[marksas]

Ok question about the capability of amps and what they can do to bring out more detail from the either the source material or speakers.  I recently had to make a change in speakers (WAF) and although i like them, they are definitely less ' forward' and are more say smoother and laid back than my previous ones.  They are also far less sensitive at 85 db versus 96 db previously, and are 6 ohm vs 8 previously.   I noticed last night in a listening session that I was missing some details in the music that i could hear before that i know are there.  Certain parts were more in the background than before, almost not discernible.

At the moment i'm using Emotiva's new BasX line of amp and preamp, the PT-100 pre and A-300 amp.  The A-300 is rated at 150w x ch @ 8ohms.  The speakers are Sonus Faber Venere 1.5 (on factory stands). 

So, the new speakers are here to stay (as per wife) so i'm wondering if the synergy i had before is not quite as good now or at least could be better with an amp than might be considered to be on the bright side and or more detailed? than the Emotiva?  The system as a whole sounds really nice, but I feel it could be a bit more detailed.  I should note that if were to consider a new or used amp (or integrated) than it would need to be $1k or less. 

Thanks

[Armaegis]

That's a huge drop in sensitivity. An amp will make some small differences, but not even remotely enough to adjust for the entirely new speakers.

What were your old speakers?
Do you have the option to apply EQ or room corrections somehow?

[dburna]

While it is possible that another amp might add more detail (potential downside: might sound sharp/etched if it leans too far in this direction), the most likely culprit is the sensitivity difference in the speakers.  It's possible the SF speakers mask a little information by emphasizing a smooth versus detailed presentation, but sensitivity is probably more the reason.  I own 96 dB, 8 ohm speakers, and it wasn't until I moved to high sensitivity speakers that I heard greater nuance/micro-dynamics present in the music. 

The analogy with low sensitivity speakers is like trying to "move an ocean liner" -- it's just more difficult to move/stop speaker cones when they are heavy and/or less efficient.  You can try adding an amp with more power and higher current reserves, but it is still a difficult task, even with more power on-hand.  That's why in my search (a separate post) I have focused on the small set of high sensitivity speakers.  I would miss the vocal nuances of Billie Holiday and Sarah Vaughan without staying high sensitivity.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.  On the plus side, SF speakers generally sound lovely and musical, so there are some benefits to this change.

-dB

[marksas]

That's a huge drop in sensitivity. An amp will make some small differences, but not even remotely enough to adjust for the entirely new speakers.

What were your old speakers?
Do you have the option to apply EQ or room corrections somehow?

Yes and no.  These are hooked into two separate systems, a 5.1 and 2.0/2.1.  On the 5.1 they are powered by a Yamaha AVR so yes I can run the room correction, but this really only applies to movies and TV. 
For music I use the Emotiva separates.  The preamp does have some minor trim adjustment to bass & treble which currently I'm bumping up the treble a tad.
Another option is the DSP settings in Roon, my streaming software, but I haven't experimented enough yet with the parametric EQ. 

Edit:  Forgot to add...my previous speakers were Tekton Lore Reference, a total 180 from the SF's !

[marksas]

While it is possible that another amp might add more detail (potential downside: might sound sharp/etched if it leans too far in this direction), the most likely culprit is the sensitivity difference in the speakers.  It's possible the SF speakers mask a little information by emphasizing a smooth versus detailed presentation, but sensitivity is probably more the reason.  I own 96 dB, 8 ohm speakers, and it wasn't until I moved to high sensitivity speakers that I heard greater nuance/micro-dynamics present in the music. 

The analogy with low sensitivity speakers is like trying to "move an ocean liner" -- it's just more difficult to move/stop speaker cones when they are heavy and/or less efficient.  You can try adding an amp with more power and higher current reserves, but it is still a difficult task, even with more power on-hand.  That's why in my search (a separate post) I have focused on the small set of high sensitivity speakers.  I would miss the vocal nuances of Billie Holiday and Sarah Vaughan without staying high sensitivity.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.  On the plus side, SF speakers generally sound lovely and musical, so there are some benefits to this change.
-dB

Hey it's not really bad news, at the end of the day they are still nice little speakers and I shouldn't complain, my ears need to adjust to them i think.  I also want to make sure that I'm getting the most out of them as they are here to stay for a while.  I realize I've become accustomed to higher sensitivity speakers which these clearly are not but the wife saw them and said, I won't those in our living room, so here they are...they are beautiful though i have to admit and fit our decor perfectly, particularly after looking at big black rectangular boxes with no grills and pro drivers mounted on the baffles lol (Tekton lore reference). 

Anyways back to the amps....I don't think power is the issue with the Emotiva at 150w x ch, I think that amp maybe leans more towards the warm side of the spectrum, I noticed this on the Tektons after replacing my old Peachtree Nova integrated with the Emotiva A-300.    One amp that I was looking at before picking up the Emotiva separates was the older Krell KAV-300i, I have a friend that has had one for many years powering his ProAc towers, really nice combo.  That reminds me, I should ask him to borrow it! 

[Elizabeth]

Things which can increase detail:
Speakers breaking in.. this can take six months unless you just leave them running all day every day. As for breaking in the speakers. just play something loud for a few hours. Orchestral music... Symphonies.. full blast. Your favorite Rock.. See if the details improve. (unless you STAYED in the room, then your ears will also need some time to heal LOL)

Power cord.. Even a 'cheap(er) one Shunyata, Pangea come to mind. possible may help, possible no difference.
Power conditioner. This is a slippery one. Cheap ones don't 'do' much.

better IC from pre to amp, better speaker wires..

Also, do you leave the amp on? Try leaving the amp and preamp on overnight, then listen for the details. This may even be the caps in the crossover.. So leaving something on repeat overnight, at very low levels, a whisper with your ear at the speaker, just so power is going through those crossover capacitors and the wiring all through the speakers..

[marksas]

Things which can increase detail:
Speakers breaking in.. this can take six months unless you just leave them running all day every day. As for breaking in the speakers. just play something loud for a few hours. Orchestral music... Symphonies.. full blast. Your favorite Rock.. See if the details improve. (unless you STAYED in the room, then your ears will also need some time to heal LOL)

Power cord.. Even a 'cheap(er) one Shunyata, Pangea come to mind. possible may help, possible no difference.
Power conditioner. This is a slippery one. Cheap ones don't 'do' much.

better IC from pre to amp, better speaker wires..

Also, do you leave the amp on? Try leaving the amp and preamp on overnight, then listen for the details. This may even be the caps in the crossover.. So leaving something on repeat overnight, at very low levels, a whisper with your ear at the speaker, just so power is going through those crossover capacitors and the wiring all through the speakers..

Good tips thank you.  I've got things figured out and invested on the power side and cables, and actually just recently upgraded both power cables on the amps to Pangea.  I think you are right though about the amp warming up or all of the gear for that matter.   I noticed that i enjoyed the sound more after a good hour of listening last night, seemed to be a big difference than the first 15 minutes.  I think one thing for me to try also is playing a piece that i'm familiar with at but at higher volume and seeing if the 'detail' i thought might be missing or more recessed is now more prominent or noticeable. 

[dburna]

I think one thing for me to try also is playing a piece that i'm familiar with at but at higher volume and seeing if the 'detail' i thought might be missing or more recessed is now more prominent or noticeable.

Some of that detail will come back at higher volumes.  That tends to happen with lower efficiency speakers -- they need to be played louder to sound their best.  Put another way, lower efficiency speakers don't "wake up" at low volumes.  The nuances of micro-dynamics will likely not improve dramatically, because that is a function of efficiency.  But in general, yes, some of the 'goodness' will return when you crank it a bit.  Only drawback there is if you have volume restrictions (folks doing something else in another room, unable to crank because of neighbors, spouse/kids sleeping at night which curtails late-night listening volumes, etc.).

-dB

[Elizabeth]

I find it well worth the $15 a month in increased electric bills to leave everything on 24/7/365.

The first hour of listening every time as less than stellar is just not worth the few bucks on my electric bill just leaving them on costs.

One part of my equipment I leave off is an Audio Research SP-15 preamp I keep around to use only for it's three tube phono section.
Since I only use that maybe once a month for a day, I leave it off. And put up with the hour it takes to sound magical. Same thing for my Sony SCD777ES. I want to make it last 20 years.. So I use it sparingly maybe twice a month for a few hours.

So I leave on two power conditioners, the amp, preamp, a second tubed preamp I use as a 'glorified tube buffer' for my DAC, the DAC, a Behringer DEQ2496. a solid state phono box.
And a CD changer.  these things have been left on nearly all of the last seven years..

Yeah it adds to the heat content in Summer, and so adds to the electric for air conditioning.. But it is worth the cost.

So I suggest trying leaving the amp preamp on all night and think over if it is worth it to you.
I find stuff takes about an hour to sound better, but it really does get even better after a few hours more.
Even part time. Like if you know you will listen the next day on a weekend, leave it on. Just shutting it down when you know you can't use it for a few days.

[marksas]

I find it well worth the $15 a month in increased electric bills to leave everything on 24/7/365.

The first hour of listening every time as less than stellar is just not worth the few bucks on my electric bill just leaving them on costs.

One part of my equipment I leave off is an Audio Research SP-15 preamp I keep around to use only for it's three tube phono section.
Since I only use that maybe once a month for a day, I leave it off. And put up with the hour it takes to sound magical. Same thing for my Sony SCD777ES. I want to make it last 20 years.. So I use it sparingly maybe twice a month for a few hours.

So I leave on two power conditioners, the amp, preamp, a second tubed preamp I use as a 'glorified tube buffer' for my DAC, the DAC, a Behringer DEQ2496. a solid state phono box.
And a CD changer.  these things have been left on nearly all of the last seven years..

Yeah it adds to the heat content in Summer, and so adds to the electric for air conditioning.. But it is worth the cost.

So I suggest trying leaving the amp preamp on all night and think over if it is worth it to you.
I find stuff takes about an hour to sound better, but it really does get even better after a few hours more.
Even part time. Like if you know you will listen the next day on a weekend, leave it on. Just shutting it down when you know you can't use it for a few days.

I think I'll try this out for sure. 

[JLM]

Yes, my experience is that high efficiency speakers tend to provide a more forward/detailed/dynamic presentation.  OTOH lower efficiency speakers tend to be more musical/less fatiguing. 

So how do these two speakers match up to your audio tastes?


I'll ask the elephant in the room question:  How did it come about that your wife chose your speakers for you?

[marksas]

Yes, my experience is that high efficiency speakers tend to provide a more forward/detailed/dynamic presentation.  OTOH lower efficiency speakers tend to be more musical/less fatiguing. 

So how do these two speakers match up to your audio tastes?


I'll ask the elephant in the room question:  How did it come about that your wife chose your speakers for you?

....definitely less fatiguing.  I think that I prefer a bit more forward presentation, however these SF's do have a very pleasing sound that I'm sure I'll warm up to.  They sound better the more I listen to them.  I just feel like the perfect amp would be one that is perhaps more 'clinical'

Haha, my wife didn't 'choose' the speakers for me, I actually chose them knowing that she would love the looks.  I had shown her some pics recently and she really liked them.  Actually I was eyeing these before I picked up my Tektons and it's ironic that they are are here in my room now.  I decided to make a trip to the local Magnolia AV and saw that these were heavily discounted, then the salesman told me that they were even less than the sale price, I couldn't resist paying less than half for speakers and stands so I brought them home, of course she thought they looked great in the room. 

[charmerci]

I looked up these speakers to see what they looked like. You can buy them at Sears!!!! 

[marksas]

I looked up these speakers to see what they looked like. You can buy them at Sears!!!! 

Umm, no you can't.  Yes Sears shows them on their online site, but they are sold by 'HiDefLifestyle.com' who is an authorized Sonus Faber dealer.  'Sears.com' shows just about anything under the sun for sale now because they've nearly bankrupt. 

[charmerci]

Umm, no you can't.  'Sears.com' shows just about anything under the sun for sale now because they've nearly bankrupt.

Thx. Consider me informed.

[marksas]

Thx. Consider me informed.

no prob

[JakeJ]

I find it well worth the $15 a month in increased electric bills to leave everything on 24/7/365.

The first hour of listening every time as less than stellar is just not worth the few bucks on my electric bill just leaving them on costs.

One part of my equipment I leave off is an Audio Research SP-15 preamp I keep around to use only for it's three tube phono section.
Since I only use that maybe once a month for a day, I leave it off. And put up with the hour it takes to sound magical. Same thing for my Sony SCD777ES. I want to make it last 20 years.. So I use it sparingly maybe twice a month for a few hours.

So I leave on two power conditioners, the amp, preamp, a second tubed preamp I use as a 'glorified tube buffer' for my DAC, the DAC, a Behringer DEQ2496. a solid state phono box.
And a CD changer.  these things have been left on nearly all of the last seven years..

Yeah it adds to the heat content in Summer, and so adds to the electric for air conditioning.. But it is worth the cost.

So I suggest trying leaving the amp preamp on all night and think over if it is worth it to you.
I find stuff takes about an hour to sound better, but it really does get even better after a few hours more.
Even part time. Like if you know you will listen the next day on a weekend, leave it on. Just shutting it down when you know you can't use it for a few days.

I agree with leaving SS amps on all the time for highest sound quality but don't post in this thread http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=149400.0 or you'll get an earful on that subject.  Note that I bowed out quickly.

[Tyson]

Sonus Faber speakers are laid back, that's how they are voiced and that's how they sound.  If you want more details, you'll need a fairly aggressive, forward sounding amp with a lot of power and grunt. 

[marksas]

Sonus Faber speakers are laid back, that's how they are voiced and that's how they sound.  If you want more details, you'll need a fairly aggressive, forward sounding amp with a lot of power and grunt.

Thanks for the input...that's why i was thinking along the lines of the Krell KAV-300i or something similar

[Elizabeth]

I agree with leaving SS amps on all the time for highest sound quality but don't post in this thread http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=149400.0 or you'll get an earful on that subject. 

Seems either the thread was 'cleaned up', or it really IS only about Pass amplifiers ..which it mentions run a pretty high wattage idle. So the discussion was about wasting large amounts of electricity with those maps (in particular) I remember reading of a dude who had FOUR large Pass amps he left on for a month. He cried when his electric bill was $800 larger.
(one point for Bryston amps, the B-SST² move to B­³ the class A percentage was dropped.. So at idle it is even more efficient. (the notion that class A is 'always' better is just a notion. One that lasted a long time, but life moves on. LOL)