[zako]

Hello every one in St Louis audio scene.   Been away from StL for awhile moved up to Northeast MO.   Mark Twain Lake (no I dont fish)   Nice quiet place to retire.  (no drive by shootings)   Im from the old audio school,  Bigger is better. More horns the better.   I built two JBL Paragons, Found another in Salvation Army store. Also had a JBL Metragon.   Now have a modified Klipschorn  (buy a Klipsch throw away the guts)  Was into tubes (Toooobs) got tired of scratch building , peaking the grids, dipping the plates swapping tubes, Hefting transformers etc... Dont get me wrong I like tubes.   I,m now happy with SS,  Krell,  Esotec, into LP,s CDs  Tapes.  Iwas recording engineer for St Louis Philharmonic from 1970 till 1989 we broadcast the tapes on KWMU every Sunday.  Disbanded that after they decided to go talk radio.  I still have all those master tapes.  Also recorded Washingtin U. Wind ensomble,  Plus other college schools around StL.    It got tireing to lug all that recording equip.  But it was fun to do live recording.      The old school audio pals I hung around with were (name dropping)  Paul Klipsch. His ol croanies Paul Kerrenbroch , Loyed Smith,  Bob Shaw,  George Ashworth.     Ashworth was the scientist that worked along with  Klipsch on speaker compliance modifications  For the bass bin .   As Paul Klipsch always said That horn is a tweekers dream.        The first Klipschorn I ever saw was downtown StL. At Walter Asche Radio.  And Van Sickle Radio stores.   I guess horn speakers are my favorites.     Except those puny wimpy simpy girly horn Lowthers.  I can piss louder than those single driver speakers.         Ill talk more with you guys later.....    LoL      Maron

[Scott F.]

Hiya Maron,

Hello every one in St Louis audio scene.
Been away from StL for awhile moved up to Northeast MO....

Welcome back!

I guess horn speakers are my favorites. Except those puny wimpy simpy girly horn Lowthers.
I can piss louder than those single driver speakers. Ill talk more with you guys later..... LoL

uuuummmm...... I the true spirit of Chistmas, I'll leave that statement be. I'll just say this, you just haven't heard Lowthers done right. I'd like to take this moment to extend a personal invitation to you to come out and give them a listen.

You are right in the fact that they come nowhere near a good front loaded horn like a KHorn, JBL or an Altec. I just ask that you keep an open mind. Better yet, keep a closed mind and I'll let my gear convince you that Lowthers can sound far better than you've ever heard before (hint-I don't run them full range, think active crossover, vintage 15" subs, bi-amped). Heres a link so you can get a feel for what I'm talking about.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=471

[Mike D]

Way to go, Zako!  Now you've pissed him off... on Christmas!  

It's ON now.  

Just kidding!  Your smack talking is most welcome.  

I'm anxious to meet you.  Your recording experience with the SLP is interesting to me.  Blackmore, his wife, Steve K, and I are all trumpet players so there are boud to be some interesting conversations.


Merry Christmas!

Mike

[steve k]

Welcome aboard the bozo bus, Maron, and a Merry Christmas! What a nice Christmas present to the GAS gang--another new member oozing with audio experience! And a Lowther challenge to boot!

Mike, you're right, it's definitely ON now!

I remember hearing the SLP many times and met Bob Shaw at J.C. Gordon's many moons ago--it was my first experience with Maggies. I won't go into all that though. Bob was telling me about recording the SLSO at the time. Those were the days.

Glad you moved back.
steve k

[zako]

Scott...... Please dont take offence...  I won,t kill you,,,,Yet.     My expierence with Lowthers go back to Lowther cornerreproducers Model T.P.1  Type A  and model D  Also the Acousta 115 folded horn.  Also ive heard the Mauhorn  IV,  & V . in Chicago many times.   The bass is still week.   They still lack that slam and peel the green off your teeth that you can get from ...JBL  Hartsfield,s  or Klipschorns... Even with the cheapass drivers Klipsch uses.  Thats why I modified the drivers in mine.    Yes using a good sub woofer is needed with the Lowthers.   And Ive heard subswoofers used with Khorns with good results.      Scott ... in your photo.. What is that thingy on top of the Lowther cabinets ...Tweeters?  what kind?       I too am using electronic xovers ,  Tri amped.  Thats 6 amps heating this  place.      I dont mean to bitch slap Lowther owners But in buying that driver get the biggest magnet they got ...Lots of flux density.   Ill get to that later plus some details on Alnico vs ferrite  (both are good)    JBL  has a new woofer 1500AL  in the flagship  K2  S98000    This is one hell of a new woofer design  They have completely redesigned  all of there woofers and drivers    Out paceing  T.A.D  A great company...   Thats a story within a story.    I was going to wait till new years day to get on this sit when every body was Sh!!t faced and hung over... But debbie said get an early start & pick on some body else.             Maron Horonzak

[zako]

Steve K........Dont get out of SACD yet    Good things are happening in that format.    DSD  recording technology has taken a good turn for the better as well as DVDaudio.    You might want to get a good universal player next year.     RCA accidently found buy going to DSD masters first then going back to straight CD  It sounded as good as SACD.   I couldnt believe it untill Heard it my self.   Try thr new Living Stereo SACD series . All of them (10)   Plus 10 more coming out in Jan 24  05

[Scott F.]

Scott...... Please dont take offence...  I won,t kill you,,,,Yet.     My expierence with Lowthers go back to Lowther cornerreproducers Model T.P.1  Type A  and model D  Also the Acousta 115 folded horn.  Also ive heard the Mauhorn  IV,  & V . in Chicago many times.   The bass is still week.   They still lack that slam and peel the green off your teeth that you can get from ...JBL  Hartsfield,s  or Klipschorns... Even with the cheapass drivers Klipsch uses.  Thats why I modified the drivers in mine. ...

Agreed. No offense taken. You can't compare Lowthers to a front loaded horn, noway, nohow. The Acoustas and for that matter nearly any other enclosure that people stuff Lowthers into (to my ears) don't work. Thats exactly why I use subs. Not just any sub but a vintage 15" Why vintage? Alnico and short xmax. Any other sub I've tried sounds slow and sloppy. These blend as seemlessly as any I've heard.

You also need to know, my all time favorite speaker I've heard is the JBL Hartsfield. The one Classic Audio Reproduction makes with the TAD drivers. Til, I can scrape up oh say $20k, I'm very happy listening to my gurly-man Lowthers. Oh, they are the PM2A's (2.1 tesla). That 'tweeter is a Pioneer PT-3 horn crossed at around 16k, 1st order (simple cap, (vitiman Q paper in oil actually)).

Now in the same vein, tri-amped, front loaded horns and Krells, have you got any ears left much less skin? My God man, people could hear that rig on the other side of the State  

... But debbie said get an early start & pick on some body else.

Oh, now I understand where you are coming from  Thats cool, we can dish it as well as we can take it

Seriously, plan on coming by. I'd be really curious your impressions of the my rigs. I think you'll find them interesting. Plus, I'd love to talk 'shop' regarding drivers, designs and your experiences.

Tell you what though, since you are into volume (and lots of it), it might not hurt if we waited until I finshed building the 300b's I'm about to order. Right now I'm running a 2a3. It runs out of gas after about 100-105dB (even actively crossed). On the other hand, my Big Fun System can clean the plaque from your arteries.

PM me with your contact info and we can set something up. I've gotta hear KHorns with Krell

[zako]

Scott..... Its my preamp thats a Krell....KBL/KPA.     The amps are Esotec  30 wt class A.    Western Electric 300b   Were made for the telephone company. Thats where they do best.   The original reason for High effiency speakers is to keep The distortion levels in tube amps at the lowest levels possible.   But when Some of these newbe amp scratch builders place 1 watt and 2 watt  woosey amps to a horn system and claim audio uphonic bliss I just want to PUKE in their face.  If you ever heard  Mahler,s Symphony #6  With the large dynamic swings from almost complete silence to the loudest cresendo in one swoop. That amp will go into a meltdown.   It has nothing to do with who can hear me across the state.   But will that amp & speaker give justice to what Mahler wrote.  And do it with complete clarity.   I used to go in to Music For Pleasure.  They carry the big ass Krell amps and tie them to scrawny Dyna audio speakers. they have never had a good speaker in that store. Ever.  Always some Brit limp wrist speaker.   The only good British speaker Ive ever heard was the Tannoy Westminster Royal.  Or the european Version of the Klipschorn the Vitavox Khorn with the S2 HF driver and 515 woofer.  The Vitavox was made with 3/4 wood stock not the 1/2 ply that the present U.S. Khorn is made of.  You dont need floor spikes for mass coupling with these speakers.   If you want to hear Lowther,s Really speak.  Mount 16 Lowthers per channel in the wall (a sturdy wood wall)   I heard some thing like this at BEATTY STEREO in Kansas City.    But the best system I have ever heard (and ive heard many) was in Chicago. A electroststic speaker system in a large mansion . The electrostatic speakers were 15 feet tall. by 5 feet wide. the woofers were set into concrete baffles 2  24"  Hartleys per side.   Levinson amps & electronic xovers.    Studer tape recorder & master tapes .  London Symphony orchestra.   Beehtoven ,s  9th    The clarity ...most believeable.  You could almost smell the rozen on the violin strings.

[Mike D]

Damb, Zako!  I thought I had a big mouth!!!  Your smack talk is only exceded by your own smack talk!

We have a colorful group but right now, you take the prize for the Captain "Been there, Heard that...  and it SUCKED".

     

I can't wait to meet you.  You seem like a lot of fun.

[Scott F.]

....But when Some of these newbe amp scratch builders place 1 watt and 2 watt  woosey amps to a horn system and claim audio uphonic bliss I just want to PUKE in their face....

Hey, why don't you tell me exactly how you feel

Western Electric 300b Were made for the telephone company. Thats where they do best.

OK, I'll bite. Whats wrong with a 300b? Not enough power? Maybe an 845 or 211 suites your taste more? Or is the single ended thing you don't care for?

If you want to hear Lowther,s Really speak. Mount 16 Lowthers per channel in the wall (a sturdy wood wall) I heard some thing like this at BEATTY STEREO in Kansas City.

Now that would be interesting. Did they roll some sort of sub under them?

The electrostatic speakers were 15 feet tall. by 5 feet wide. the woofers were set into concrete baffles 2 24" Hartleys per side. Levinson amps & electronic xovers. Studer tape recorder & master tapes . London Symphony orchestra. Beehtoven ,s 9th The clarity ...most believeable. You could almost smell the rozen on the violin strings.

Most excellent.

Question, what did you think of your old Paragons? What drivers were you using in them?

[lonewolfny42]

ScottF :

You also need to know, my all time favorite speaker I've heard is the JBL Hartsfield. The one Classic Audio Reproduction makes with the TAD drivers.

[/list:u] A bit of history on the original... http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/hartsfield.htm

[/list:u]Interesting reading !

[zako]

300b tubes are fine ....Single ended is fine.....Good simple circuits...  If you like to wipe out your voicecoils.   Get on the Pro JBL site and read the  technical note ...Danger: Low Power   I believe it was write,n by Dennis Klietch  The dangers of running amps close to clipping The killer distortion.          Yes I,m opinionated . The audio scene in Stl  Has slipped into HERISEY.  And I intend to drag those sinners to the stake.   About the JBL Paragon?    I used the 150-4c woofer , 375 mid driver and 075 tweeter.   The Paragon system is flawed because only the 375 is used splayed across the curved panel.  The tweeter 075 is only good to 15k and drops off sharply. I believe the 2405 slot tweet would be better going to 21.5k.   The woofers  150-4c  or  Le 15 were the only thing JBL had at that time But later the better woofer 2235 with mass ring would have been my choice.

[zako]

Lonewolfny......Glad to see someone get on the Audoheritage site. A wealth of good information.   The Project May project is worth following.  The 1500al woofer ive mentioned on this site is shown.

[Scott F.]

300b tubes are fine ....Single ended is fine.....Good simple circuits...  If you like to wipe out your voicecoils.   Get on the Pro JBL site and read the  technical note ...Danger: Low Power   I believe it was write,n by Dennis Klietch  The dangers of running amps close to clipping The killer distortion.

   

Wasn't it Paul Klipsch himself that said (paraphrasing) "What the world needs is a good 5 watt amp." ?

I understand fully what you are saying about low power pushed to high distortion rates but if you don't drive the amp & speakers hard (high SPLs), you can get a pretty darned good sound from the low powered amps.

..... Yes I,m opinionated . The audio scene in Stl  Has slipped into HERISEY.  And I intend to drag those sinners to the stake. ...

No not complete herisey. Bill (deadfish) runs a pair of Altec 19's, Willie is running essentially the same speakers without the 19 cabinets (811 horn,  (was it the) 816a woofer, etc), Thom (of Flips) is a big horn guy too. I've (personally) been on the prowl for a big pair of horns that I can steal cheap. Haven't found anything ...... yet, but one day I will.

On the other hand, there are many of us heritics in StL committing sins and building shrines to false Audio Gods......but it's sooo much fun.
It's Sodom and Gamorrah all over again!

The Paragon system is flawed because only the 375 is used splayed across the curved panel.

That is a little weird, the placement of the 375.

[zako]

A 5 watt amp would be a good start.  ... 1 watt you could be playing too close to the fire.   Altec 19  is another classic I like.  Too bad Sparkomatic ran Altec into the ground.  .....  The Paragon Is beautiful to look at . Some very slight modification in cabinet design. I guess Im but a few that can detect them. It had a good run. After orders slowed here in the states. JBL kept making them for the Japanese market.   In fact most Of JBL good stuff goes to Japan first. They have models not shown here.   Good quality JBL,s & not the Circuit City Chinese made line.  The Flag ship K2 95000 & now the newer K2 S98000 Went over seas first.    The K2 S98000 was finaly introduced here this year.  But on special order only.  That woofer (1500Al) is like ....Nothing ive seen before  ($ 2000 each)  The complete K2 is $ 30,000 pr.

[Scott F.]

Hiya Lonewolf,

ScottF :A bit of history on the original... http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/hartsfield.htm

[/list:u]Interesting reading !

That's a great site. Don and Steve have done a great job in putting together on heck of a resource for all of us to use.

One of these days I'll finally find a pair of Hartsfields sitting in a fleamarket for like $100, I'm sure of it

[zako]

Ive seen sites showing construction of the Hartsfield (overseas)  Plus detailed plans.   That would be a closer option than finding one at an estate sale or trash heap.  .....The audioheritage site has been a wealth of information for me.   Other speakers in the heritage JBL horn linage. can be restored using the JBL/Altec  reference site.   Background & histery construction information,  No other speaker site comes close to the info ive gleaned from this JBL archive....Highly recommended.....Maron

[zako]

Scott F.......On the audioheritage.org    Click the lansing logo then the lansing library...Go to enclosures. Plans.   There you will find complete plans for the HARTSFIELD.  Download prints and enjoy.

[Scott F.]

Scott F.......On the audioheritage.org    Click the lansing logo then the lansing library...Go to enclosures. Plans.   There you will find complete plans for the HARTSFIELD.  Download prints and enjoy.

Thanks! Some time back I downloaded the plans. I found them up at either the High Eff Speaker forum or over at the full Range Driver Forum. After looking at them, now I know why Jim at Classic Audio charges so much for his speakers.

One of these years I'm defiantely going to tackle them. I have to finish setting up my barn as a my wood shop first though. Should have it converted by late spring..... I hope....

[doug s.]

you want horns?  i'll give you horns!  



but, where are the subs?




eight 18" drivers per side!?!






http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.htm

doug s.