[Jon L]

As usual I got home way too late, so I'll try to be succinct.  Big Thanks to Mad Dog and MOM for once again inviting us and thanks to everyone in attendance with various goodies.  I'll skip the procedural details and put down some impressions of components.

Thiel CS2.2 speakers

I didn't realize Mad Dog got these, and these oldies really sounded surprisingly good. First-order crossover and time-coherent speakers, like Thiels, really can paint a rock solid image without phasiness and sound coherent.  The ordinary-looking aluminum tweeter really outdid itself despite the humble origins, at once detailed and sweet.  Mids were pretty much the picture of neutrality, no more no less.  Bass was shockingly powerful/taut for the size of speakers, but it got a lot of help from Empirical Turbomod P3A, VH Audio power cords, Rowland 10 amp, etc.  

Overall, I think these are the best speakers I've heard at Mad Dogs, EVER!  Surprise, surprise.  Then again, I never got to hear the bi-wired Von Schweikert VR4jrs's at Mad Dogs, which he reports to be better.  It just kills me to know how much Mad Dog picked up the Thiels for.  

Rowland 10 amps

I was somewhat surprised by the sound signature of these Rowlands.  I've heard the previous generation Rowlands several times before, and these Model 10's are far more neutral.  Intricately woven inner resolution that UNFOLDS effortlessly from top to bottom without shouting or clouding.  Bass, when EA P3A is playing, was astonishingly taut, muscular, powerful, but not too dry.  I'd much rather choose these over the newer Rowland 201's, for example.  Can't really think of anything to criticize, other than they don't sound like really good push-pull tube amps.  But that's like saying a cat and dog are different...

Empirical Audio P3A

Fantastic DAC.  Like what I said about Rowland amps, I can't think of an area to point to and criticize.  Highs?  check.  Mids?  Check.  Bass?  You bet'cha it's a check!  Compared to other DAC's and players, what separates the EA apart is the total sense of authority and control from low bass to ultra-highs.  Usually a component so in control tends to sound sterile or not "musical," but the EA is anything BUT.  I know it's also musical as hell b/c every CD I brought sounded more musical and pleasurable than I've heard it before.  Veeery nice.  Really, throw out an audiophile criteria of your choice, it's got it covered.  A P3A Modwright level II , a great DAC in its own right, sounded a bit grainy, diffuse, and with less bass reach and impact.  Folks, we are not talking about "OMG, it's 10 times better!"  Maybe 15-20% if I had to give a number.  Is that big enough difference to YOU?

Denon 3910 CD/SACD/DVD player

Even after the heavyweights above, the Denon sounded fine, which is no small feat.  I can see why various modders are jumping on this machine.  Bone stock, the CD playback was nice without glaring errors.  Compared to EA, less detail, a bit leaner tonality, not as much bass definition, less dynamic, a bit more grain.  But not by all that much in each category as price difference may indicate as one can easily pick up 3910 for like $1000 brand new these days.  

Well-recorded SACD's sounded very good on this machine.  We flipped back and forth between CD and SACD layers of dual-layer discs for fun also.  Once again, while admitting that SACD had better openness, clarity, refinement, and ease, I still frequently prefer the CD layer for MY tastes. Well-recorded redbook these days sound very good.  Compared to SACD layer, it's more forward, less refined, a bit brasher, but it still engages me more with its bolder, thicker, upfront presentation.  So sue me...

Dodson 263 DAC

Dodson 218 was unfortunately unavailable, but we had the much cheaper (relatively speaking) 263 DAC.  I would have to place it somewhere above ModWright P3A but somewhat not reaching the heights of EA P3A.  263 sounded great still, and without close A-B comparison, most people probably would be quite happy with 263, which remained musical no matter what small (and I mean small) relative deficiencies there may be.  One day we hope to give 218 a spin.

Empirical Audio "Freeway" USB-to-SPDIF converter

I will have to defer to a future "Part II" audition due to the fact something is not right with my laptop and I couldn't get sound out of EAC/FOOBAR.  Got the track to play but no sound despite the track playing on screen.  No one else present could figure it out, either, despite trying every "Output mode" and combinations.  And the damned ASIO plugin kept crashing and forcing my computer to shut down every time I clicked on it.  When I can get this to work, I will report back with how things sound with Audioengr's preference:  Upsample mode on EAC/Foobar-->Freeway-->DAC.

For today, we stuck with iTunes and Apple Lossless, which has NEVER given me any trouble by the way.  We had a short session earlier, but after everyone left, Mad Dog and I compared redbook CD vs. Apple Loss files.  CD is via stable-platter Audio Alchemy transport-->Aural Thrills digital cable-->EA P3A.  Apple Lossless vis laptop-->EA "freeway" USB to SPDIF converter-->EA P3A.

Prelim impressions are that the hard-drive solution sounds WAY different from any CD playback I've heard.  Hard-drive solution sounded WAY smoother, devoid of etch/grit/digititis.  Doesn't sound like a CD is playing.  However, as Mad Dog pointed out, there also seemed to be less "texture" to the music, especially vocals, which may be a side effect of scrubbing off any etch or digital artifacts.  On brightish CD's (most commercial) hard drive really sounded great and natural.  On darkish or less-detailed CD's, actual CD may have sounded like it had more "life" and flamboyance.  

Stayed Tuned for Part II (I hope).

VH Audio power cords

I've always known this stuff is good.  My personal favorite DIY cords still use Belden 83802, which is what Chris bases his designs (1-3) on.  I'll just repeat what others say.  These are great, great bargains in power cord today.  Great detail, neutrality, with bass that won't quit.  Everyone should try one or two.  When we swapped in a VH cord for an Audience PowerChord on Manley Shrimp tube preamp, the improvement in detail, linearity, and bass tautness was quite obvious.  

Anyway, feel free to chime in if you were there

P.S.  Shokunin, we missed you, but we are assuming you are using the time off to get your RMX's and Dehavillands ready for us  

[shauk786]

Many thanks to Mag Dog and his wife to invite us over. We had a very good time at this session.

JonL pretty much sums it all up. We also listened to Russtafarian's modded Panny ( I can't remember the model ) which sounded quite good to my ears for a $260.00 machine. Russ can expand on the mods he did.

Russ: that KOBO CD you had really rocks, PLease remind me the album's name again.

I had a great time, even though, the traveling time from simi was 2 hrs each way.

Shauk786

[shokunin]

As usual, great notes Jon!!  Too bad the Dodson 218 was not available that would be the DAC to compare against the others.   Did anyone do any tests with the passive attenuators? (Nude EVS vs. Endler or ??)  

sounds like you guys had a great time, hopefully I'll be available for the next one.

[Jon L]

As usual, great notes Jon!!  Too bad the Dodson 218 was not available that would be the DAC to compare against the others.   Did anyone do any tests with the passive attenuators? (Nude EVS vs. Endler or ??)  

sounds like you guys had a great time, hopefully I'll be available for the next one.

I neglected to mention that we were using my EVS "nude" ultimate attenuators for most of the sessions.  Early on, we compared mine with Mad Dog's earlier version EVS attentuators using a small box.  The latest version sounded clearer, more transparent.

The Endler attenuator is coming to Mad Dog but not here yet.  Since it seems to cost less than EVS, I'm all for it if it matches and/or betters it

I think Mad Dog will attest through his forays in various preamps that a good, simple, passive that hooks up to the amp input terminals is VERY, very, very hard to beat for that illusive "straight wire with gain."  Well, the EVS doesn't have even ANY wire, and its advantage is not having to provide any gain.  It's still hard to believe the Placette Passive didnt' work at all in this system.  It's perhaps the extra internal wiring/switching as well as extra pair of interconnects involved..  

I should mention that the Pioneer 563 that Russ modded with output transformers sounded very nice.  In the olden days, a $150 dollar CDP had no chance of sounding musical evenn with some mods.  These days, a cheap DVD player designed with simplicity can be modded for some musical results.

[Rocket]

Hi Jon,

I was wondering when you compared the 2 dacs i.e. modwright level 2 and the ea pt dac did you have a perpetual technologies p1a connected?

The ea mod sounds really worthwhile but i have other upgrade priorities at the moment (like a new amp).

Thanks for the report.

regards

rod

[Mad DOg]

man, i was beat after yesterday's session! no energy left to write up any impressions...

it was great seeing familiar faces again as well as some new faces! evaluating gear is always more fun in a group...sharing great gear, great tunes, great folks, great laughs...this is really what it's all about. it's just not the same doing it alone...

we missed good friends, shokunin and john casler.

special thanks to Ralph Dodson for making his excellent 263 DAC available.
special thanks to Steve Nugent for making his stellar EA modded demo P-3/A DAC available.
special thanks to Chris VenHaus for making his wonderful power cords available.
special thanks to John McDonald for making the Audience PowerChord available.

thanks to shauk for drivin' 2 hrs ea way and bringin' his denon 3910.
thanks to Jon L for bring his PC EA Freeway USB -> S/PDIF converter, EVS Ultimate Nude Attenuators, and for introducing me to a bunch of new music!
thanks to Russtafarian for bringing his self modded Pioneer 563 DVDP, Manley Shrimp preamp, and a bunch or great music!

[Mad DOg]

I was wondering when you compared the 2 dacs i.e. modwright level 2 and the ea pt dac did you have a perpetual technologies p1a connected?

The ea mod sounds really worthwhile but i have other upgrade priorities at the moment (like a new amp).

Hello Rod,

When we compared the 2 P-3/A DACs, we did not use the P-1/A. i have found that as my system has evolved and i eliminated more and more of the grain and glare, the P-1/A became detrimental to the sound. less open, more constricting across the highs. 6dB drop made it impossible to effectively use the passive EVS attenuators. more cables and connections only serves to degrade sound futher. switching from Ref 1s to Thiels eliminated the need for SOCS.

The EA mod is REALLY worthwhile...I'll weigh in w/ some comments later regarding the session...

[Rocket]

Hi Mad Dog,

I'm sure the ea modification is excellent but i can't afford it at the moment   .  My pt dac level 2 should return home shortly and i will critically listen to it with the p1a in and out of the loop.

When i initially bought the p1a i thought it improved the sound quality but that was a year or so ago.

Thanks for the review.

REgards

Rod

[Mad DOg]

When i initially bought the p1a i thought it improved the sound quality but that was a year or so ago.

when i got the p1a, it did improve the sound as well...

just for reference

my system then:
CD Transport: Rotel RDD-980 (captive PC)
DAC: PT P3a MW1 w/ stock I2S cable w/ stock wall wart
Preamp: Adcom GFP565 (captive PC)
Amps: Aragon Palladium II monos
Cables: Zu Disco analog RCA ICs, stock PCs for amps
Speakers: Onix Reference 1 monitors, Onix Grand Master Digital Coax

my system now:
CD Transport: Audio Alchemy DDS-Pro w/ Eichmann eXpress6 PC
DAC: PT P3a MW2 w/ Monolithic P-3 power supply (experimenting w/ various PCs)
Preamp: EVS 12 step ultimate attenuator
Amp: Jeff Rowland Model 10 amp w/ VenHaus 20A Flavor 4 PC
Cables: Aural Thrill gold digital coax, CryoTweaks Silver Reference MkII IC
Speakers: Thiel CS2.2

pretty dramatic changes in my system have rendered the P1a unnecessary IMO.

[zybar]

As usual I got home way too late, so I'll try to be succinct.  Big Thanks to Mad Dog and MOM for once again inviting us and thanks to everyone in attendance with various goodies.  I'll skip the procedural details and put down some impressions of components.

VH Audio power cords

I've always known this stuff is good. My personal favorite DIY cords still use Belden 83802, which is what Chris bases his designs (1-3) on. I'll just repeat what others say. These are great, great bargains in power cord today. Great detail, neutrality, with bass that won't quit. Everyone should try one or two. When we swapped in a VH cord for an Audience PowerChord on Manley Shrimp tube preamp, the improvement in detail, linearity, and bass tautness was quite obvious.

Jon,

I might have missed it, but which version of Chris' power cords did you use?

I have compared his Flavor 4's (I have two with the Wattgate Gold and one with the Furutech Rhodium connectors) with numerous other pc's (including the Audience) and the Flavor 4's just keep staying in an ever changing and evolving system.  

Factor in Chris' excellent customer service and great prices and you have one of the best products/companies in the market.

George

[Mad DOg]

which version of Chris' power cords did you use?

for the preamp, the Flavor 2 (BRAND SPANKIN' new w/ NO BURN in time on it at all) was used...the Audience PC was burned in.

for the amp, the Flavor 4 was used (had maybe 15 hrs MAX burn in time)

for the CDT, the Flavor 4 was used (had maybe 15 hrs MAX burn in time)

for the DACs, the Flavor 1 was used (had maybe 15 hrs MAX burn in time)

we put another 7 hours of burn in time on all the VenHaus PCs except for the Flavor 2.

[zybar]

which version of Chris' power cords did you use?

for the preamp, the Flavor 2 (BRAND SPANKIN' new w/ NO BURN in time on it at all) was used...the Audience PC was burned in.

for the amp, the Flavor 4 was used (had maybe 15 hrs MAX burn in time)

for the CDT, the Flavor 4 was used (had maybe 15 hrs MAX burn in time)

for the DACs, the Flavor 1 was used (had maybe 15 hrs MAX burn in time)

we put another 7 hours of burn in time on all the VenHaus PCs except for the Flavor 2.

Thanks Mad Dog.

Wait till you get some hours on them.  You really haven't heard what they are capable of yet.

George

[Mad DOg]

As usual, Jon L sums everything up so well w/ his impressions. as i've said before, Jon L's impressions always hit the bullseye cuz he just has so much experience with all sorts of gear and cables.

there is so much i can comment on from yesterday, but since the focus was on DACs and sources, i'm going to focus my comments to these and touch on a few highlights that i feel deserve mention.

Highlights:
Jon L's EVS Nude Attenuators: the most transparent, neutral volume control i've heard other than the Placette Active. without doing a direct a/b comparison w/ Shokunin's Placette Active, it's hard for me to say which is better. the Placette might have better dynamics.

VenHaus PCs: these are some very special PCs. and they're not fully broken in yet...and Chris is a great guy to boot! highly recommend giving VenHaus products a try!

Bedini Ultra Clarifier: a few came complete SKEPTICS and left BELIEVERS! smoother sound. better separation and clarity. tighter, cleaner bass. less grain in the mids. and a 2nd treatment w/ the Bedini further improves sound. a 3rd treatment further improves sound.

Auric Illuminator: most of the folks had left by now. but after Russtafarian's EmmyLou Harris CD had been Bedinized, with his permission, i treated his CD w/ Auric Illuminator. again, further improvements across the board were heard. more analog like and liquid sound. bass tightened up even more. further improvements in separation were heard.

Source comparison:(from worst to best)
Pioneer 563: for $260 total including some mods, this DVDP really impressed.

Denon 3910 ($1200?): was surprisingly good in stock form. having said that, it didn't have the bass extension or control of any of the DACs. lacked the resolution and detail in highs. midrange weight wasn't as good either. overall good, balanced presentation if not entirely engaging. this would have been good enough for me in the past, but there's no way this sound could satisfy me in stock form now.

ModWright Level 2 Perpetual Tech P-3/A w/ Monolithic P-3 power supply ($1548) (for yesterday, we used Steve Nugent's power supply): my reference DAC for the past year or so. after hearing the Dodson 218, i found tough to go back to listening to this. weaknesses are hardness and grain in midrange frequencies. doesn't let you forget you're listening to digital. highs aren't open, tranparent and airy enough (stock Benchmark DAC-1 does highs better still albeit w/ a bit more glare). bass is quite good, better than the most other digital sources i've heard. decay is not properly sustained when compared to better DACs. dynamics do strain and compress a volume. clarity and separation while good still leave room for improvement.

Dodson 263 DAC ($2,800): the BEST stock DAC i've heard for under $3K. more natural midrange than my MW p3a. more musical. better decay and sustain. fuller sounding. slightly better separation and resolution in the highs. bass performance was considerably better-tighter, fuller and more extended. excellent overall balance. maintained composure on dynamic peaks. still significantly off the mark set by its big brother which simply wow'd everyone in attendance at the last session. i still haven't experienced the same jaw-dropping experience that the 218 (the best DAC i've heard in my system at ANY price) delivered.

Empirical Audio Modded Perpetual Tech P-3/A w/ the EA custom Power Supply ($2300 + ~$750 for PS purchased directly from EA): while this DAC did not hit me like the Dodson 218 freight train did, the price tag (not cheap either) doesn't cause my heart to stop and go into cardiac arrest. full, dynamic, robust sound all around. more resolution and better separation than every other source on this day without sounding analytical or digital. no harshness, grain or glare. bass is tight, full and extended. presentation was bigger than any other source. as the EA DAC didn't leave my jaw open w/ saliva dripping out, i don't think the EA modded P-3/A can keep up w/ the Dodson 218 but can't be certain w/o a direct a/b comparison. bottom line is the EA modded DAC is DAYEM good though. but is it good enough to satisfy me since I just can't go back to listening to my MW level 2 P-3/A? since I can't afford the $8K Dodson 218 which I would LOVE to own, i could've been quite happy w/ the 263 which was a decent step up if not dramatic. but then came the EA modded P-3/A. if the difference btwn the MW P-3/A DAC and Dodson represents 1 step on a 10 step scale, the EA modded P-3/A DAC represents a 3 step improvement over the MW modded DAC or a 2 step improvement over the Dodson 263. Both the Dodson and EA DACs are far more fluid and analog sounding than the MW modded DAC.

so there you have it...thanks again to all the folks who have made this wonderful session possible! happy listening until next time...

[lonewolfny42]

Thanks for the reports !!

Can you list what music you played for the comparisons.....Thanks !! [/list:u]

[Mad DOg]

Thanks for the reports !!

Can you list what music you played for the comparisons.....Thanks !! [/list:u]

what??? you mean we were supposed to evaluate the gear w/ MUSIC???      

sheeyat...why didn't someone tell us earlier?  

Kasey Chambers: Wayward Angel
Rachael Yamagata: Happenstance
Mahler's Sym No. 2 (Michael Tillson Thomas)
Josh Groban: Closer
Emmy Lou Harris: Stumble Into Grace
Tom Wait: Real Gone
Ray LaMontagne: Trouble
The Bad Plus

gotta run out now, maybe Jon L and Russ can jump in w/ rest of the tunes we used...

[lonewolfny42]

Thanks for the reports !!

Can you list what music you played for the comparisons.....Thanks !! [/list:u]

what??? you mean we were supposed to evaluate the gear w/ MUSIC???      

sheeyat...why didn't someone tell us earlier?  

gotta run out now, maybe Jon L and Russ can jump in w/ the music we used...

See....I could of "loaned" you some cd's.......

Loanwolf[/list:u]

[Mad DOg]

Warning: The Bad Plus bass track can cause amps to go into clipping...asking the Rowland to drive difficult loads such as my Thiels at loud volumes did trip the circuit breaker on my amp. and the cooling fins on the amp and power supply were hot enough to fry an egg!  

[ooheadsoo]

Which track was that?

[lonewolfny42]

Which track was that?

Track # 2

[lonewolfny42]

Reason I ask about the music.....trying to see what cd's are common to most groups. This way we all know what each other is writing about...example  The Bad Plus....track # 2....bass (for reference). The NY Audio Rave does use a few of the same cd's all the time as a reference.