[jMelvin]

Congrats on the terrific review Louis!

From Audio Bacon:

https://audiobacon.net/2017/04/23/omega-super-3i-loudspeakers-and-deepomega-8-subwoofer-review/

[roscoe65]

One interesting observation in the review is "One thing I did notice was a slight fall off on the 4.5″ RS5 drivers which presents a gap between 160-300 Hz.".  This correlates with Louis' solution of adding a helper RS5 driver below 500hz in the HO models.  A number of us have found that subwoofers can add missing bass, but usually have difficulty compensating for missing upper bass. 

[Canada Rob]

Generally a good review.  All most of us can go on is our own personal experience with a given piece of audio gear, not to mention there's a lot of subjectivity in audio.  It's not like video where the differences are immediate when one sees the superiority of one monitor over the other, where better is really better, no questions asked.

My personal experience with the Super 3i goes back to 2010 when the cabinet was an inch narrower and it had the previous hemp cone driver.
I was running the highly touted John Blue JB3 at the time on the desktop.  I pulled them and set up the 3i's straight out of the box and played the same music.  It was no contest across the board, especially in the bass department with quick articulate transparent bass, unlike the (sometimes, depending on the music) boomy, boxy bass/midbass the JB3s exhibited which sucked the life out of the midrange.  I also ran the same Super 3i's with and without subwoofer in room systems with excellent results, albeit with some music sounding a bit thin without the sub.  Imaging was insane in all cases.  The slight thinness of the Super 3i in some, but not all music was far more acceptable to my ears than the often boomy accentuated bass/midbass many small monitors exhibit.  To this day one of the best desktop systems I recall hearing are those same hemp cone 3i's, with a Decware SE84C+, and KingRex UD-01 DAC with external PSU MK2 power supply.

Fast forward to when Louis introduced the RS5 driver in the then new Super 3T (he inexplicably dropped the 3i, and 5 Monitors in favor of the 3T and 3E).  In a room system with a Decware SE84CCE Select, the 3T's were sublime - truly the RS5 clobbers the hemp cone.  Time for the desktop.  Very disappointing with boomy bass/midbass.  This new driver with the less stiff surround needed a little more damping than the hemp cone did.  The Glow Audio Amp One SEP with it's small amount of negative feedback fixed the problem, as did every solid state amp I tried with these speakers thereafter on the desktop.  Where the SE84 or Kitoki (with their zero negative feedback)/Super 3i combo really shine is in a room system, and with the right acoustics and setup, no sub is needed.  I find my choice of DAC can have a huge effect on the weight of the presentation.

To say the Super 3i cart blank needs a sub is simply not true.  Source, amp, cabling, room acoustics, and the music played have a profound effect on this speaker.  In reality, there is no sub on earth that will keep up with it's electrostatic speed, although in some cases a sub can be a help.  To this day, after being in audio for over 40 years (with still excellent hearing) the Super 3i is one of the finest small monitors I've heard regardless of price.  With a SEP, Class D, or Gain Clone the Super 3i is king of the desktop and to this day I've never felt the need of a sub.  With the right acoustics in a room system, I like a good SET (with zero negative feedback) driving the Super 3i.

For about the last almost 50 years the audio industry has been preoccupied with accentuated bass/midbass due at least to three phenomenon: the emergence of rock music with electric bass, cheap high power solid state amplifiers, and more compact speakers with heavier, less efficient drivers.  If you are ever privileged to listen to a set of vintage Altecs or the like, you will hear a completely different sound - utterly sublime and "you are there" reality with no accentuated bass/midbass.  Sad thing was they were big, pricey, and wouldn't fit in the average home of that day.  Simply put, Louis has been able the capture that vintage sound in a much more compact package.  I've attended many live performances of different genres of music, amplified and not amplified, and find the sound (including the bass/midbass) that many modern stereo systems produce is not the same - it's artificial.

Addendum:
What would take the RS5 driver to the next level in looks and sound is for it to have a cast basket.  3D imagery has been done for a cast basket and it's gorgeous, almost a miniature of the Alnico basket, but Louis has not proceeded with it.  The cast basket with it's much thinner basket frames would allow freer movement of the driver both in and out, generally improving dynamics all around and possibly even efficiency, not to mention the other advantages a cast aluminum basket has over a stamped steel one.

[syzygy]

love my 3Ts and deep 8 sub

[Canada Rob]

syzygy,

Those are Super 3 Desktops, not Super 3T's, and they do need a sub as they are quite a bit smaller than the Super 3i or Super 3T.

[roscoe65]

While the Super 3i (or my own Super 3) does not need a sub, they definitely sound lean when placed in the free space, which has been the prescribed positioning for monitors for the last couple of decades.  I listened to them side by side with a pair of Dynaco A25XL's and the contrast was pretty clear.  While the Dynaco has a 10" midbass, it has never been regarded as a bass-heavy speaker.

Two things were necessary for me to accept the Super 3 as a "full range" monitor:  replacing the Fostex FE127e driver with the RS5 driver and placing them near room boundaries.  They are the wide-baffle models so boundary placement is pretty easy.

That being said, They are not the best for a lot of music I like.  Most of the music I listen to has been produced in my lifetime, and as Rob indicated has a lot of electric bass.  As nice as the Super 3 is, it doesn't do justice to the bass lines of Red Hot Chili Peppers or Bela Fleck.

I have the luxury of being able to listen to different speakers for different music; I have RS5-based speakers, Super Alnico's supported by stereo Rhythmik subwoofers, and a pair of those Altec two-way horn speakers Rob likes as well. 

[pursuitofnow]

syzygy, great little setup! Looks like a an awesome space to tune in and drop out.

[EVOLVIST]

It's funny the circles we run in, as I'm sure Jay got this idea from Roy, the same person I got my idea from by running straight out of my Chord DAVE at 2wpc via RCA. That's the DAVE's pre-amp, folks. Only Roy and purchased the CAMs and both of us used a JL f110 for the sub.

I no longer have the CAMs. It wasn't a mistake getting rid of them, because I needed a bit "more," yet I really don't think I gave Omega a fair shake. I only hope Louis would sell to me if I decide to go the Omega route again. *sigh*

[roscoe65]

One thing I have found is that oftentimes specs don't tell the whole story.  A speaker that is rated at 98dB should work well with five watts, but may actually be happier with much more.  A lot of JBL and Altec speakers have a high rated sensitivity but really need at least 20wpc or so to come alive, even in smaller spaces.  On the other hand, most Harbeth speakers are rated in the mid-80's for sensitivity but well with low power.

While the Chord Dave is rated to output 2wpc, I would suspect that it is not necessarily able to supply the current and damping necessary to happily drive speakers in a normal room.  OTOH, the 2wpc Decware (or the 1.6wpc 45 amp I once owned) does very well with speakers that it - on paper - shouldn't.  If the CAM doesn't work with the 2wpc of your Dave, I would be more inclined to lay the blame at the feet of your "amp" than those of the speakers.  Sometimes we have to admit that just because we have a very powerful headphone amp, it still remains a headphone amp with its limitations.

[Canada Rob]

Ditto roscoe65,

Sensitivity specs don't always tell the whole story.  I've had two different small 2 way monitors with sensitivity specs in the mid 80's on the 2 watt Decware - one worked very well and the other clipped the amp almost immediately when the music got at all demanding.  I believe in most cases it's the crossover design.  The 2 way that worked well was the Canadian made Angstrom Pochetto II and when I talked to the designer he said he purposely made the crossover tube friendly.

[DaveC113]

Nice review, Jay!

Most compression drivers are going to need a correction network to even out impedance and FR + higher order xo's but they can still work well with small SET amps. I think impedance and phase curves are most telling wrt compatibility and I think that's mostly what we hear, the output impedance of the tube amp certainly doesn't play well with many speakers.

So with the Dave I think if we consider current capabilities, i.e. is it rated to drive 8 ohm? The user manual says no:

Audio Outputs

There is a pair of stereo balanced outputs via Neutrik XLR style connectors and one pair of stereo
unbalanced outputs via gold plated RCA phono style connectors. Each of these will drive down to a
50ohm load. This means that Dave will work with all known pre-amplifiers and is able to drive very
long audio cables without difficulty. Both audio outputs work at the same time so this allows Dave to
be connected to two pre-amplifiers if needed.

As Dave features a digital
volume control it can also be connected directly to a power amplifier
without the need for a preamplifier.

http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Dave-User-Manual.pdf

Website page: http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/product/dave/

I was actually thinking about this as Jay has some of my cables and an adapter to go from Dave to binding posts, and was getting some results that remind me of break-in but could also be impedance mismatch which may be the case. As my cables are very clear/neutral it will be more obvious vs most other cables. It is likely the output section of the Dave is running out of current and causing current clipping but unless we know how many amps it's capable of putting out we can only guess.

I also made cables for Roy, he wanted RCA jacks on the speaker but I am glad he ended up going with binding posts as now it will be easy for Roy and Jay to try other amplifiers and use the Dave as a preamp. For many, even a great majority of Omega users, the best capabilities of the Omegas are only realized using a decent SET amp. Not that other amps aren't ok, but it's much more hit or miss I think.

The Dave could work with an autoformer to achieve the current required to drive 8 ohms, but then you'd probably be voltage/SPL limited.

[EVOLVIST]

Nice review, Jay!

Most compression drivers are going to need a correction network to even out impedance and FR + higher order xo's but they can still work well with small SET amps. I think impedance and phase curves are most telling wrt compatibility and I think that's mostly what we hear, the output impedance of the tube amp certainly doesn't play well with many speakers.

So with the Dave I think if we consider current capabilities, i.e. is it rated to drive 8 ohm? The user manual says no:

http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Dave-User-Manual.pdf

Website page: http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/product/dave/

I was actually thinking about this as Jay has some of my cables and an adapter to go from Dave to binding posts, and was getting some results that remind me of break-in but could also be impedance mismatch which may be the case. As my cables are very clear/neutral it will be more obvious vs most other cables. It is likely the output section of the Dave is running out of current and causing current clipping but unless we know how many amps it's capable of putting out we can only guess.

I also made cables for Roy, he wanted RCA jacks on the speaker but I am glad he ended up going with binding posts as now it will be easy for Roy and Jay to try other amplifiers and use the Dave as a preamp. For many, even a great majority of Omega users, the best capabilities of the Omegas are only realized using a decent SET amp. Not that other amps aren't ok, but it's much more hit or miss I think.

The Dave could work with an autoformer to achieve the current required to drive 8 ohms, but then you'd probably be voltage/SPL limited.

The specs provide by the Chord website aren't totally telling of the whole picture. I've had many conversations with Rob Watts about this.

The 6.7vRMS produced by the DAVE's RCA outputs is right before clipping at 6.8vRMS, the former number actually producing about 2.8wpc. That's nearly 3watts from a pre-amp! However, that's at 0.5 amps. You have a very low damping factor, as well.

Still, as we know, all watts are not created equally, based on several factors. At any rate, my experience with the same rig was that yes, this could really work in an extreme near field setup. I mean, it's certainly was a hyper pure sound. For me, though, I just couldn't resist cranking the CAMs, and it just wouldn't crank with the DAVE, alone.

It's a very good solution if you want speakers as your headphones.

[roscoe65]

This strikes me an an ideal use for the First Watt F4.  This is a unity gain amplifier that turns a voltage input to a current output.

[syzygy]

syzygy,

Those are Super 3 Desktops, not Super 3T's, and they do need a sub as they are quite a bit smaller than the Super 3i or Super 3T.

Actually, the labels on the back of the speakers state that they are "Super 3T Desktop".

[elviscaprice]

One nice thing about not using a separate preamp/AMP, is that you not introducing any further stray electrical AC noise into your system.  Proper isolation and power supplies are important.  By keeping your component chain simple and low power DC, can be extremely rewarding to sound quality and the wallet.  Looking forward to my experience with Omega speakers and a Chord DAC.  Great review.

[DaveC113]

This strikes me an an ideal use for the First Watt F4.  This is a unity gain amplifier that turns a voltage input to a current output.

With an F4 you'd still be limited to 6.7V...

On it's own, if the Dave outputs .5A it's limited to 4V max before current is limited. I'd also guess the output impedance will make for a damping factor low enough to be an issue as well.

At low volumes it might be fine though, but folks using the Dave direct should understand it's limitations and that they might not be getting the best possible results, especially as volume is increased.

[Canada Rob]

Actually, the labels on the back of the speakers state that they are "Super 3T Desktop".

Your speakers have an early label.  My first set said "Super 3T Desktop" on the label too.  The Labels were changed to "Super 3 Desktop" later.  The Super 3T was a boxy little monitor that also worked well on the desktop, but took up quite a bit of room due to their wider baffle (it wasn't that visually appealing either IMO).  I suggested to Louis to narrow the Super 3T cabinet, put tilt up spikes under it, and bottom port it so it will couple with the table and not the wall behind.  That way it can sit on a table facing out into a room or against a wall without being affected much by either situation.  There's the history as to why it was called at first "Super 3T Desktop".

[elviscaprice]

With an F4 you'd still be limited to 6.7V...

On it's own, if the Dave outputs .5A it's limited to 4V max before current is limited. I'd also guess the output impedance will make for a damping factor low enough to be an issue as well.

At low volumes it might be fine though, but folks using the Dave direct should understand it's limitations and that they might not be getting the best possible results, especially as volume is increased.

Or they could be getting far better SQ by not introducing  additional components such as amp (which is the DAVE designers argument and suggestion, which he enjoys with horns).  Doesn't hurt to experiment and of course room size/conditions can make for different needs.
  Dave, are you saying that the extremely low output impedance of the DAVE could be a bad thing for sound quality in direct combination with the Omega speakers?  Would appreciate a further explanation as to why you think this could be a problem, thank you?

[DaveC113]

Or they could be getting far better SQ by not introducing  additional components such as amp (which is the DAVE designers argument and suggestion, which he enjoys with horns).  Doesn't hurt to experiment and of course room size/conditions can make for different needs.
  Dave, are you saying that the extremely low output impedance of the DAVE could be a bad thing for sound quality in direct combination with the Omega speakers?  Would appreciate a further explanation as to why you think this could be a problem, thank you?

It depends on what you consider low... preamps generally have much higher output impedances vs amps. A typical preamp, even one with low output impedance for a pre, is still too high for an 8 ohm speaker. What I said was the damping factor is likely to be too low which means the output impedance is too high. But I didn't see specs for output impedance for the Dave in the manual. Unless it's abnormally low for a preamp then it's probably very high relative to an amp and the result will be a very low damping factor. I assume this based on the fact they say it will drive down to a 50 ohm load and not an 8 ohm load.

Current Omega drivers will work out well driven by a large range of amps so there would be no problem with a low output impedance amplifier. That wasn't really the case with the older 4.5 hemp driver, it didn't like low output impedance amps.

No matter which way you slice it the Dave isn't going to have much headroom so higher SPL operation will surely be compromised. But not everyone cares about higher SPLs especially for a desk system. I just don't want people to think this is a reasonable solution in every circumstance. Personally, there's no way I could live with 2W peaks.

I also think a good SET amp will likely be far better vs the Dave by its self in the same way a really good tube preamp or buffer is often better vs a passive preamp but personal preference comes into play too.

[elviscaprice]

It depends on what you consider low... preamps generally have much higher output impedances vs amps. A typical preamp, even one with low output impedance for a pre, is still too high for an 8 ohm speaker. What I said was the damping factor is likely to be too low which means the output impedance is too high. But I didn't see specs for output impedance for the Dave in the manual. Unless it's abnormally low for a preamp then it's probably very high relative to an amp and the result will be a very low damping factor. I assume this based on the fact they say it will drive down to a 50 ohm load and not an 8 ohm load.

Current Omega drivers will work out well driven by a large range of amps so there would be no problem with a low output impedance amplifier. That wasn't really the case with the older 4.5 hemp driver, it didn't like low output impedance amps.

No matter which way you slice it the Dave isn't going to have much headroom so higher SPL operation will surely be compromised. But not everyone cares about higher SPLs especially for a desk system. I just don't want people to think this is a reasonable solution in every circumstance. Personally, there's no way I could live with 2W peaks.

I also think a good SET amp will likely be far better vs the Dave by its self in the same way a really good tube preamp or buffer is often better vs a passive preamp but personal preference comes into play too.

Thanks Dave,
The output impedance of the DAVE is .055ohms.  2.8Watts peak.