[Horizons]

I thought I would create another post for this subject rather than continue the extremely long thread on the digital receivers.

As some of you had read, I had been searching for an inexpensive digital receiver that would drive the 4 ohm, power hungry Maggie 1.6QRs. I tried the Pannies, not even close. The Sony units sounded better than the Panny but still would not drive the Maggies to levels that I needed.

Well, the JVC F10 GETS THE JOB DONE. This unit is still not fully burned in and it drives the Maggies superbly. It has a rather warm tonal balance but it also is shockingly good, it does sound like the best of tubes and solid state to my ears. I have no doubt that a pair of autoformers will help the match but I no longer consider it a requirement.

I did make one change after about a week of listening - I hooked a Y cable up to the outputs of my DIY DAC and split the signal to drive both the DVD and DVD/Multi surround inputs. Since the Maggie 1.6QR can be biwired, I drove the bass panels with the main amp outputs and drove the tweeter panels with the surround amps.  This setup gives me a little more gain and more headroom. I can now play the Maggies LOUD and clear.

There is some form of magical synergy going on here, digital amps and dipole planer speakers. I'm not sure what is responsible but I have never heard the Maggies sound better and I have driven them with amps by GAS, Sonic Frontier tubes, Marsh, Audire, Pass, Monarchy, NAD, Rotel, ASL, etc. The JVC just does it all. Any further audio expenditures will be in the form of room treatments and more music.

I have not hooked up my powered sub to the system and I am hoping that will not create a problem for the little JVC. I will report back when I have tried this. Frankly, the JVC/Maggie combo sounds so good that I really haven't missed the sub. I think that digital amps do such a superb job on the bass that I almost feel I could live without the sub entirely.

Thanks to everyone (ChairGuy, Richard, Starch, Gary, Geneylim, Kurt, etc.) for the information on the little JVC. Every time I sit down to listen to this $250 wonder my jaw drops at the depth, transparency and detail. When I factor in the price, it's almost a guilty pleasure.

[Dmason]

Horizons,

I remember Richard being astounded at how well the F 10 worked with his Maggies. It almost sounds like it works BEST with Maggies. I should think about taking mine over to the Mag. dealer here and "see" for myself. Congrats. Always nice to stumble across some synergy...

[TheChairGuy]

Hey Horizons,

Glad to hear back on this with such outstanding results  

I have my fully burned in JVC F10 driving the MMG's and, tho I have only driven them with one other amp/preamp combo (AudioSource AMP3 and Dynaco PAS-4), and it handily best them.  No strain at any level that I have heard now.  Yes, I think it may improve with autoformers (or Ryanformers   ), but it really seems to be playing them without strain currently.

The MMG's, themselves, need a bit of tweaking to reach audiophile status (my opinion), but it comforting to know I already have an amp quite capable of driving them successfully when fully tweeked out.  Tho I'd love to own the 1.6's, room size is more conducive to the MMG's for me.

I found the older ES1sl to be warmer and more 'tublelike' in the midrange (and I am not a tube lover, per se, but loved the ES1's interpretation of it), but it was completely incapable of driving the Maggies.  Overall for me, the ES1sl + Vandersteen 1c was excellent in many regards, but falls short of the guilty (teehee) pleasure I get from the F10 + MMG.

Great to hear back from ya' on this development....

[MonkeyK]

Since the Maggie 1.6QR can be biwired, I drove the bass panels with the main amp outputs and drove the tweeter panels with the surround amps. This setup gives me a little more gain and more headroom. I can now play the Maggies LOUD and clear.

Sorry for the newbie question:  Is this what is referred to as BiAmping?
I've seen other descriptions involving two seperate amps with the output chained, but using output from the front and surround channels sounds promising in terms of simplicty.

I thought that I read that the Panasonic SA-XR70 is capable of this by using the A-B speakers.

Horizons, did you try multiple chanels going into the seperate panels with the other digital receivers that you tried?  Also, by LOUD and clear what do you mean?  Without doing this did you need to play at particularly low volume?

[Horizons]

MonkeyK:

No, biamping usually refers to using a low level electronic xover to drive separate amplifiers powering hi and low speakers. The advantage of biamping is that you eliminate the high level speaker xover.

Biwiring is just using a separate set of wires running directly to the tweeter xover and a set of wires running to the woofer xover.  I personally don't buy the biwiring story but in this instance I was able to use this feature to drive the Maggies with 4 separate amplifier channels in the JVC receiver.

I did try the Panny X45 in party mode and it didn't cut it. I am not dissing the Panny, it's just that the Maggie 1.6QRs are pretty hard to drive. The Sony unit I tried sounded ALMOST as good as the JVC but didn't have enough volume.

The difference between driving it with 2 channels or 4 channels was not major. I just thought it gave me a little more headroom and gain. Also note that my DIY DAC has a passive output stage and provides very low gain. Your source may not have this problem. I am currently building a tube output stage for my DAC so I have enough gain.

ChairGuy:

I have heard the Vandies, they are about the only cone speaker that I really like. I used to have the MMGs, trust me the 1.6 is not THAT much better than the mini Maggie. In some ways at lower volumes, I think the MMGs are more romantic and forgiving. BTW, I tweeked the hell out of my pair. If I had a pair now, you would be surprised what I would do to them. Let me know if you need any suggestions on tweaking those MMGs.

Dmason: Sorry I forgot to thank you as your posts were some of the best I read on the digital receiver subject.

[TheChairGuy]

Horizons,

I'd love to hear about your tweeks on the MMG's....post a new topic in The Lab on it or add to this topic that Ulas posted recently on his 15 year old MG3 tweaks....

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=15597

Yes, the original audiohead that first took notice of the alluring JVC sound in a San Diego Good Guys store long ago was Dr.Digi Dmason.  The rest, as is said, is history......  

[Horizons]

Horizons,

I'd love to hear about your tweeks on the MMG's....post a new topic in The Lab on it or add to this topic that Ulas posted recently on his 15 year old MG3 tweaks....

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=15597

Yes, the original audiohead that first took notice of the alluring JVC sound in a San Diego Good Guys store long ago was Dr.Digi Dmason.  The rest, as is said, is history......  

OK ChairGuy, I just posted a few tweaks in the Lab. Those MMGs really are worthy of a few tweaks. With a little work, they are capable of sounding amazingly close to the 12 and 1.6. I should know, I have owned all three speakers (in addition to Tympanis, MG1, MG2, etc.

[MonkeyK]

You guys convinced me!  I ordered the RX-F10 from Amazon (they have it on clearance for $231 shipped).  

Now I just have to convince the wife to let me buy the Maggies!

[guest1632]

OK ChairGuy, I just posted a few tweaks in the Lab. Those MMGs really are worthy of a few tweaks. With a little work, they are capable of sounding amazingly close to the 12 and 1.6. I should know, I have owned all three speakers (in addition to Tympanis, MG1, MG2, etc.

Hi, Well, I had listened to a pair of maggies a long time ago, and the only thing that bugged me about them was it seemed a slightly exaggerated lower about 500 hz or so a broad exaggeration of the mids. Otherwise, they sounded great. could you give some details on that JVC receiver? thanks.

Ray

[TheChairGuy]

Hey Ray,


There's at least 4 topics devoted to the JVC's here in MultiChannel and Digital Circle.  It's quite a looong read, but near everythign you need to know is in one or more.

No one yet has found them to be anything less than good value...and some of us have dumped rather more expensive gear in favor of it.  It's a seriously stellar effort from JVC at the price.

[TheChairGuy]

Horizons,

Thanks for the mods post in The Lab - quite helpful.

You don't mention your associated equipment with the JVC, but it benefits rather immensely with good power conditioning.  I have it on my BPT-2 (with significant upgrades) and I'm not sure I'd be as enthused about the JVC's without it.  It simply takes on altogether new life with great power conditioning.  If you don't have good power conditioning now, wait till you hear the JVC with it.  Beyond heaven I bet on those 1.6's.

Interestingly, I hardwired in a 10 ga LAT International powercord and I found little benefit in doing so.  It's the first component I found that didn't benefit from it.  Tho, it's the first component I added a power cord to since I've had the BPT in the mix.  I had Highwire Powerwrap on the JVC cord prior to that, so that may have attentuated some of the RF out (essentailly duping the effect of a good shielded power cord - which the LAT is) before it reached my ears, too.

[guest1632]

Hey Ray,


There's at least 4 topics devoted to the JVC's here in MultiChannel and Digital Circle.  It's quite a looong read, but near everythign you need to know is in one or more.

No one yet has found them to be anything less than good value...and some of us have dumped rather more expensive gear in favor of it.  It's a seriously stellar effort from JVC at the price.
Isn't that the one that was being sold for $85, or am I thinking of something else by JVC. Wait a second, that was the Sharp unit. I'll look down the list of topics.

Ray

[Horizons]

Horizons,

Thanks for the mods post in The Lab - quite helpful.

You don't mention your associated equipment with the JVC, but it benefits rather immensely with good power conditioning.  I have it on my BPT-2 (with significant upgrades) and I'm not sure I'd be as enthused about the JVC's without it.  It simply takes on altogether new life with great power conditioning.  If you don't have good power conditioning now, wait till you hear the JVC with it.  Beyond heaven I bet on those 1.6's.

Interesting ...

ChairGuy:

Yes, I am using my home-brew DIY version of Richard Gray's Power Company unit that I actuall read about here on AudioCircle. It's basically a large transformer and several large poly caps connected to a heavy duty outlet strip. I haven't used the JVC without it and based on your advice, I will just leave it in there.

I threw a few RF chokes on the JVC power cord but I haven't looked at a PC upgrade. I have to say that I am not a big believer in PC upgrades. I won't rule it out but I won't throw big bucks at this either. After six months or so with the JVC I MIGHT, take a look under the hood. If it looks easy enough, I might replace some of the PS caps with Black Gates. Every time I have done this on a piece of gear it always results in a faster, cleaner and quieter component.

I listened to the JVC/Maggies last night and was floored again. I seriously believe that the little JVC slays anything I have heard under $2K. It's that good. I was not a believer in digital amps after hearing the Panny, I was sort of interested when I heard the Sony, and I am SOLD after hearing the JVC. Maybe I am a sucker for that Tripath warmth.

[TheChairGuy]

Horizons,

None of us are sure it's Tripath in there...I think the general consensus is that it is JVC's own technology...tho they seem more similar than different in a few ways.

Change out your outlet to something a little more audiophile in quality (if you haven't already)...the JVC responds well to that, too.  I use a PS Audio Power Port ($50), a big change from the $0.50 outlets originally, but I heard no benefit when I moved from an Eagle 8300 hospital grade I used in between.  The Eagle's are under $10 at Lowe's.

I have gotten massive improvements using the LAT power cord on a few pieces with IEC inlets...the JVC was the first that didn't benefit at all from it.  I think much of the credit for power cords goes to RF and and EM rejection....something that a good power conditioner does before it reaches the component. I imagine a good PC also provides a lower inductance pathway to the component, but that seems secondary to good RF and EM rejection (in my rudimentary audio understanding of things   ).

If you run the JVC from the wall now, you'll begin to think of it as a nice little $250 receiver.  Thru a good power conditioner, I think your estimate of $2000 is spot on, or a little low (factoring in tuner/preamp/amp and 2 sets IC's saved).

[JeffB]

I went to JVC's website looking for information on the RX-F10.  It would appear that JVC is no longer producing it.

The JVC site lists the following gear:
    
RX-DP20VBK
Audio Video Control Receiver
THX Ultra 2/ THX Surround EX certified Receiver, Ultra High Current Dynamic Super A Power Amps, 7.1 channel output.
MSRP $2499.95
   
RX-DP15B
7.1 Channel Audio/ Video Receiver
THX Ultra 2/ THX Surround EX certified receiver, Ultra High Current Dynamic Super A Power Amps, 7.1 channel output.
MSRP $1899.95
      
RX-8040B
Audio Video Control Receiver
130 watt x 6 receiver with multi-room, multi -ource and quick speaker set-up.
MSRP $449.95
      
RX-7042S
Audio/ Video Control Receiver
The JVC RX-7042 features premium performance with high current 130 watt x 6.
MSRP $329.95
      
RX-7040B
Audio/Video Control Receiver
The JVC RX-7040 features premium performance with high current 130 watt x 6.
MSRP $329.95
      
RX-6042S
Audio/ Video Control Receiver
5.1 Channel, 100 Watts per channel receiver
MSRP $219.95
      
RX-6040B
Audio/Video Control Receiver
5.1 Channel, 100 Watts per channel receiver
MSRP $219.95
      
RX-DV31SL
DVD Audio Video Receiver
100 x 5 DVD Receiver with progressive scan output
MSRP $439.95
   
RX-318BK
Audio Receiver
110 watt x 2 channel
MSRP $149.95


Does anybody know how any of these compare to the RX-F10?  I am really only interested in 2 channel audio.  The RX-318BK has only two channels at a rock bottom price, but does it sound like an RX-F10?

I tried searching the other threads but was not finding any information.

[mcgsxr]

http://www.jvc.ca/en/consumer/product-detail.asp?model=RX-F10S is the Canadian site for the F-10, hope this helps.

[MonkeyK]

ChairGuy,

So, it's worthwhile to upgrade my outlet to a Eagle 8300 hospital grade.  That sounds easy enough.

Would it be worthwhile to remove the stock powercord and replace it with something like one of these kits?  I imagine this would be a rather simple mod.

And then you are recommending a power conditioner.  If the RX-F10 has a 6x100Watt output then I want something like a 5 amp conditioner right (5x120=600)?  And that's assuming that I upgrade the power cord.  I think Wayne mentioned in another thread that the stock inlet on the Panny XRs is only rated to 2.5 amps.


Thanks for any advice or schooling you are willing to impart.

[Dmason]

Replacing the outlet is not necessary; There are two "lugs" on the power inlet assembly which are easy to solder the leads of good power cord to. When you pull out the white AC pig tail, you will see them.

The inside is pretty busy, micro soldering skills are  required for in here.

Sonically I think the "hybrid dual digital feedback" system is different from Tripath, -but more similar than different, in that they both seem to be able to combine a certain warmth with a highly resolving nature. The JVC seems to have a sort of "airy" sound, would anyone agree with that comparison? that would go nicely with stats, yeah I can see the synergy potential... My guess is this is JVC's own topology, with a view to future developments, recognizing that this is the future. The F10 also benefits greatly from good mechanical isolation, I have found. I have damped the case and put a ten pound slab of slate on top, and it sits on Panda feet. It also goes really nicely with small gauge OTA continuous cast Cu/teflon stuff, which also is very easy to use with the cheezy spring things in the back...these little tweaks make it a really really nice sounding amp. If only our resident electrical engineer can come up with a battery pack for it...

[TheChairGuy]

JeffB,

Weirdest thing is JVC US's site has never listed either the F10  or previous 5.1 version, the ES1sl.  The only description of it in in the Home Theatre package area...bundled with speakers, subs and DVD players of various costs and sizes.  As mcgsxr points out, it's on the Cdn site (and, I think, Australia's also?)

Very weird, almost like they are ashamed of it outclassing the higher priced analog receivers they have in the line. I don't know a thing about the other receivers in JVC's line...but if they aren't a hybrid digital technology, I doubt they sound similar.

[Dmason]

Market driven. People are conditioned to buy that which is big and black. Small and thin might be perceived as "cheap."    JVC is hedging their bets. Look at the technology as a testing of the waters.

ex: apparently Panasonic was watching and listening. The SA70 now has a bi amp option. What a Swiss Army Knife of an audio tool.

No one has mentioned the remote. I LOVE it. Nicest remote ever. Volume feel and response is perfect for me.