[JLM]

More amusing...


https://www.stereophile.com/content/larsen-hifi-8-loudspeaker-manufacturers-comment

Only amusing if you believe current science has all the answers and one listens through an oscilloscope.  True science always questions and never teaches by rote. 

[GT Audio Works]

Only amusing if you believe current science has all the answers and one listens through an oscilloscope.  True science always questions and never teaches by rote.

Well said JLM.

Ever wonder why 2 well measuring speakers can sound so different ?
Measuring tools are crude tools designed to get you to the church parking lot but not thru the front door and certainly not not to the pew.
Consider the same speaker measured twice each time driven by a different amp, one tube one solid state.
The 2 amps frequency response within audibility is most likely within a percent of a db, and accounting for the amp/speaker impedance interaction, the frequency plot of the measured speaker would be very close regardless of the driving amp.
The tools cant hear any difference..our ears can easily hear a difference.

The human ear/brain in a complicated interface that has evolved to allow us to interpret slight changes in phase direction and intensity. Recognizing the direction and intensity of the sound of a foot cracking a twig in the forest could well mean the difference between life and death for early humans.
These tools we invent are more sensitive and accurate than the human ear for sure, but dumb none the less, they have no ability to interpret the information in a meaningful way in regards to our perception of the sound.
I have no doubt the future will hold great advances in the interpretation of meaningful data as it relates to how we experience sound, but for now I will trust my ears over a tool any day of the week.
Greg

[jtwrace]

Only amusing if you believe current science has all the answers and one listens through an oscilloscope.  True science always questions and never teaches by rote.

Good thing speaker measurements aren't done with an oscilloscope.   

[jtwrace]

Well said JLM.

Ever wonder why 2 well measuring speakers can sound so different ?
Measuring tools are crude tools designed to get you to the church parking lot but not thru the front door and certainly not not to the pew.
Consider the same speaker measured twice each time driven by a different amp, one tube one solid state.
The 2 amps frequency response within audibility is most likely within a percent of a db, and accounting for the amp/speaker impedance interaction, the frequency plot of the measured speaker would be very close regardless of the driving amp.
The tools cant hear any difference..our ears can easily hear a difference.

The human ear/brain in a complicated interface that has evolved to allow us to interpret slight changes in phase direction and intensity. Recognizing the direction and intensity of the sound of a foot cracking a twig in the forest could well mean the difference between life and death for early humans.
These tools we invent are more sensitive and accurate than the human ear for sure, but dumb none the less, they have no ability to interpret the information in a meaningful way in regards to our perception of the sound.
I have no doubt the future will hold great advances in the interpretation of meaningful data as it relates to how we experience sound, but for now I will trust my ears over a tool any day of the week.
Greg

The science for speaker measurements is clear.  You might want to learn about it as a speaker "designer". 

[fredgarvin]

The science for speaker measurements is clear.  You might want to learn about it as a speaker "designer".

I think that globe on your shoulders is cooling, Mr. "Science".

[GT Audio Works]

The science for speaker measurements is clear.  You might want to learn about it as a speaker "designer".

OUCH !!
I guess I am supposed to be offended by such a statement.
Sorry to inform you I am not.
I am very proud of what I have accomplished in driver design, and I am proud of how I have gotten there, by countless hours of building drivers and exploring alternative methods, and attempting to understand how and why they do what they do. And not just reading books written by others who say this is how it must be done and feeling satisfied when I reach the same conclusions they have reached. 

Too bad your not closer to Long Island NY...In the event you do come up this way or come to CAF 2017 be sure to look me up.
I would be glad to give you a lesson in speaker designing by ear first and measurement second.
But then again considering your stubbornness to accept something different, it would probably fall on deaf ears.
Sleep well, I am sure your system measures perfectly !!

Greg

[restrav]

The science for speaker measurements is clear.  You might want to learn about it as a speaker "designer". 

You are obviously correct and many measurement devices and equipment nowadays work down to atomic level and for someone to say their ears are more dependable that measurement is just pathetic. The parameters for a speaker's performance could, and have, been defined and of course different people could, and have, set different criteria for what is ideal performance; which as long as they are well defined and communicated, is not a problem at all.

the pooint is that the criteria for how a peaker should preform has no direct correlation with our enjoyment. It obviously happens all the time that i prefer a peaker with a measured output that is way too non linear to be labled a good reproducer of all frequencies betwenn 20 to 20khz. So these people need to say that they prefer to design and buy what sounds sweeter to their ears rather than my ears are better the measurement equipment.

[GT Audio Works]

You are obviously correct and many measurement devices and equipment nowadays work down to atomic level and for someone to say their ears are more dependable that measurement is just pathetic.

Pathetic ?
Wow...now I know why I dont post very much on these forums and when I do I mostly post about benign topics.
Is it too difficult for certain types on these forums to refrain from personal attacks ?
I suppose debating different points of view with maturity and congeniality are alien concepts to some.
Greg

[dB Cooper]

This (good) thread seems to be getting off on the exit to the Intergalactic Wastebin; perhaps we can still pull back onto the main road.

To those who accuse Greg (or any other designer) of, essentially, not knowing what they're doing, I would ask: Where's your speaker design? In speakers transducers more than any other audio component, measurements tell a story- just not the whole story. Making the judgements about the missing pieces are where the 'art' lives. There are compromises that have to be made, and different judgments about what those compromises should be- which is why one speaker ends up as a planar, one as a horn, etc etc. I have heard recordings of Casals and Yo-Yo Ma playing the same pieces. They sound and feel different, even though they're playing the same notes. It's much the same with speakers- I've heard Greg's planars, they sound very good; I've heard the Larsen's, they sound very good, but they don't sound 'the same'.

If the OP needs speakers that can be placed close to the wall, planars are probably not optimal- as Greg and other planar purveyors would probably be the first to admit. The Larsens, whose design springs from some of the same design goals as the Allison speakers of yore, would probably be a good choice, but did the OP mention a budget at any point?

[restrav]

Pathetic ?
Wow...now I know why I dont post very much on these forums and when I do I mostly post about benign topics.
Is it too difficult for certain types on these forums to refrain from personal attacks ?
I suppose debating different points of view with maturity and congeniality are alien concepts to some.
Greg

well i apologize. i actually am not familiar with you or your work, i meant in general with regards to people who reject the science. didnt mean to make it a personal attack. i am sure you do fine work.

[dB Cooper]

He didn't 'reject science' (the way I read his posts, anyway). It's been a truism since the dawn of hi-fi that it's possible to design a speaker that measures flat- and sounds terrible. Maggies don't 'measure' particularly well, but the've had a devoted following for 40+ years.

So what was the topic here, anyway...?

[GT Audio Works]

He didn't 'reject science' (the way I read his posts, anyway). It's been a truism since the dawn of hi-fi that it's possible to design a speaker that measures flat- and sounds terrible. Maggies don't 'measure' particularly well, but the've had a devoted following for 40+ years.

So what was the topic here, anyway...?

Yes db, we have strayed off topic...passionate bunch for sure.
Good thing, keeps the hobby alive.
I agree many colors of sound out there can find a home for many different tastes.
Maggie got me early on, I owned  MG3a and 2.5R, because of them I started building my own.
I gave the Maggies to my dad, they gave him years of enjoyment.

Greg

[dB Cooper]

I guess, on the 'measurements'/objective-vs-subjective thing, I would say that making a speaker 'good' is a science, making a speaker 'great' is an art.

Dunno if that helps the OP (if he's even still here) or not. Probably not. Think I'd get a decent 3.1 setup if I were him and leave it at that.

[jtwrace]

OUCH !!
I guess I am supposed to be offended by such a statement.

Greg

Not at all since it wasn't an insult.  You are obviously allowed to do what you want.  I'm just stating a fact that there is a direct correlation to sound regardless of what you or anyone else says. Dr. Floyd Toole, Dr. Earl Geddes, Dr. Sean Olive and the list goes on to those who have written numerous papers on this.  Further, these companies have an incredible amount of resource that you truly can't even fathom unless you have seen it in person like I have made the investment to do so.  Harman has invested more money in the subjective/objective world that would blow minds if you could see it.  I suggest you explore beyond what you think you know. 

[GT Audio Works]

I suggest you explore beyond what you think you know.

I make a habit of it, as I hope you do.

[Letitroll98]

Thanks for everyone making nice, shows great maturity, I'm proud of you guys.

I don't let the hammer tell me what wood to buy, and I wouldn't ever let measurements decide what speaker I should buy.  However both are very useful and necessary tools to complete the task.

[GT Audio Works]

Thanks for everyone making nice, shows great maturity, I'm proud of you guys.

I don't let the hammer tell me what wood to buy, and I wouldn't ever let measurements decide what speaker I should buy.  However both are very useful and necessary tools to complete the task.

That's deep !!!

[rollo]

   GTAudio makes a good speaker. For me it is the end result of the product. If the designer uses science or not means nothing to me. What means everything to me is ? How does it sound. Period end of story. That goes for any audio product.
  We are not designing race cars which require critical structural design and oodles of math formulas. In speaker design after the basic math it is listening to such and improving the sound. No worrying about if the wheels are gonna fly off.


charles

[md92468]

Wow, who knew simply suggesting someone should check out a speaker would cause in such a sh*tstorm. Yikes.

FWIW, I loved the way the Larsen sounded when I heard them demoed, and if placement was an issue for me I could easily live with them. As for how they test, I don't care if they measure 6 on the Richter Scale or 9 with the Russian judge, as long as they deliver music in a way I enjoy, I'm happy. 

[Brettio]

As for how they test, I don't care if they measure 6 on the Richter Scale or 9 with the Russian judge, as long as they deliver music in a way I enjoy, I'm happy.

Couldn't say it more tactfully.