re: Amps with Crossfeed circuit?
« Reply #45 on: 15 May 2018, 01:44 pm »
Also, Alex, I'll repost the link to the crossfeed page on the Meier site:

http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/crossfeed.htm

Because of everything I just said about preferring to rely on longer-term evaluation of any changes to my system, I'm reluctant to recommend short audio clips like the samples on that page. But you should give them a listen and see what you think.

Dane

dB Cooper

Re: Amps with Crossfeed circuit?
« Reply #46 on: 16 May 2018, 01:34 pm »
I'd say the effect is subtle but undeniably desirable. Beyond that, I struggle to describe it. Listening to headphones without crossfeed, I'm almost always aware that something is "wrong." It's a poor substitute for the experience I get with my "real" speaker-based system, and I find that an hour of listening seems like a looong time. With crossfeed, a decent amp/headphones can be a very believable way to listen, and I can easily go for hours. All because the crossfeed, while subtle, more closely mimics the way I hear everything in real life. I think.

Dane

Pretty good description of  it IMO. Not perfect but it helps. 'Smyth Realizer' is apparently the breakthrough product in the world of headphone spatial presentation. Early stage product right now so subject to the early adopter tax (also requires calibrating your cans, ears and head.) Read Ty'lls piece on innerfi; he was blown away.)

adydula

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Re: Amps with Crossfeed circuit?
« Reply #47 on: 16 May 2018, 02:06 pm »
Here are the circuits for the Meir, Xen and AmpCasq passive crossfeed circuits:








ajzepp

Re: Amps with Crossfeed circuit?
« Reply #48 on: 29 May 2018, 01:11 pm »
Dane.....

I will take a look at this again and if I can find a unit I will definitely give a listen...

But the unit I buit with the three crossfeed settings didnt impress me much at all....maybe its the circuit design? But it has a white paper on it describibg the postive merits etc....

If this idea is so great I would think most of the audiophile folks would have one...but most dont? So is it really that much more "better", more "life-like"? etc.

Also the comment about it wasnt popular because nobody understood what it does is a bit lame to me? To sell something  IMO I have to hear the difference and if its a small subtle difference and adds to the cost, its most likely doomed for retail failure...

I wonder if there are any of these stand alone Meier units around?  I will serach but if you know what the model # is please let me know...

Thanks
Alex

I actually notice it more when Im without it. Part of the reason it’s subtle is because to those of us who like it, it’s more natural. So something that presents as more realistic/natural to our ears/brain is likely not going to stand out the way other changes to the presentation might. I find that I generally avoid listening fatigue when Im using Jan’s amp vs when Im using my oppo portable. It may not be anything that appeals to you, but I love it. Jan is a legit genius and he’s a pleasure to deal with. He even went out of his way once to help me locate the town my family is from in Germany. Just a really good dude who sincerely cares about the end-user experience. And on top of that, builds some damn nice gear.

Yun66

  • Jr. Member
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Re: Amps with Crossfeed circuit?
« Reply #49 on: 29 May 2018, 04:45 pm »
I have a SPL Phonitor 2. I like its appearance, many switches, knobs and 2 VU meters. I turn on crossfeed only for music with fewer instruments, like solos or certain vocals. For orchestra, the soundstage will become narrower and doesn't sound good. Most times I leave it off. I think it's not for everyone and not for every types of music. You have to experiment with it to see if the music sounds more natural to your ears. YMMV is very true here.

dB Cooper

Re: Amps with Crossfeed circuit?
« Reply #50 on: 29 May 2018, 09:42 pm »
For sure, and it's a recording-by-recording YMMV situation too. When I used to use Canz3D, I'd insert the plugin using Audio Hijack and adjust the 'wet/dry' slider to get the 'best' soundstage I could. Something else you really can't do in hardware (maybe in the Phonitor but that's, like, three grand).