Just switch out my amps to 7b3,looking at middle t

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 2436 times.

turnovertherecord

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 244
  • rain,fog,snow,sun,known to happen on the same day
Looking at black ash middle speakers,,,is there an easy way to tell the difference between black ash in vinyl and veneer



Thanks

 Cabinet not finish yet,,,will be puting angle iron on shelves and it will be done in stone on the outside,,,plans keep changing so open to any ideas you may have

James Tanner

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 20483
  • The Demo is Everything!
    • http://www.bryston.com
Re: Just switch out my amps to 7b3,looking at middle t
« Reply #1 on: 6 Nov 2017, 09:15 pm »
Looking at black ash middle speakers,,,is there an easy way to tell the difference between black ash in vinyl and veneer



Thanks

 Cabinet not finish yet,,,will be puting angle iron on shelves and it will be done in stone on the outside,,,plans keep changing so open to any ideas you may have

Hi

The vinyl has a shine to it and the wood is more satin looking.  We do not make any of the speakers in Vinyl any longer.

james

turnovertherecord

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 244
  • rain,fog,snow,sun,known to happen on the same day
Re: Just switch out my amps to 7b3,looking at middle t
« Reply #2 on: 6 Nov 2017, 09:19 pm »
Great plan

Can i overdrive the middle T`s with the 7b3

Put the blue in the 7b3 to mach the blue in the mac and oppo

very nice

Thankyou Bryston

James Tanner

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 20483
  • The Demo is Everything!
    • http://www.bryston.com
Re: Just switch out my amps to 7b3,looking at middle t
« Reply #3 on: 6 Nov 2017, 11:36 pm »
Great plan

Can i overdrive the middle T`s with the 7b3

Put the blue in the 7b3 to mach the blue in the mac and oppo

very nice

Thankyou Bryston

Hi

No problem with the 7B's and the Middles - I have that setup in one of my rooms at home.

james

TJ-Sully

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 416
Re: Just switch out my amps to 7b3,looking at middle t
« Reply #4 on: 7 Nov 2017, 12:34 am »
Lucky! The 7B3's must sound amazing with the Middles. I'm still running 4B2 with mini's - and love it!
But just switched houses, and my new listening room needs some work. 

Tons of reflective surfaces. No carpet, or drapes yet. Only 15 feet from wall to wall - and the mini's are placed 3 feet from the back wall. So, the speakers are about 11 feet from my ears.   The other dimension in this rectangle room is about about 30 feet in length.

Any recommendations for damping James?

TJ

James Tanner

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 20483
  • The Demo is Everything!
    • http://www.bryston.com
Re: Just switch out my amps to 7b3,looking at middle t
« Reply #5 on: 7 Nov 2017, 12:46 am »
Lucky! The 7B3's must sound amazing with the Middles. I'm still running 4B2 with mini's - and love it!
But just switched houses, and my new listening room needs some work. 

Tons of reflective surfaces. No carpet, or drapes yet. Only 15 feet from wall to wall - and the mini's are placed 3 feet from the back wall. So, the speakers are about 11 feet from my ears.   The other dimension in this rectangle room is about about 30 feet in length.

Any recommendations for damping James?

TJ

Just do not overdue the damping as it starts to sound anechoic.

james

TJ-Sully

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 416
Re: Just switch out my amps to 7b3,looking at middle t
« Reply #6 on: 7 Nov 2017, 01:07 am »
thanks james. i suppose some echo is a good thing - but need to find the sweet spot - and find some damping materials.  a little boomy in here. but just switched out the Mini's for the PMC 22's and it's gotten better! maybe have to give the T's a rest. :icon_lol:

Gary L

Re: Just switch out my amps to 7b3,looking at middle t
« Reply #7 on: 10 Nov 2017, 05:25 am »
TJ, overdue the damping. Better to sound a little anechoic than having to listen to overly bright music.

Sorry James.   :lol:

James Tanner

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 20483
  • The Demo is Everything!
    • http://www.bryston.com
Re: Just switch out my amps to 7b3,looking at middle t
« Reply #8 on: 10 Nov 2017, 11:04 am »
TJ, overdue the damping. Better to sound a little anechoic than having to listen to overly bright music.

Sorry James.   :lol:

Hi Gary,

I have used a lot of room absorptive acoustic control (Tube Traps, Foam products etc.) in my sound rooms over the years and in studios and I use to be a real advocate of this approach. 

But since speakers have been getting better and better at uniform Polar response on and off axis I have changed my mind.  I always felt heavily damped rooms sounded very unnatural to me but lived with it because the image characteristics of the system generally improved. But put me in the dispersion camp now rather than the absorption camp.

Here's a shot of one of my rooms where I had a lot of acoustical treatment.



james


Gary L

Re: Just switch out my amps to 7b3,looking at middle t
« Reply #9 on: 10 Nov 2017, 08:55 pm »
Hi James,

That is a beautiful room. You are right, lots of absorption material there. You must have a really nice home. Love the flooring and carpets.  Come to think of it, reminds me a lot of my downstairs living room.  After buying the Meyer Sound system, I moved my Revels downstairs. Pic to follow. Note the flooring and rug. We think alike.  :D




Gary

Gary L

Re: Just switch out my amps to 7b3,looking at middle t
« Reply #10 on: 10 Nov 2017, 08:56 pm »
Hmmm. Pic upside down. Oh well.

turnovertherecord

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 244
  • rain,fog,snow,sun,known to happen on the same day
Re: Just switch out my amps to 7b3,looking at middle t
« Reply #11 on: 10 Nov 2017, 11:14 pm »
Nice pics


Gary L

Re: Just switch out my amps to 7b3,looking at middle t
« Reply #12 on: 10 Nov 2017, 11:42 pm »
Thank you sir.  I’m too lazy to figure out how to fix my screw ups.   :thumb:

TJ-Sully

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 416
Re: Just switch out my amps to 7b3,looking at middle t
« Reply #13 on: 11 Nov 2017, 05:10 am »
Hi Gary,

I have used a lot of room absorptive acoustic control (Tube Traps, Foam products etc.) in my sound rooms over the years and in studios and I use to be a real advocate of this approach. 

But since speakers have been getting better and better at uniform Polar response on and off axis I have changed my mind.  I always felt heavily damped rooms sounded very unnatural to me but lived with it because the image characteristics of the system generally improved. But put me in the dispersion camp now rather than the absorption camp.

Here's a shot of one of my rooms where I had a lot of acoustical treatment.



james - nice room. those IB2's look awfully nice. dream speaker of mine. someday baby.

Gary - i'm with you man. i just added a rug, some thick drapes, and another couch. the PMC 22's sounds even sweeter. i'll hook up the mini's tomorrow and give the girls another run.  thinking of getting a few panels too.

here's a pic before the additional damping materials.







james

TJ-Sully

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 416
Re: Just switch out my amps to 7b3,looking at middle t
« Reply #14 on: 11 Nov 2017, 05:13 am »
a pic of a custom built stand.....just some staining to do. should have this gem by monday. will post another pic when all set up....cheers. TJ




TJ-Sully

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 416
Re: Just switch out my amps to 7b3,looking at middle t
« Reply #15 on: 11 Nov 2017, 12:51 pm »
hey JT and Gary - got things moving in here on the absorption front. sounds better already!


James Tanner

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 20483
  • The Demo is Everything!
    • http://www.bryston.com
Re: Just switch out my amps to 7b3,looking at middle t
« Reply #16 on: 11 Nov 2017, 12:55 pm »
HI

Ok just remember when you say absorbtion you are not dealing with low frequency information.  You are absorbing through the mids and upper octaves.  This helps with slap echo and reverb  time etc. (which is helpful) but will not do anything at the lower frequencies due to wave lengths involved.

james


James Tanner

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 20483
  • The Demo is Everything!
    • http://www.bryston.com
Re: Just switch out my amps to 7b3,looking at middle t
« Reply #17 on: 11 Nov 2017, 01:02 pm »
Just to give you an idea of the thickness required of the absorbing material to affect low frequencies:

Reflection Time Delay:


First Null Frequency = 1/ (2x TimeDelay)

AbsorberThickness = 1130/ (4 x First Null Frequency)


Example:

2 ms reflection = 0.002 sec reflection

First Null Frequency = 1/  (2 x 0.002)

= 250 Hz, then each 500 Hz above, starting at  750, 1150, etc...



Absorber Thickness:

For 250 Hz absorption,

1130 / (4 x250)
 
= 1.13 ft thick.

So you need a 1.13 foot thick piece of material (foam) to even absorb 250Hz – imagine the size for 60Hz. !!!

Blueshound

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 22
Re: Just switch out my amps to 7b3,looking at middle t
« Reply #18 on: 11 Nov 2017, 04:06 pm »
Hi;

I'm an industry guy who's had the privilege of serving as the lead designer & project co-ordinator for quite a few private theaters / listening rooms.  I like music, so almost every room I've ever been involved with on works for 2-channel listening as well as with movies (you might be shocked to know how many "professionally done" home theaters can't produce a decent 2-channel stereo image). While we all have our biases based on personal preference and different experiences, I absolutely agree with James that over-damping can be a negative.  As he's said, this is largely because real-world damping is typically very efficient at high frequencies, with effective absorption declining as frequency falls. So it's easy to wind up killing high frequencies disproportionately with mids. Subjectively, and in my opinion, peaks in the upper mids do more to make a system sound artificially bright and harsh-sounding than some moderate lift in the extended highs. (This is why almost every element in the signal chain for electric guitars is almost always designed to "peak" the upper mids - so that the guitar sound can "cut through" the other midrange voices & instruments on stage or in a mix.)

When we design theaters, even with all wall surfaces covered with fabric for a harmonious appearance, there are different materials behind the fabric, according to location. These would typically include absorption, reflection, diffusion or diffraction. Absorption and reflection are the most important ones.

Most of us, who love music and the gear that makes it sound good, start with existing rooms that need some modification to be better for listening. We don't usually have the option of a large undeveloped space that can be designed from scratch, with sufficient size and volume to permit extra-depth walls or room-within-room construction to improve wide-band frequency response within the shell. So what works best is to nullify the worst of the problems, and in the process, not to create new ones (over-damping of highs can result in both dull AND boomy - not good).

Some damping of high frequencies and down through the upper mids almost always improves how you perceive imaging. Generally speaking, if you want to tighten up and make that aural perception of an instrument or vocalist at a specific point in space more believable, you have to reduce the destructive effects of the early reflections, slap echo, etc. from nearby surfaces. The closer the room boundaries, the greater the benefit of some absorption. 

To the OP, from your pics, you already benefit a little bit from the drop ceiling and ceiling panels (not much, but if you feel you want to experiment, you can buy panel replacements that are rated for sound absorption). It also looks like you're listening across the short dimension of the room?  This has the benefit of leaving lots of space from the speakers to the side walls, so that the reflections have a longer propagation time back to the listener compared to the main sound; if this time is long enough, the reflections detract less from the primary sound.

I appreciate that there are always conflicts with appearance preferences, but if you were to consider a much larger area rug, or even wall to wall carpet, that would also help.

An easy way to find the most destructive locations of early reflections is just to sit in your usual listening position and have someone move a mirror along the side walls so that you can see the mirror.  The spots where you can see the speakers in the mirror are the first locations to treat.

Is the sofa against the rear wall?  Or is there some distance between the primary listening position and the rear wall? Unless there is a substantial distance, you might also consider something on the rear wall, behind your listening seat. You have a number of options for this, from purpose-built panel(s) to a decorative rug hung as a tapestry.

I'm with James when it comes to bass traps, they're not always what they're cracked up to be.  The main problem is that they can result in an unbalanced end result - you absorb in specific physical locations in the room, corners for example, but you're absorbing so selectively that the net improvement may not be what you hoped for.

But I'm definitely in the camp of favoring some absorption, and it can be one of the cheapest and most effective improvements you can make to your listening experience. Just don't overdo it.

Hope this helps.

Brian


James Tanner

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 20483
  • The Demo is Everything!
    • http://www.bryston.com
Re: Just switch out my amps to 7b3,looking at middle t
« Reply #19 on: 11 Nov 2017, 05:10 pm »
Really informative Brian - much appreciated. :thumb:

james