[John Casler]

While I am not a vinyl expert, I do have a "lot" of history "spinning records" over the years, and my nature is to look to some of the physics involved.

I tend to remember "obscurities" that many forget or let slip by the wayside.

To that end, I thought I might mention a "drawback/caution" about vinyl playback that could be hepful in getting the best sound, and adding longevity to you records.

NEVER PLAY A CUT MORE THAN ONCE IN A 24 HOUR PERIOD

Why?

Because vinyl "deforms" when it is played, and it takes several hours for it to "rebound" back to its original shape.

That is, in the groove of the record, are microscopic variations in the walls that the stylus/tip encounter and respond to, creating the vibrations that eventually become sound/music.

Many of these "variations" are so small that as the stylus hits them they deform.  They bend over and the very tops of them may even stretch, like little hairs.  If (as some of us do) you are A/B'ing, or you just like a cut and want to hear it again, and you play it multiple times, the deformed areas deform even further and can stretch beyond recovery, or even be sheared off

Now this only happens to the weakest and most delicate of the particles, but generally those are the ones that give us the detail and high frequencies.

Light tracking forces and higher compliance stylii will reduce this potential damage, but not eliminate it.

So there you have it.  Double plays are really only good in Baseball, and not for playing your vinyl rig

[Christof]

Learn something new here every day.  Does this mean that room temperature is a player in the vinyl experience as well?

[Ulas]

Vinyl "deforms" when it is played, and it takes several hours for it to "rebound" back to its original shape.

If you believe that you should also know that the heat generated by the friction of the stylus makes the deformation irreversible. For the very best sound from vinyl, new LP should be played only once.

[John Casler]

Vinyl "deforms" when it is played, and it takes several hours for it to "rebound" back to its original shape.

If you believe that you should also know that the heat generated by the friction of the stylus makes the deformation irreversible. For the very best sound from vinyl, new LP should be played only once.

Hi Ulas,

Hmmmm?  While it is plausable that friction might generate some heat, I wonder if the mass of the stylus assembly is high enough to do any damage.

Obviously there must be heat produced and exchanged, with new grooves being cool and the actual position at the moment  being succeptable to any "heat" produced.

I would estimate that the friction is too low, the mass is to low and the exposure time is not sufficient to a specific position to allow frictional heat to be a factor.

I know some Cuts that are "Smokin" , but I doubt the stylus will "Light My Fire" even on a cut of the same name.

Additionally, many don't know this, but as the platter spins, the air immediatley above it is also set in motion.  This creates air moving atop the platter in the same rotational motion.  This layer actually spins off the platter at the edges since the air is moving faster at the edges and this draws a column of air (downdraft) from above the platter "down and off the platter" continuosly.

This air movement would probably also add a cooling affect.

Which brings up another question?  To use a dust cover or not.

Why?  Because this column of air sucks all the dust into a downward spiral that hits the record and deposits the dust from the air above the record onto the surface.

This can be further amplified by the fact that the vinyl can become electrically charged with static electricity, which can attact the dust particles that are charged in their polar opposite

I could be wrong but I thing most airborne dust is Positively charged and the static is negatively charged (Don't quote me on that it could be just the opposite)

This is essentially the reason devices to drain the static charge away from the record, or pre-discharge it by using a device like a ZeroStat. to reduce the ionic electrical attraction.

A similar electrical interplay occurs in the body (but more complex) to keep you healthy.  No don't stick you finger in the Power Conditioner and expect a good result!!  

[Ulas]

I thought my rational for playing an LP no more than once was as convincing as yours for not repeating a track in 24 hours. I guess you didn’t notice the

Your vinyl groove deformation theory is a load of crapola.
1) The stylus contacts the wall of the groove at least half way where there is plenty of mass to withstand the transient side force.
2) The force vector is directed downwards at about 45 degrees towards the meat of the platter.
3) Any distortion on the inner wall of the groove will be counteracted by the distortion on the outer wall of the adjacent groove during the next revolution of the disk.

The best defense against groove wear is a clean, unworn stylus and proper tracking force.

The point is, why pollute the minds of vinyl newbies with old wives tales. Their heads are already filled with enough rubbish and ritual regarding CDs. Just let them just spin their LPs and enjoy the music.

[John Casler]

Your vinyl groove deformation theory is a load of crapola.
1) The stylus contacts the wall of the groove at least half way where there is plenty of mass to withstand the transient side force.
2) The force vector is directed downwards at about 45 degrees towards the meat of the platter.
3) Any distortion on the inner wall of the groove will be counteracted by the distortion on the outer wall of the adjacent groove during the next revolution of the disk.

The point is, why pollute the minds of vinyl newbies with old wives tales. Their heads are already filled with enough rubbish and ritual regarding CDs. Just let them just spin their LPs and enjoy the music....

Hi Ulas,

While I think I prefaced my "caution" by NOT claiming to be a vinyl expert, I find the evidence I saw in various publictions years ago rather convincing.

Firstly, it is not "my theory". it is something I read about many years ago

Second, I didn't state that multiple playing deformed the groove or the whole wall, but only specific delicate portions of the wall.

I have also noticed a "dulling" to a favorite cut after playing it multiple times.

So evidence and experience matched.

But let me challenge some of the "crapola" proof you assert:

1) The stylus contacts the wall of the groove at least half way where there is plenty of mass to withstand the transient side force.  

Just what does this mean?  Are you trying to say that there is never any deformation of the groove wall?  And if so please explain how much pressure it takes?  It seems that a simple internet search will yield the pressures experienced.

See below:

http://www.recordcollectorsguild.org/vinyl_microscopy4.html

Even though the tracking force of the stylus above is only 1.5 grams, this force is applied to such a small area that the pressure on the walls of the groove can be surprisingly high.
Measurement of the wear surfaces at higher power using an eyepiece micrometer gives a figure of 20 µm for the average width of the worn areas. Neglecting factors such as the elastic deformation of vinyl, the distribution of forces in a V-shaped groove and the accelerations at the stylus tip during tracking, simple calculation based on these figures gives a stylus pressure of 240 grams per square mm, or 340 pounds per square inch. The transient pressures exerted by a stylus tracing a heavily modulated groove during playback will of course be much greater, but beyond my ability to calculate.  

If this is accurate, you're saying that 340 pounds per square inch will not deform the more delicate portions of the groove wall?

2) The force vector is directed downwards at about 45 degrees towards the meat of the platter.

What does this mean?

Just where is the "meat" of the platter?

It would seem that you fail to realize that the record groove is moving.  This movement pulls the groove past the stylus, hitting it with some pretty good accellerations.  This "gauntlet" causes far more powerful forces than the force vector directed downward.

Tracking force is not the relevant force to consider here.  The downward (tracking) force is certainly the least offensive force here.

In fact, if the stylus was heavier and less compliant it would eventually "plow" the grooves clean and smooth, which would be the extreme of what I am conveying.

3) Any distortion on the inner wall of the groove will be counteracted by the distortion on the outer wall of the adjacent groove during the next revolution of the disk.  

This makes me think you might not understand what I am saying when I mention the deformation I read about years ago.

The damage I am talking about "cannot" be reversed, when the stylus passes into the next groove.

I certainly didn't mean that the "whole" groove wall deforms.  It means that the wall has undalations.  That is, it is not a straight smooth wall.  the walls look like (for lack of a better example) icing on a cake.

As the stylus passes by, portions of this "rough icing" cause it to move, but in doing so the stylus also exerts a force back on them that cause them to "deform".

These deformations will return to their original form in a short time, but if they are deformed again and again without adequate recovery time, they will reduce fidelity.

And while it is not my intention to "alarm" audiophiles, into not enjoying their music, I think the possiblities of this occuring are certainly real.

There is no arguing that regular and continuos play of vinyl can cause wear. The information I posted suggests that allowing the sufficient time for the deformations to rebound, will reduce that wear, rather than accellerate it.

The best defense against groove wear is a clean, unworn stylus and proper tracking force.  

While this is true, I would add never multiple play your favorite cuts, but to each his own.

[doug s.]

being a relative "old-timer", i am also familiar w/the info mr casler is talking about, & i'm w/him on this one.  i don't play the same record more than once a day.  tho, this dint hold true when i was in college...  

doug s.

[Ulas]

I guess I am an old-timer because I remember when the 33-1/3 RPM long-playing record was introduced. I’ve witnessed an ever-growing list of dos, don’ts, and myths grow surrounding LP care and playing. Your 24-hour rule is one of them. Just because a myth is repeated doesn’t make it true.

I think we old-timers should start a thread recounting every LP myth and tweak we can remember so the newbies can be fully immersed in the lore. I didn’t make up the one about the heat generated by stylus/groove friction. I remembered that from a popular theory that advised against letting the stylus run in the lead out groove for more than two revolutions because the tremendous heat buildup would scorch the stylus. I’m not making this up.

To overcome the limitations of the 24-hour rule, true audiophiles of the day stored their LPs in the freezer and, immediately prior to playing, flooded the surface of the LP with a freezing-cold alcohol mixture to act as a lubricant and to reduce heat build-up in the stylus. I’m not making this up. There were a number of recipes for wet-play solutions and the idea was very popular for a time. Those were the days before LP vacuums and hassle of removing and drying the soggy LP after each play discouraged a widespread following of the practice.

Hey, has anybody tried cryoed LP? How about shaving the perimeter of the LP to prevent vibrations created at the groove/stylus interface from being reflected back to the cartridge. I’m sure there’s a number of CD tweaks that could be applied to LPs.

[doug s.]

I guess I am an old-timer because I remember when the 33-1/3 RPM long-playing record was introduced. I’ve witnessed an ever-growing list of dos, don’ts, and myths grow surrounding LP care and playing. Your 24-hour rule is one of them. Just because a myth is repeated doesn’t make it true.

I think we old-timers should start a thread recounting every LP myth and tweak we can remember so the newbies can be fully immersed in the lore. I didn’t make up the one about the heat generated by stylus/groove friction ...

yes, i agree that there's a load of hooey out there.  but, the actual psi force & resultant heat generated by a stylus in a record groove still make sense to me.  no, i don't need to go to extremes of freezing records, etc...  and on rare occasions, i *have* actually played the same record again, after a recent playing.  so i am not obsessed, i yust use what common sense tells me is reasonable.  if it doesn't seem reasonable to you, that's ok.

ymmv,

doug s.me

[Dan Driscoll]

I don't recall the exact details, but one I've heard is that the stylus generates so much heat that vinyl actually melts and accumulates on the leading face of the diamond. The recommended procedure for removing this build-up was a few strokes with a very fine emory cloth.  IIRC, the person I heard this from said he learned it from a Linn representative.

[nathanm]

I've accidentally left the tonearm in the leadout groove for hours on end on occasion.  Luckily I caught it in time before the entire turntable burst into flames.  However, I was not quick enough to salvage the record, which was  becoming molten and dripping off the edges of the platter.  I quickly doused the needle in my nearby blacksmith's water barrel.  The stylus was severely deformed, but a few careful whacks with a hammer and it was good to go again.  The vinyl will never play again, but I keep it around to remind me of the dangers we all face as audiophiles; how close to tragedy we can come in the pursuit of analog reproduction.

[doug s.]

I've accidentally left the tonearm in the leadout groove for hours on end on occasion.  Luckily I caught it in time before the entire turntable burst into flames.  However, I was not quick enough to salvage the record, which was  becoming molten and dripping off the edges of the platter.  I quickly doused the needle in my nearby blacksmith's water barrel.  The stylus was severely deformed, but a few careful whacks with a hammer and it was good to go again.  The vinyl will never play again, but I keep it aro ...

     
seriously, this has happened to me once or twice.  never had any real issues about it, other than mild disappointment about a bit of excess needle wear.  of course, i am not wery concerned about any sonic degradation of the leadout groove...  

doug s.

[Ulas]

Many of these "variations" are so small that as the stylus hits them they deform. They bend over and the very tops of them may even stretch, like little hairs.

Hey John,
I pulled out an old test record and took a look at the grooves of the 15,000Hz band with a stereo microscope. The magnification was only 45x but I could see the ripples and wiggles in the groove pretty well and I didn’t see any hair like structures that were likely to be bent, pushed over, worn off, or distorted in any way. Unfortunately, the ‘scope doesn’t have a camera mount so I couldn’t get a picture. Perhaps you have a photo that clearly shows the hair like structures you are talking about.

[djbnh]

Can't resist a bad pun: those "hair like structures" must be "silly-AH!"  

[nathanm]

I didn’t see any hair like structures that were likely to be bent, pushed over, worn off, or distorted in any way.

That's because you wore them all off already you silly person!  If your record was a cat it'd look like this:

Or maybe you had the Mono switch engaged on the microscope?  Were both lenses in the correct polarity?

No but seriously, has anyone considered how we're going to break this sad news to the DJs?  Oh man they're gonna be so pissed!  

[John Casler]

Hey John,
I pulled out an old test record and took a look at the grooves of the 15,000Hz band with a stereo microscope. The magnification was only 45x but I could see the ripples and wiggles in the groove pretty well and I didn’t see any hair like structures that were likely to be bent, pushed over, worn off, or distorted in any way. Unfortunately, the ‘scope doesn’t have a camera mount so I couldn’t get a picture. Perhaps you have a photo that clearly shows the hair like structures you are talking about.

Hi Ulas,

Sorry I don't have any pics (I saw this over 20 years ago) and my description probably could have been better.

The pics I saw actually looked like "clumpy icing" on a cake and the stretched (supposedly deformed) structures looked like the icing if you moved over it with a flat knife and lifted the knife, making a little curl (much like a whitecap curl on a wave)

You get the idea.

There are plenty of "groove" photos on the web, but few are "powerful enough" to show this.  Below are a few I found, but they too are not very powerful.





Hope those show a bit.  I also found this paragraph from a site that works on "restoring" damaged vinyl from years gone by. For anyone wanting to read the whole article the URL is below the quote:

Be careful, though: if the record is an odd size, color, or weight or smells different from an average record (we're serious!), you may have an acetate or transcription recording and should proceed with caution. These one-off shellac disks or "lacquers" have a record surface composed of a very soft compound and cannot tolerate even slight abuse or harsh cleaners. In addition, remember that vinyl is an elastic material. Each time you play a record, you deform the groove walls. If you play a record repeatedly within a 24-hour period, the plastic doesn't have an opportunity to "relax" or flow back to its original shape, resulting in permanent damage

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FGL/is_8_19/ai_104478055

If that helps

[Ulas]

Hi John,
It would take a lot of force and possibly a bit of heat to push vinyl around like cake frosting. While it is certainly possible to intentionally or accidentally deform a vinyl groove as you describe, for example, by dragging an ice pick through it, I doubt it can happen after two or more plays within 24 hours with a clean LP, pristine stylus, proper tracking force, etc.

In the photo that shows the LP groove after 200 plays with Stylast, do you think those 200 plays were spread out over 200 days? If not, shouldn’t we see signs of significant damage?

[djbnh]

On a more constructive and inquisitive note, I wonder what persons should do, let's say, when A-B'ing TTs and want to use the same vinyl in the evaluation, to keep evaluation parameters similar? If the concept being discussed here were used, it seems one would wait 24 hours to play the same piece of vinyl to evaluate the similarities/differences in the TTs. That seems problematic on a # of levels.

[JoshK]

I am very skeptical that the amount of heat produced by friction of the stylus over the groove will remain on the vinyl for more than a momentary amount of time.   Even if it was enough to cause the vinyl to melt at the surface some micro units deep that heat is so localized that it would diffuse quite rapidly and thus the vinyl would be like before, ready to play again in a very short period of time.   Until I see some real data suggesting that the velocity of heat diffusion in a vinyl sustance is quite inert I am going to assume this is hogwash.

[nathanm]

That Cardas\Stan Ricker test LP said it was pressed on some kind of super-hard vinyl for repeat-play burn-in friendliness.   Wait a minute, we've got 180G vinyl, remastered releases, 5.1 re-releases, SACD re-releases hmmmm...now with "Hard Vinyl" releases we could issue yet another pressing of Dark Side Of the Moon! YESSS! Kick ass!