Has Digital surpassed CD sound yet?

Early B. · « **on:** 10 Oct 2017, 08:05 pm »

Generally, has digital surpassed CD sound quality within the same budget?

I'm not asking to start a flame war or anything. I'll admit that I'm an ancient relic and I've simply been out of the loop for a while. A few years ago, many audiophiles argued that a digital setup wasn't necessarily an improvement in sound, but the main value was convenience. And in those days, it cost a lot more to do digital right. I just want to know where we stand today with regard to establishing a digital system that does four things:

1. exceeds CD sound quality
2. cost is comparable or lower than a traditional, high quality CDP or Transport/DAC setup
3. doesn't require spending money to download hi-rez tracks in order to get better sound
4. doesn't require a freakin' computer science degree! (let's just keep it simple)

Thanks.

Tyson · « **Reply #1 on:** 10 Oct 2017, 08:10 pm »

Do you mean streaming digital files from a computer (music server) vs a high end CD player? If so, then yes, digital files and servers and DACs surpassed spinning discs quite a while ago.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #2 on:** 10 Oct 2017, 09:06 pm »

Tyson +1.
I stopped spinning the silver discs going on 7 years ago. With 24/96 downloads from native 24/96, 24/176 or 24/192 digital recordings, the source itself is inherently better than a 16/44.1 CD source. In my case I found that files ripped to 16/44.1 WAV and played back via a PC was better than CD.
At this point I use a HAL MS-2 PC Music Server running WIN 10 Creator using jRiver to kernel stream all sample rates up to 24/192 as well as DSD 128 and 256 to an Auralic Vega.
Obviously YMMV, but computer playback works for me.
Scotty

Early B. · « **Reply #3 on:** 10 Oct 2017, 11:52 pm »

OK, thanks for your responses. That's very helpful. I'm listening.

Now let's talk about cost because that's a huge factor for me and probably for many others.

Let's say that I can buy a used, high quality CDP or transport for $1,500. With that budget, can I buy a comparable or better sounding music server? What other hardware would I need, i.e., an upgraded power supply, a USB interface, etc.???

Mag · « **Reply #4 on:** 11 Oct 2017, 12:07 am »

I have to disagree. With a well recorded redbook cd with my new redbook cd player. It surpasses what I have heard from a top end digital player and dac. I wouldn't say the difference is huge just slightly more transparent.

Having heard HiRez recordings I am not convinced it is better than a well recorded redbook cd. By redbook cd I mean 44.1/16 bit which could be used as a digital wav file on digital player or transferred to cd-r and played on comparably priced hi-end cd player.

DaveC113 · « **Reply #5 on:** 11 Oct 2017, 01:06 am »

I'm not sure it's going to work out to make generalizations, but assuming all else is equal high rez files can definitely sound better and DSD better vs high rez PCM imo.

So everyone is right, it just depends on the particular gear in question. But it is not easy to beat a very good cdp or transport/dac, it wouldn't be cheap and an average computer w/USB into a DAC isn't going to come close.

WGH · « **Reply #6 on:** 11 Oct 2017, 01:31 am »

Even if a $1500 high quality CDP or transport can beat computer based player, if you use it a lot the transport will crap out in a couple of years and you are left with an unrepairable $1500 door stop.
I would never buy a used transport, no matter what the seller says there is a reason they are selling. As an example the Sony DVD player in my shop plays regular CD's but the CD's I made at home from .wav files no longer play and they used to play just fine.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #7 on:** 11 Oct 2017, 01:47 am »

Early B., I believe that the HAL MS3 PC Music Server is still $799.00. It looks like all you may need is a USB cable and you are good to go. According to the GD Audio website your DAC has a USB input.
You can PM HAL for more information about the MS-3.
I think WIN Creator 10 is probably a game changer for a Windows based system, as this is the first time Windows has ever supported 24/192 playback with a OS level driver. This allows you to bypass factory ASIO drivers for all playback applications 24/192 and lower. I have also been able playback DSD 128 and DSD 256 DSD-DSF files with jRiver 22 using 24 bit integer setting.
At the end of the day, when all is said and done, you are listening to software when you listen to music using a PC as a source. The better the software is, the the better the music sounds. It appears that a factory supplied ASIO driver may not be the best possible alternative to an OS level driver doing the same job. Does the factory ASIO driver sound better than the OS level driver. In every instance this is a comparison that needs to be made and a question that needs to be answered.
The player software chosen also has an audible impact on the music and is avenue to potential future improvements in sound quality. Without spending a lot of money.
Scotty

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #8 on:** 11 Oct 2017, 02:14 am »

Quote from: WGH on 11 Oct 2017, 01:31 am

Even if a $1500 high quality CDP or transport can beat computer based player, if you use it a lot the transport will crap out in a couple of years and you are left with an unrepairable $1500 door stop.
I would never buy a used transport...

I just use a cheap CDP with coax out as a transport, works fine. No need to go "high end" if you merely need to spin a disc for an external DAC.

witchdoctor · « **Reply #9 on:** 11 Oct 2017, 02:35 am »

Yes digital has surpassed CD, check this article: MQA is the best, the DXD master is 2, and CD is at the bottom:

https://www.audiostream.com/content/supplementary-listeners%E2%80%99-notes-2l-test-bench

The moral of the story is get the new iFi MQA Black Label DAC when it becomes available.

Yo can always use your CDP as a transport.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #10 on:** 11 Oct 2017, 02:57 am »

The potential downsides of MQA are available in James Tanners posts in this now binned thread.
First post in thread http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=151245.0
and Post #93 http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=151245.80
Scotty

witchdoctor · « **Reply #11 on:** 11 Oct 2017, 03:20 am »

James Tanner has stated he is still evaluating MQA, the Guys at 2L own a studio, create their own masters, make it available in every format, and published this study. I recreated the study in my own system at home by downloading the free tracks available on their test bench. I suggest anyone interested do the same, it's free and takes about 30 minutes.

Rusty Jefferson · « **Reply #12 on:** 11 Oct 2017, 04:36 am »

There's no question a server is more convenient. There is potential for a server to perform better than a cd player, but it's not a given and system specific. It can be a lot of work, and frustrating as well if you're not comfortable with computers. Some of the network players will allow you to stream Tidal if you wish (Sonore Rendu, SOTM network players) as well as playing your files.

Perhaps the easiest to implement are DACs with network connectivity like the the PS Audio Directstream Jr. They're plug and play. No software hassle. The Jr. has a network bridge (player) built in. MSRP is $4k, but they can be had for about half that. You'll still need music stored somewhere on your network, either a PC or a NAS. There may be other brands I'm not familiar with that are less expensive.

WGH · « **Reply #13 on:** 11 Oct 2017, 05:04 am »

A Salk Sound StreamPlayer mini is only $1195, it's as close to plug and play as you will get. Salk has two more StreamPlayer models with even more options.
http://www.salksound.com/streamplayer.php?model=StreamPlayer+Mini

Early B. · « **Reply #14 on:** 11 Oct 2017, 01:45 pm »

Quote from: Rusty Jefferson on 11 Oct 2017, 04:36 am

There's no question a server is more convenient. There is potential for a server to perform better than a cd player, but it's not a given and system specific. It can be a lot of work, and frustrating as well if you're not comfortable with computers. Some of the network players will allow you to stream Tidal if you wish (Sonore Rendu, SOTM network players) as well as playing your files.

I really appreciate the great responses, guys. Yeah, I'd definitely be more interested in a plug & play option. Also, the majority of the music I listen to isn't available in a hi-rez digital format, so I'd be copying CDs. May not be worth the trouble. I dunno.

The technical stuff that Scotty is talking about may be simple for some people, but I just want to hear music, not fiddle around with software and settings and such.

Quote from: *Scotty* on 11 Oct 2017, 01:47 am

I think WIN Creator 10 is probably a game changer for a Windows based system, as this is the first time Windows has ever supported 24/192 playback with a OS level driver. This allows you to bypass factory ASIO drivers for all playback applications 24/192 and lower. I have also been able playback DSD 128 and DSD 256 DSD-DSF files with jRiver 22 using 24 bit integer setting.
At the end of the day, when all is said and done, you are listening to software when you listen to music using a PC as a source. The better the software is, the the better the music sounds. It appears that a factory supplied ASIO driver may not be the best possible alternative to an OS level driver doing the same job. Does the factory ASIO driver sound better than the OS level driver. In every instance this is a comparison that needs to be made and a question that needs to be answered.
The player software chosen also has an audible impact on the music and is avenue to potential future improvements in sound quality. Without spending a lot of money.
Scotty

DaveC113 · « **Reply #15 on:** 11 Oct 2017, 02:39 pm »

Quote from: Early B. on 11 Oct 2017, 01:45 pm

I really appreciate the great responses, guys. Yeah, I'd definitely be more interested in a plug & play option. Also, the majority of the music I listen to isn't available in a hi-rez digital format, so I'd be copying CDs. May not be worth the trouble. I dunno.

The technical stuff that Scotty is talking about may be simple for some people, but I just want to hear music, not fiddle around with software and settings and such.

That's why I bought a Sony HAP-Z1ES. I'll use that while the server/streamer/ethernet/power supply/etc/etc/etc nonsense gets a little more mature. You won't beat it without spending a lot more, I thought it was just as good as an Auralic Vega, better in some aspects (more accurate and neutral), and is a total self-contained unit.

However, these days there are getting to be better options mostly because of Roon software. If I remember right ELAC has a nice Roon based music server, if I was to go away from the HAP it would certainly involve using the Roon software... but it'll still cost more than the HAP.

witchdoctor · « **Reply #16 on:** 11 Oct 2017, 02:59 pm »

For me the process of ripping and storing CD's just got to be annoying. I had a PC based system but hated having to deal with it. Look at ALL the after market doo dads for same from USB devices, SOTA cables, FEMTO cards, and on and on. Any device that needs this much tweaking is inherently weak. I bought a SONY UHPH1 univeral player that has a USB port. I can plug a thumb drive/usb drive into it and have instant access to content, video or music files.It has a ton of apps for streaming. will play every format under the planet, disc or file based. I love the Sony HSEE DX which attempts to make standard files sound closer to hi rez. One box that sounds great, plays everything, and was around $300. Blows my computer front end away. The player they replaced it with for 2017 does native 4K but lost the RCA outs. This player is focused more on audio and upscales to 4K but does not play 4K discs.

https://www.whathifi.com/sony/uhp-h1/review

witchdoctor · « **Reply #17 on:** 11 Oct 2017, 02:59 pm »

kingdeezie · « **Reply #18 on:** 11 Oct 2017, 03:26 pm »

Personally, I think using Roon with Tidal is pretty much end game for me right now. I take USB out of my PC, into a Mutec, and out to my DAC. Sounds good, is easy to use, and I can control it headless from my phone.

I too got tired of ripping my CDS, so I just stopped. Tidal is good enough for now.

witchdoctor · « **Reply #19 on:** 11 Oct 2017, 03:28 pm »

Quote from: kingdeezie on 11 Oct 2017, 03:26 pm

Personally, I think using Roon with Tidal is pretty much end game for me right now. I take USB out of my PC, into a Mutec, and out to my DAC. Sounds good, is easy to use, and I can control it headless from my phone.

I too got tired of ripping my CDS, so I just stopped. Tidal is good enough for now.

+1