[Ulas]

Hi dgbnh,
If you’re asking me, I say play the LP as many times as you want as long as the LP is clean, your stylus is clean and not worn out, and your tracking force is correct. I don’t buy the 1 play in 24hr rule.

[John Casler]

Hi John,
It would take a lot of force and possibly a bit of heat to push vinyl around like cake frosting. While it is certainly possible to intentionally or accidentally deform a vinyl groove as you describe, for example, by dragging an ice pick through it, I doubt it can happen after two or more plays within 24 hours with a clean LP, pristine stylus, proper tracking force, etc.

In the photo that shows the LP groove after 200 plays with Stylast, do you think those 200 plays were spread out over 200 days? If not, shouldn’t we see signs of significant damage?

Ulas,

You don't seem to read what I wrote.  

I didn't say the stylus "pushed the vinyl around like cake frosting", I said in some of the photos I saw, it "looked" like cake frosting.

And the pics are not to illustrate any of my suggestions, they are not magnified enough.

They were only to give you some pics of record grooves.

And I didn't say that the "groove" is deformed, I said small portions of the groove "wall" are thought to deform.

Go ahead and play your cuts multiple times, they're yours to enjoy.

[lcrim]

Even before I saw this thread,  several months ago I noticed some degradation of quality on frequently played tracks.  So I asked Kevin Barrett @ KAB
I was cautioned about playing the same track again w/o allowing the vinyl a bit of time to rest.  Every play degrades the surface slightly.  There is heat generated and the groove walls do deform slightly.  I think that the 24 hour limit might be pushing things but yeah, clean vinyl, clean stylus proper setup and give the records some time to rest before playing them again.

[PJ]

What about DJ's when they are cueing up a record?

Not only is the vinyl played once, but the first beat of a record may be played 20 times or more within a matter of minutes.

Most DJ's dont report significantly audible record wear for a couple of years, so long as a decent setup cart is used and the records are regularly cleaned.

[doug s.]

What about DJ's when they are cueing up a record?

Not only is the vinyl played once, but the first beat of a record may be played 20 times or more within a matter of minutes.

Most DJ's dont report significantly audible record wear for a couple of years, so long as a decent setup cart is used and the records are regularly cleaned.

when do dj's cue up a record on their audiophile rig, go sit in the sweet spot, close their eyes & relax for 20 minutes?  

doug s.

[Mike Doyle]

...within the groove. Imagine the lbs/sq inch of pressure and the careening and vibrating stylus tip ... play it again and you will be lopping off the microridges of vinyl ,often hairlike in shape which are important to detail of music...Wait at least 72 hours before replay..." This was sage
advice given to me thirty years ago by audio mentors. Made sense to me.

[PJ]

What about DJ's when they are cueing up a record?

Not only is the vinyl played once, but the first beat of a record may be played 20 times or more within a matter of minutes.

Most DJ's dont report significantly audible record wear for a couple of years, so long as a decent setup cart is used and the records are regularly cleaned.

when do dj's cue up a record on their audiophile rig, go sit in the sweet spot, close their eyes & relax for 20 minutes?  

doug s.

Few would do this, but all would record their mixes and play them back.

A few would play them back on decent setups (mines not top end, but it's pretty decent), and most do care, at least to some extent about sound quality.

Few would care about the sound quality to the extent that users of these forums do, but given the cost of vinyl ($US10 per song), and the fact that DJ's probably wear them out 50x faster than anyone here (faster if they scratch), to most DJ's vinyl wear is a real issue and I have never heard any of them mention such a thing.

(That and from a pure thermodynamics point of view it makes no sense).

[doug s.]

Few would do this, but all would record their mixes and play them back.

A few would play them back on decent setups (mines not top end, but it's pretty decent), and most do care, at least to some extent about sound quality.

Few would care about the sound quality to the extent that users of these forums do, but given the cost of vinyl ($US10 per song), and the fact that DJ's probably wear them out 50x faster than anyone here (faster if they scratch), to most DJ's vinyl wear is a real issue and I have never heard any of them mention such a thing.

(That and from a pure thermodynamics point of view it makes no sense).

i stand by my prior comments - most dj's wouldn't know whether their records were severely worn or not.  and i must disagree w/you about whether or not it makes sense from "a pure thermodynamics point of view..."  it makes PERFECT sense.  studies have confirmed the heat & force generated by a stylus on a record groove.

ymmv,

doug s.

[PJ]

Most DJ's wouldnt care about minor degredations, but would care about major ones. I think you are forgetting just how much these guys spend on vinyl.

The heat generated would also rapidly be distributed about the massive weight of the record. The energy that is released, although it may result in a large local temperature increase, is such a small value it would dissipate almost instantly.

[Digital]

While I don’t buy into the “once in 24-hours only’’ theory, I do feel that the needle must get bloody hot during it’s washboard trip through a typical record groove.  I have absolutely no idea how long a typical LP’s groove is from start to finish, but I suspect it’s over a kilometer?  So, just imagine, rubbing [any] super-hard object, non-stop, over a microscopically rough surface for 20 minutes strait – that must build up some serious heat.  I wonder if anyone has ever pointed a non-contact, heat-sensing device at a quality stylus after it has just finished playing an LP, in order to record its temperature?  Useless trivia perhaps, but curious from a purely scientific point of view nonetheless.

Andrew D.

[andyr]

That Cardas\Stan Ricker test LP said it was pressed on some kind of super-hard vinyl for repeat-play burn-in friendliness.   Wait a minute, we've got 180G vinyl, remastered releases, 5.1 re-releases, SACD re-releases hmmmm...now with "Hard Vinyl" releases we could issue yet another pressing of Dark Side Of the Moon! YESSS! Kick ass!

Hi, Nathan,

I believe that's the benefit of "Virgin Vinyl" which MoFi started to use 20 or so years ago and I think most audiophile LPs continue to use.  Apart from being translucent (so if you hold the LP up to a light you can see it), because the vinyl formulation did not include any shaved, re-used vinyl particles, it was more flexible and was amenable to quick replays.

Regards,

Andy

[PJ]

While I don’t buy into the “once in 24-hours only’’ theory, I do feel that the needle must get bloody hot during it’s washboard trip through a typical record groove.  I have absolutely no idea how long a typical LP’s groove is from start to finish, but I suspect it’s over a kilometer?  So, just imagine, rubbing [any] super-hard object, non-stop, over a microscopically rough surface for 20 minutes strait – that must build up some serious heat.  I wonder if anyone has ever pointed a non-contact, heat-sensing  ...

Whilst it would get hot, I imagine it would reach it's maximum temp after several seconds, and not get any hotter. The high pressure, low surface area would generate a large amount of heat in a small area, but this would rapidly be dissipated through the relatively large mass of the other components.

[hifitommy]

mostly, non-scientific references have been made.  we have all read some scientific data about this subject.  i believe i read that the temp of the vinyl goes to about 800 degrees F momentarily and the stylus pressure is something on the order  of 4000 psi.  

i refrain from replay on the same day but if several hours have passed, i MIGHT play the same cut over.  i also dont replay often so as not to ruin a piece of music for myself.  we've ALL done that.  

i quickly scanned the content of THIS:

http://www.vandenhul.com/artpap/phono_faq.htm#50

and didnt see any data but surely there is something to learn on this page.  it would be interesting to have a dialog with AJ or have him direct us to the proper data.