[Dmason]

KT,

I have been using the ES1 with wide-rangers for awhile now; Jordan JX92S in pipes, and Fostex 207 and F200A in ported cabinets w/ sub... It sounds fantastically musical. The F10 sounds very, very good, but "more" SS-like, for want of a better description.

My first impression when I could audition the ES1 in quiet with some decent speakers, (91db/6 Monitor Audio Silver S6, a real sleeper,) was that it came dangerously close to getting that "beguiling" thing right. It has an almost hypnotic effect on my listening, a VERY liquid sound, and that effect is transduced to much greater effect now, using active drivers like the Fostii and the Jordans. I could be very happy long term with the JVC running the Jordans in a 31" pipe.

Please tell us more about how you use which Lowthers and Altecs. Doesn't get much better than that.

[Horizons]

>>I'm not sure I am a planar-head for life

Well I am. Once you get used to really good planar sound (right planar, right setup, right electronics, right room) THEN just try to go back to boxes. As I stated earlier, I think the Vandies are the only monkey coffin speakers that I would ever consider.

I am probably repeating myself again (this happens when you get older, another birthday this month) but you should really think twice before upgrading your MMGs to the 12 or 1.6. As much as I love my 1.6ers, those MMGs have a certain romantic and forgiving quality and are pretty easy to drive. Are you using a sub with the MMGs? If you do and cross it over low and roll it off fast, the MMG/sub combo when done right is a giant killer speaker IMHO. Driven by the JVC F10, I would think it would be even better in certain respects than the JVC/1.6 combo.

Just think of the bang for buck here: MMGs + JVC + decent CDP. You could do this for under a grand. Wow.

[Dmason]

Has anyone first hand auditioned the MMG-W? Those interest me more than the larger models.

Something like that, with a pair of small subs might also be a good combination with the F10, and for smaller rooms.

Does anyone know what effect the doubling of impedance thru autoformers has on sensitivity? Is there an ETA on the Ryanformers?

[ryno]

A month ago, I pulled down my HT setup for a remodel, and set up the MMGW's in my bedroom system to see if wanted to order another pair for in there. As with all maggies positioning is very important. I found you needed to have the speakers as far apart, as from the listening position.  In my room, 12x12 I couldn't and the image was very poor. When I sat at the end of the bed, it all snapped back into place. At the dealer I heard the spendy 2-ways where they were mounted on the side walls ~3feet from the front corners, and further apart than from the LP, and They were ammmazing..
So, if mounted right the have the same strengths as the floor standers, huge soundstage, great image, and the same limits, bass and dynamics, revealing of upstream components. To bad your not in the midwest, they're just sitting in a closet right now.
Ryan

[TheChairGuy]

Hi Chair Guy,

Thanks so much for sharing your experiences. Having followed the discussion for several months, now, I finally decided to spring for one of the JVC's, which I bought just 2 days ago.

I must defer to your experience, as no one else seems to have as much experience as you in comparing the 2 JVC amps, the ES1sl and the F10.

I ended up getting the F10, but now I see that you preferred the ES1sl in term of the midrange, and now I'm wondering if I bought the wrong amp.

My speaker load is ...

Hey KT,

Exactly as Dmason stated.  The ES1 is definitely more tubelike and the F10 is more brutish solid state sounding.  It's a matter of preference is all.

The odd thing, however, is that I am not typically fond of tube amplification in general.  Where folks hear enveloping midrange I hear odd; warm bass means bloated to me; listenable highs sounds clipped to these ears.  It's all my opinion, but I've now heard so much tube gear in my life that the results are broadly similar in my hearing.

Now, the weirdest is tho I absolutely put the ES1 in the tubelike camp....I like it better than the F10 (and I like the F10!).

If I've left you at this point looking for the nearest noose or loaded shotgun...sorry    I'm confused by it myselt...but dammit, that's the conclusion I keep coming back to.

FYI, I sold my ES1 to Kevad and he also owns the F10 now.  So, maybe he can give us his thoughts if he's around.

I didn't mind parting with it because the F10 is the only receiver of the two that drives the Maggies.  That combo is pure gold for 800 beans...so I don't pine for the ES1.

[TheChairGuy]

I should add that all listening on both receivers was done with a BPT BP-2 cleaning things up rather well.  Without the BPT, the sound of both receivers is decidly average.

I spent some time in the BPT/ZCable/Cryotweaks room at T.H.E. Show yesterday and they were using a bone stock $700 Sony digital receiver and it sounded great in there.  The key was massive amounts of EMI and RFI filtration.  They used a BP-3 and lots of ZSleeves and the result was most enjoyable.

So, I temper anything I say about the JVC's because your results may not be the same as mine if you don't have pristine, clean power being used.  The levels of resolution on the digital devices is so much higher than analog it's more important than ever to make sure what goes in is pristine; because what comes out will be a mirrored reflestion of it.

[KT]

Thanks for the insights into this, guys. I think the ES1sl is more to my taste and I'll be keeping my eye out for one of those.

I know quite well about you have to work hard to get the system sounding it's best. I'll look into power conditioning as I go along.

In truth, the real reason I'm interested in these receivers at all is that I've spent too much of the last few years fiddling around with building and modding my audio rig. Too much time spent swapping things in and out.

Though it is great fun and definitely a worthwhile pursuit, it's been taking up too much of my headspace, trying to think about the best ways to build all of my projects. It's no good when I've got so many things to build that I'm never actually done.

So this year I'm cutting back on the tweaking and building, looking for a simple rig that sounds good and is easy to use, and won't beacon me to tweak it too much. I think this may fit the bill.

I say that, but of course I'll alway be building or tweaking something to some dgree or another...  

Anyhow, thanks for the great thread and the useful insights.

Best,
KT

[JDUBS]

Hey guys,

Does anyone know how many amps the F10 pulls?  I've got a OneAC 1107 and I want to make sure its up to snuff before I plug the F10 in.

Btw, its sounding quite nice with my Dennis Murphy Polk Rti28's and dual Yamaha YST-SW205 subs on my computer system.  Can't wait till I get it burned in!

Source is a modded E-MU 0404 sound card with Stan Warren interconnects.

Thanks!

-Jim

[KT]

Dmason,

Well, due to space considerations (small New York apartment), my Lowthers are packed away in boxes. I got them when I was in graduate school in Rhode Island several years back, and because I knew I was going to be moving after I finished I used them with those "little" nasty ported boxes that everyone pisses all over. They did the job for those couple of years, though the cabinets were peaky and left a lot to be desired. They're the DX-3s with the old whizzers. I treated them with C37 which is some good stuff on the Lowthers.

I have 6 pair of Altec 755Es, all in mint looking condition. I was very lucky and retrieved them from the trash when the school I work for remodeled. They threw out two tall Altec cabinets, each containing six drivers.

Actually, I wasn't familiar with the 755 at that point but quickly found out that I was a very lucky guy, indeed!

Because of my space constraints, I plan on building the 2' cubed boxes. Should sound good enough for the time being.

In the future, I hope to put them in an open baffle design, perhaps in something like the Orion or BassZilla. But that's sometime off in the future. Eventually, I would love to set up a 6 channel SACD multi-channel setup with the drivers - perhaps using an amp like the F10 or a futrue version of it for amplification. Wouldn't that be a treat!

Anyhow, I've received the ES1 and it does sound very promising. So far it sound more supple and liquid than the F10 did. The F10 was warm and smooth, but more muscular sounding. But never mind these initial impressions - I've only listened to each for less than a day so far (ha ha!). So I look forward to the day when it reaches it full break-in. Should be nice.

Thanks so much for the advice.

Best,
KT

[Dmason]

KT,

You are noticing the same JVC differences everyone else does; just different flavors, within the same ice cream...I prefer the ES1, but the F10 has more balls, more something in there.

I believe you may have too many Altecs, and in case your place ever got sacked, you should consider spreading them around abit, so as to preserve the gene pool. They breed well in captivity, especially with open baffle enclosures. The 2ft^3 cab is bigger than you think. And I believe it is more than 2 ft.

I know of someone using either the Panny or the JVC for his Basszilla Platinum, with the 208sigmas and Fountek ribbon. This is a very simple design that works. Maybe a barter/buy sell arrangement, the Altecs for the Founteks I have, if you feel you have too many.

[KT]

Dmason,

I guess we're getting off topic, now, but PM me with more information on the Fountek. I'll look them up to see if I can use them.

Also, I'm also interested in hearing more about your Fostex F200As and Jordans. The F200As have really fired my imagination - I've heard so many good things about them. Also, the Jordans sound very nice. I've been curious about them since 47 Labs started pairing them with their gear.

Anyhow, maybe we can continue our conversation via PM.

Best,
KT

[JeffB]

Chairguy made the following comment:
"I should add that all listening on both receivers was done with a BPT BP-2 cleaning things up rather well. Without the BPT, the sound of both receivers is decidly average. "

I did not know anything about the BPT BP-2 so after some research I found this 6 moons review:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/bpt/bp2.html

One comment made earlier on is that a power conditioner is only useful if your power is dirty to begin with.  Or the dirtier the power, the more useful the product.

Is there an inexpensive means of determining how dirty your power is?
I was at Circuit City around Christmas buying a TV.  The salesman tried to sell me some power conditioning from Monster Cable and performed a little demonstration.  He plugged some box into a power outlet and it buzzed loudly.  He then plugged this box into the power conditioner and it was silent.  I have no idea what the box was actually doing though.

Finally,
Equi=Tech's website claims lowered system noise floor and concomitant exploded dynamic range by up to 16-20dB. Removal of ultra-sonic line harmonics is said to reduce digital component jitter by up to 70%.

[TheChairGuy]

Hey Jeff,

Suffice to say, your AC line isn't set up to do duty as audio or video ideal...it's designed to makes appliances, lights turn on and run, etc.  High fidelity, and later video, came around far after the advent of AC of course and hasn't changed much in the past decades.

I've never quantified the quality in any house I've lived in.....but have found improvement in early every hifi equipment and video equipment I've used with even a modicum of clean power and filtration.  I have a little Monster Cable PowerBar and CyberPower UPS on my video system and they both helped quite a bit...for a cost of only about $275 for both.

These digital amps have much higher resolution than SS and tube amplification devices...the noise floor is lower (in an absolute sense) and the resolution is just greater.  You tend to hear the flaws in the mains power quite a bit more acutely than SS or tube equipment.

I had the PS Audio PP300 Power Plant for a while.  It helped my (then) solid state amps mostly...but added to much back that was objectionable.  I bought the BPT unit and it improved, however I was more aware of the deficiencies of those SS amps when I did (note: the sound you hear is only as good as it's weakest link in the chain).

Using the JVC in conjunction with the BPT provides a really great match.  Both are high quality: the JVC has wonderful resolution but must be fed absolutely clean power.  If I could run it on clean pure DC I would...barring that the BPT is nearly as effective.  The BPT improved the resolution of my DAC based front end, too..rather dramatically.

My BPT has considerable upgrades that help things further; upgraded litz cord, ers cloth within, internal and extenernal ZSleeves, hi-frequency filter and mechanical isolation footers.  They all served to make the BPT better by feeding the JVC cleaner power.  It's absolutely essential for digital or hybrid digital amps to have the best power you can provide them.

Barring and investment of $1500 in the BPT (other models go for more, too, and balanced power units from other makers that are probably good, too), there are lesser clean power alternatives that will help.

Simply changing out your $.50 outlet to a good $40 audiophile one (I have heard that the cryo'ed ones are truly better, but not heard it myself to know) and shilding the JVC cord (with ZSleeve, ers cloth or $25 Highwire PowerWrap) will be an inexpensive lesson as to how important EM and RF filtration is to digital amplification.  For very little, they will help you get the best from your JVC.  Add a good power filter and you will advance further; add a Balanced Power unit and upgrades and you will get further.  It's just a matter of how far you want to go, and spend, to achieve your 'nirvana'.

The absolute top stud-muffin that I know of in knowlege about digital amplification and clean power is Mark Hampton of ZCable.  He's a down to earth, soft spoken Nebraskan that is patient if you need questions answered.  He set me on the right trail about a year ago when I bought ZSLeeves from him.  If you're a believer in digital amplification, or believe you might be, you owe it to contact Mark and get the scoop.

Mike of CryoTweaks is probably a good second and has a terrific selection of stuff to choose from, as well.

I'm not in the least affiliated with them/him, but I think their advice is stellar in this category  

[TheChairGuy]

I should note that, for me, music is mostly about resolution, dynamics and tone (can't quantify - it's either pleasing or it's not to me)...and this is what good digital amplification, and clean power provide.  I suspect the little JVC is lacking in many audiophile areas that I neither hear nor care about, so it all comes down to personal decision once again.

Image height, depth, warm bass or midrange, enveloping midrange, speed are all things that tend to elude me.  Resolution, dynamics and tone are the things that matter to me...and digital amplification provide this better than any previous type to me.

[JeffB]

Thanks for the info ChairGuy.  What appeals to me about the JVC is its $229 price tag including full featured remote.  I want great sound, but I am not a total audiofile nut.  If I give up a little in quality I don't care.  However, it is disappointing to think that I might need to spend another $1500 to make it shine.  This puts me shopping back in the high dollar bracket, and once in this  bracket, I have no favorites as to digital, tube or SS.  Although, I tend to think I might prefer the tubes.  Well, I'll probably get the JVC and maybe some minimal conditioning and see what I think.  

I currently have a $40 Power Sentry Surge Protector that states it eliminates 95% of EMI and RMF interference.  Any thoughts about the likely quality of this unit.

My house has the old two pronged outlets.  My surge protector is plugged into it using a 3 prong to 2 prong adapter.  I currently haven't even grounded the adapter to the screw.  How important is the ground prong?
This outlet and surge protector are feeding an LCD rear projection TV, DVD player and cable box.

The things that matter most to me sound wise are dynamics and that instruments sound like real instruments(transparency?).

The reference that I would like my system to outperform is a NAD C370.  And I have heard this NAD put a $2000 Denon HT amp to shame.

[AphileEarlyAdopter]

ChairGuy and friends,
Please check out a new power conditioning device - 'Furman Power Factor Pro'. I bought it for $220 from including shipping from 8thstreet.com. This is a power factor correction device. Power factor is the phase lag between the voltage and the current cycle i.e you may not be getting the expected current at a particular point in the voltage cycle. It will come 'later' (phase lag). Furman, a pro equipment manufacturer is pitching this to musicians, saying it will improve the dynamics of their keyboard, guitar amps etc.
Power factor correction is part of the elaborate power supply in a $30K Halcro amp and also in highend Crown pro amps. Actually, Halcro, credits most of their sound to the power factor correction in their power supply. This is probably one reason battery power supply works wonders. There are no phase lag there. Dmason's description of the sound of the Clari-T gives you the impression, the battery supply is prompt and generous with the current.  
This Furman also has surge suppression and four outlets. I have plugged my Blue Circle Music Ring 1200 balanced power conditioner into this now. Initially, I found the music was sounding little 'uneven'. Now that the christmas lights are off and the two big capacitors in the Furman are broken in, the Furman is giving a nice 'push' to my music. Normal, my volume control displays high 30s. Now with the Furman it is in the low 40s. If I go into the high 30s, I can really feel it is very loud.  Maybe the well-defined tight bass now makes me feel it is louder.
But anybody who is even a wee bit interested in power conditioning should check this out.

[tex-amp]

Great thread hijack!  

My OneAC off ebay arrived today I was just about to ask how the heck does this thing tame highs, tighten bass, improve PRaT, and make everything cleaner in general?  I was really skeptical but with shipping it was $15 so I thought if it doesn't do any thing that is the same as getting  a CD that sucks.  I should have known I've got bad power with the number of outages we have.

[TheChairGuy]

Jeff,

I don't think you have to spring for $1500.00 to immensely enjoy the JVC....there may be less expensive alternatives; I just don't personally have experience with them.

I can tell you that I am extreeeeemely pleased with how my system sounds (with JVC F10 amplification) only after the purchase of my BPT unit.  The level of resolution (nee, clarity) is higher on digi amps than either SS or tubes it seems, and begs for the highest level of clean, low impedance mains power you can afford to provide it.  While the entry price of these digi receivers is attractive - the cost to get truly outstanding results tends to be a bit higher.  But think of it...for $1800 (JVC + BPT) you get an amp, preamp, tuner, remote control, hookup simplicity and space left in your rack for other things.

The BPT further provides enhancement to a $4500 (or so) front end I have.  Crazy?  Maybe; but I don't find the urge to swap out amplification equipment anymore.  Rather, I found the limiting factor of late has beeen the speakers..something I believe I have remedied by adopting a slightly used Magenpan (and now modding it)

I am not a sound engineer, and definitely not a competent player of musical instruments based on my stabs at saxophone, harmonica and guitar in the past  .  I am amazed (and a bit suspicious of charlatans, I may add) by others that can pick out this n' that in some piece or another...because I usually cannot.  But, as my 2 channel system is in my office and I work from this office (in my home) most days not travelling 7:45 to 6 PM (and then listen occasionally on weekends)....I tend to be aggravated by things not right to my ears quite quickly.

Everything has been RIGHT to these ears and brain  since the BPT met the JVC (either the ES1sl or F10).

I'm now back 4 years into good sound once again...after shelving my gear for 7 years while I began entrepenurial ventures and family.  For the first time in all those years I am abundantly pleased with what I hear every day, each hour.

The suspicions I have about the OneAC's are the same I have had about the PS Audio Power Plant; the idea is good, the implementation (read: parts and EMI/RFI internal filtration) is poor due to cost constraints. The Power Plant sure lowered the noise floor, but the music always raised the hairs on my neck...in ways that was not good, all in all.   Modding sure helps, but if you're not truly an experienced welder or modder, you're looking at a 'professional' mod that'll approach the cost of othe BPT anyhow.  Any way you cut it, a pleasing sound experience will cost you something unfortunately...and the attractive initial entry cost of these nifty little digi receivers (the JVC, at least) is somewhat outweighed by the fact that they require high levels of clean, low impedance power to get it all from them (more so than most tube or SS amplification).  When you do, you'll simply be amazed, however.

I hope you reach the same level of satisfaction and, reach it for less then a BPT costs.  And, if you do, let us all know now, will ya'?  

[budyog]

This is what I feared, 2 - channel coming to an end? Please do not let it! I haven't made it to to my 2 channel dream system yet/ I  cannot even aford my 2- channel dream system yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I just read somewwheret that  we are being fazed out!!!!!!!!!!! No , No do not let it happen!!!!!!!!!!

[mcgsxr]

Not sure why you would think that 2 channel is dying - the system that TheChairGuy describes, though powered by a receiver capable of providing surround sound, IS a 2 channel system.

I have several Teac multichannel amps, but listen only in 2 channel.

To quote Mr Clapton - It's in the way that you use it...