[youravhandyman]

Odd thing about your statement "that is what dealers are for" to me.  Being a "dealer" myself I have to point out that the investment to have display space is sizable to start.  But to have it configured for the latest and ever changing surround codecs and equipment is just about impossible to keep up with for all but the largest dealers in town.  Think about it for a second, when did you last go to Best Buy and hear such a demo?  At least in my market that would be never.  If there are more than 2 dealers in my city with a complete Atmos/Aura 3D demo I would be shocked. 
And as a dealer I could not just simply display the technology I would have to integrate it into an environment that is pleasing to the person who may purchase it.  Most guys here would be perfectly happy assembling a system such as yours if it performed but would never convince our wives that we should.  That same applies to sales.  The WAF is a HUGE issue with such purchases and must be addressed by any dealer with a show room.
So open up your home and show your goods.  Share your love for music, sound and technology with those around you that would appreciate it.  Many may not have the budget for such a purchase at this time and may really appreciate your efforts.  If you are a private person and choose not to invite others into your home I would find it odd that you include pictures in the first place.

[witchdoctor]

They can't put for any sort of cogent response to any of the very basic science put forth, so it's ad hominem, red herrings, etc from here on out.
Your thread title is a bit hyperbolic, but then again, the responses of the 2ch stalwarts....

Perhaps your title should have been "Realistic immersion from 2ch vs mch, no contest". but then again...
I guess the folks who heard this (posted earlier) http://www.onhifi.com/features/20010615.htm would never have heard a "good" 2ch system either.

cheers,

AJ

Thanks for posting this, I have read similar things about a good ambisonics setup.

[witchdoctor]

Odd thing about your statement "that is what dealers are for" to me.  Being a "dealer" myself I have to point out that the investment to have display space is sizable to start.  But to have it configured for the latest and ever changing surround codecs and equipment is just about impossible to keep up with for all but the largest dealers in town.  Think about it for a second, when did you last go to Best Buy and hear such a demo?  At least in my market that would be never.  If there are more than 2 dealers in my city with a complete Atmos/Aura 3D demo I would be shocked. 
And as a dealer I could not just simply display the technology I would have to integrate it into an environment that is pleasing to the person who may purchase it.  Most guys here would be perfectly happy assembling a system such as yours if it performed but would never convince our wives that we should.  That same applies to sales.  The WAF is a HUGE issue with such purchases and must be addressed by any dealer with a show room.
So open up your home and show your goods.  Share your love for music, sound and technology with those around you that would appreciate it.  Many may not have the budget for such a purchase at this time and may really appreciate your efforts.  If you are a private person and choose not to invite others into your home I would find it odd that you include pictures in the first place.

Thanks very much for your post, no disrespect to dealers intended. My post was meant to encourage anyone reading this thread to get advice from a dealer in addition to the internet. Magnolia does have a room setup to demo Atmos and it sounds great in certain stores.
I think you are the PERFECT candidate to open your room and show your wares as you are a dealer. IMO 10 small speakers can be less obtrusive than 2 towers but that is purely subjective.

How about at least doing an auro3d demo for yourself and posting about it?

You might like this article about how a dealer helped a client setup and Auro 3D theater:

http://www.toruspower.com/articles/powered-up-for-auro-3d-surround-sound-2/

[Bendingwave]

Odd thing about your statement "that is what dealers are for" to me.  Being a "dealer" myself I have to point out that the investment to have display space is sizable to start.  But to have it configured for the latest and ever changing surround codecs and equipment is just about impossible to keep up with for all but the largest dealers in town.  Think about it for a second, when did you last go to Best Buy and hear such a demo?  At least in my market that would be never.  If there are more than 2 dealers in my city with a complete Atmos/Aura 3D demo I would be shocked. 
And as a dealer I could not just simply display the technology I would have to integrate it into an environment that is pleasing to the person who may purchase it.  Most guys here would be perfectly happy assembling a system such as yours if it performed but would never convince our wives that we should.  That same applies to sales.  The WAF is a HUGE issue with such purchases and must be addressed by any dealer with a show room.
So open up your home and show your goods.  Share your love for music, sound and technology with those around you that would appreciate it.  Many may not have the budget for such a purchase at this time and may really appreciate your efforts.  If you are a private person and choose not to invite others into your home I would find it odd that you include pictures in the first place.

Opening up ones private home to complete strangers to demo a product is as unpractical as a dealer having a show room with a complete atmos/aura 3d demo set up. 

If one really wants to experience atmos/3d one can do it the practical way by purchasing said product and demo it in there OWN home and if they dont like it return it before the friggen (usually 30 day) warranty expires....for those who cant afford it well then all you can do is go by OTHER peoples EXPERIENCES with said product.

[witchdoctor]

Odd thing about your statement "that is what dealers are for" to me.  Being a "dealer" myself I have to point out that the investment to have display space is sizable to start.  But to have it configured for the latest and ever changing surround codecs and equipment is just about impossible to keep up with for all but the largest dealers in town.  Think about it for a second, when did you last go to Best Buy and hear such a demo?  At least in my market that would be never.  If there are more than 2 dealers in my city with a complete Atmos/Aura 3D demo I would be shocked. 
And as a dealer I could not just simply display the technology I would have to integrate it into an environment that is pleasing to the person who may purchase it.  Most guys here would be perfectly happy assembling a system such as yours if it performed but would never convince our wives that we should.  That same applies to sales.  The WAF is a HUGE issue with such purchases and must be addressed by any dealer with a show room.
So open up your home and show your goods.  Share your love for music, sound and technology with those around you that would appreciate it.  Many may not have the budget for such a purchase at this time and may really appreciate your efforts.  If you are a private person and choose not to invite others into your home I would find it odd that you include pictures in the first place.

 Do you have a Regal Cinema in your area? Why not just get down to your local Regal Cinema and get an Auro 3D demo in the movie theater?

http://www.regmovies.com/Theatres/auro


http://www.auro-3d.com/consumer/movies

[Early B.]

Opening up ones private home to complete strangers to demo a product is as unpractical as a dealer having a show room with a complete atmos/aura 3d demo set up. 

Stick around audiocircle long enough and you'll realize that most of us are willing to allow complete strangers into our homes for demos. 

[Bob in St. Louis]

Stick around audiocircle long enough and you'll realize that most of us are willing to allow complete strangers into our homes for demos.

And there's usual alcohol involved. 

[thunderbrick]

Well compare two channel stereo to video, would you use a TV from the fifties or even one from the nineties?

Invalid analogy.  There's some damned fine 1950s audio gear out there, still highly sought after for SQ.   1950s TV was primitive technology, designed for convenience, but let's consider the software.  Fine recordings and performances from certain labels were commonplace, as were the production values of major motion pictures. 

Educate yourself.  See the restored version of Lawrence of Arabia in a real theater; a statement of art that will blow you away.   Made for the theater experience.  Mono, still amazing a good two-channel rig, and stereo were made for listening, be it the "King's seat" or a good console.

In comparison 1950s TV was finger painting.

[rollo]

Don't get me wrong, two channel is fine for a desktop but for the main listening room it is WAY too expensive compared to immersive audio. Why do you see six figure systems on display at Axpona or these other shows? Because that what it costs to make 2 channel suck less. If your idea of audio fun is gluing your ass to the sweet spot and pretending it doesn't suck just move around the room a little to see what I mean.

Do me a favor, buy 10 decent book shelf speakers and a sub and get yourself a Marantz or Denon receiver, get the Auro 3D upgrade and just leave it on. You can thank me later while you move around the room and it sounds great everywhere and an orchestra sounds like an orchestra not a facsimile.

   Just not so. There are many ways to skin the proverbial Cat with two channel. We are creating an illusion with our reproduction of music. Yes Sir reproduction. Ten channels of processing the signal is chancy at best. Besides what program material was recorded in ten channels ?
  For me it is what I call "Humpty Dumpty" music. Just cannot put it together properly after all broken down, processed reconfigured and presented. When I go to Carnegie Hall no surround feel there. Upfront and personal to my ears.
  I'll stick with two channel played with a BSG QOL over any surround system out there. That's me, until I hear a surround system that does not have the violins coming from behind me.


charles

[Shakeydeal]

BTW, your system does look fairly complicated to my eye from the photo and don't you think SET is gimmicky compared to a state of the art immersive home theater that can do both movies and music?

I will probably get run out on a rail for saying so here, but I don't believe one system can be optimized for both home theater and two channel music. One or the other is going to suffer. Although this is a discussion for a different day and takes away from the intent of the thread, suffice it to say that even the constraints of physically locating the speakers for movies will not be the best location for two channel music. And vice versa. Then you get into the electronics aspect of it and it goes downhill from there pretty quickly.

I will just have to respectfully agree to disagree with you.

Shakey

[JohnR]

  For me it is what I call "Humpty Dumpty" music. Just cannot put it together properly after all broken down, processed reconfigured and presented.

Well, that describes stereo pretty well....  not only that but you mangle your signal by passing it through a BSG QOL (or did you only mention that because you are a dealer for it).

until I hear a surround system that does not have the violins coming from behind me.

Have you heard an Auro-3D system?

[AJinFLA]

More is better!

For immersion, yes. It's mandatory, not optional. I've already posted several links for physically, why.
For some folks who listen to certain types of music, or whose demands are not as close to "real" as others, then "frontal stereo" from the 40s is all that is needed.
For others, this is insufficient. Preference obviously plays a role here.
This point seems to be flying over many heads...you don't need to do a thing to your "pure" front stereo, by adding MCH speakers (say rears and front heights) and a adjustable MCH processor with an OFF button. You can have your cake and eat it too.
This shouldn't be that difficult, but I guess there are some entrenched views.

[brother love]

Be nice to see some measurements on this immersive audio system.  I know with multi-sub set-up with different heights, it can help to flatten lower frequency nulls/ peaks due to room loading, etc..  Not sure if that many multiple speakers would improve or degrade the overall sound.

I got to say that even if an immersive audio system sounded better, I couldn’t live with the ugliness of all those speakers, mike stands, wires everywhere, speaker “hemorrhoids” hanging off the walls. Not to mention all the space this type of system consumes! A good set of tower speakers are typically nice pieces of furniture & blend better with a room’s aesthetics. Just sayin’…

I went down the HT rabbit hole w/ a Paradigm 6.1 speaker system w/ Audyssey multi-EQ processing/ mike set-up AVR before my current 2 channel rig. There was no contest, the 2 channel system wins by a large margin in audio & video: greater clarity, no boomy/ bloated bass, more natural soundstage, not exaggerated with bizzare instrument placements. 

I’ve been reading Bruce Springsteen’s biography. When recording “The River”, he wanted a greater ambience/ live feeling to the sound; so they moved the mikes up above the band. Bruce got Jimmy Iovine (who didn’t work on this particular album) to listen to the entire album to which Iovine replied “When are you going to add the vocals” ?  Seems that the vocals were totally lost in trying to get that “concert sound”. 

[witchdoctor]

I will probably get run out on a rail for saying so here, but I don't believe one system can be optimized for both home theater and two channel music. One or the other is going to suffer. Although this is a discussion for a different day and takes away from the intent of the thread, suffice it to say that even the constraints of physically locating the speakers for movies will not be the best location for two channel music. And vice versa. Then you get into the electronics aspect of it and it goes downhill from there pretty quickly.

I will just have to respectfully agree to disagree with you.

Shakey

I understand, I do have a two channel desktop system I enjoy, I just wouldn't want to be limited to only two channel. My thread title was two channel sucks COMPARED to immersive audio, not that it sucks so bad I wouldn't use it at all.

[witchdoctor]

A. He is probably posting in this thread because it's an open forum for the exchange of ideas. If you start a thread hoping that everyone is of a like mind, you should probably moderate your own own personal website. Dissenting ideas are still allowed, right?

B. Where was the insult? I must have missed it.

Shakey

I think he could have made his point without referring to a "rats nest of cables".
I like my cables 

[GentleBender]

  I should have just stayed out of this thread. My bad. Probably the fact that I have less and less time to listen to my system and being very happy where it is now. Just happy every time I have a chance to sit back and listen to some tunes. Each person can do whatever they want, but not in my room. 

[witchdoctor]

Be nice to see some measurements on this immersive audio system.  I know with multi-sub set-up with different heights, it can help to flatten lower frequency nulls/ peaks due to room loading, etc..  Not sure if that many multiple speakers would improve or degrade the overall sound.

I got to say that even if an immersive audio system sounded better, I couldn’t live with the ugliness of all those speakers, mike stands, wires everywhere, speaker “hemorrhoids” hanging off the walls. Not to mention all the space this type of system consumes! A good set of tower speakers are typically nice pieces of furniture & blend better with a room’s aesthetics. Just sayin’…

I went down the HT rabbit hole w/ a Paradigm 6.1 speaker system w/ Audyssey multi-EQ processing/ mike set-up AVR before my current 2 channel rig. There was no contest, the 2 channel system wins by a large margin in audio & video: greater clarity, no boomy/ bloated bass, more natural soundstage, not exaggerated with bizzare instrument placements. 

I’ve been reading Bruce Springsteen’s biography. When recording “The River”, he wanted a greater ambience/ live feeling to the sound; so they moved the mikes up above the band. Bruce got Jimmy Iovine (who didn’t work on this particular album) to listen to the entire album to which Iovine replied “When are you going to add the vocals” ?  Seems that the vocals were totally lost in trying to get that “concert sound”. 

I cannot provide measurements, however here is a book that includes a LOT of measurements for surround sound NOT immersive audio but it may give you some data to work with:

https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers-Engineering/dp/0240520092/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1493655138&sr=8-1&keywords=floyd+toole+sound+reproduction

[AJinFLA]

Be nice to see some measurements on this immersive audio system.

What type of measurements and what would that tell you about the immersion?

I know with multi-sub set-up with different heights, it can help to flatten lower frequency nulls/ peaks due to room loading, etc..

Right, but that is often done in mono, thus has zero chance of spatial effects and immersion: https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/conferences/?elib=17270
Which may be fine for electronica fans, but not acoustic.

I got to say that even if an immersive audio system sounded better, I couldn’t live with the ugliness of all those speakers, mike stands, wires everywhere, speaker “hemorrhoids” hanging off the walls. Not to mention all the space this type of system consumes! A good set of tower speakers are typically nice pieces of furniture & blend better with a room’s aesthetics. Just sayin’…

All red herring. Mic stands?? In my system the rears are hidden in lamp shades and to go to something like this Auro, the front heights could be inwalls above the main towers.
I'm afraid all this backlash is of no substance whatsoever.

[witchdoctor]

Just like you can have a headphone system AND a 2 channel system you can have a 2 channel system AND an immersive audio system, why the stress?
 If you already have a 5.1 system all you need is a new receiver and 4 additional book shelf speakers (ideally the same brand as your bed channels).
My thread title does not say to trash whatever you use now, I am advocating adding to it.

[AJinFLA]

This idea had been around a while http://www.linkwitzlab.com/surround_system.htm



In my system, the preamp has dual outputs (like countless others do) and the "main" feeds the stereo LR, while the 2nd output feeds the MCH Logic7 processor. I do not use sides, just rears that are at around 110 degrees.
With something like Auro, I would only be interested in the front height channels, again very easily added without associated melodrama. especially since there is an "Off" button.