The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful

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JLM

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The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« on: 31 Oct 2016, 11:42 am »
After 45 or so years being into stereo/audio I have opinions.  Over the years my system has gotten smaller, cheaper, and simpler.  No longer want (or need to thanks to technology advancements) spend the price of a new car on audio.  I'll admit that I'm not yet down to the Cheap & Cheerful guidelines, but I enjoy the spirit of it very much.  So much of audio is an issue of the kings new robe (no one wanting to admit they can't hear or don't like the latest promoted product). 

Many aspects of this pastime make little/no difference to my ears or are bullish*t.  The very concept of Cheap & Cheerful helps weed out the extraneous wastes of time, money, and worry.  These are what come to my mind:

1.)  Focusing on the system and not the music.  The system is simply a means to an end (the music, duh).  The Cheap & Cheerful crowd seem to know this better than most in our community.  With Spotify and Tidal, a whole world of music is available for $10/20 per month, marvelous. 

2.)  Crummy rooms.  Most overbuy gear for the given room (an integral part of any speaker based system).  Dedicated rooms are often "spares", so are small or poorly shaped.  Shared rooms have highly compromised layouts and/or hours of use.  Few are acoustically isolated.  Some dedicated rooms are overblown with poorly understood treatments.  If you don't have a good room don't get frustrated, consider headphones, seriously.

3.)  Poor layouts.  Talking here about speakers/listening location.  I'm a huge fan of near-field.  Anything else sounds like vague sound coming from the other end of the room versus images snapping into place.  Helps speakers perform as intended and takes the room out of the equation.  This is how our recordings were made.  Again the Cheap & Cheerful gang seems to understand this by default (not having huge rooms to start with).

4.)  Stupid speaker designs.  Dipoles and vertical arrays come to the top of my list.  Our speakers need to follow the example used to make the recordings.  Very few sound sources are vertically oriented dipoles or arrays.  I prefer precise imaging to "walls of sound".  Vertical arrays can't image vertically and follow any sane budget use super cheap (low quality) drivers.  And yet again, these stupid designs are typically more expensive, so score another point for the C & C crowd.

5.)  Fancy cables.  Yes I've occasionally heard a significant difference, but the money is much better invested elsewhere.  What's the wire inside of your walls/pieces made of?  Why connect 10 gauge power cords to a house system with 14 gauge wiring?  Almost no gear has shielded internal wiring/components.  Best to use the power cord provided and shop for the rest from Monoprice/Parts Express.  Simply buy shielded single ended interconnects and speaker cable of the right gauge for your nominal impedance/length. 

6.)  Vinyl.  This is purely personal.  I can't stand surface noise and can't hear through it.  Music on vinyl is expensive, a crap shoot to find it in good shape, and selection too limiting.  I'm getting old and want more convenience and less hobbyist interaction.  Vinyl now-a-days skews to the gear, not the music. 

7.)  Power conditioners.  Unless you live with a very old, ratty utility district I doubt you'll hear much of a difference (I couldn't in a 60 year old house that had horrible wiring).  The only time I've heard a noticeable improvement was after the 80 year old factory next door that I was at shut down for the night.  Try before you buy.  Again don't cave to peer pressure.

8.)  Not enough invested in the speakers.  With rapid computer related advancements it's hard to justify putting serious money into sources/DAC's, let alone vinyl/tape.  Amplification serves the speakers, which have the hardest job to do being the only transducer in the system and has to work under unknown circumstances.  Speakers are the biggest variable in system performance.  I applaud the increased popularity of powered/active speakers, even those with built-in DAC's and wireless connections. 

Feel free to contribute.

mcgsxr

Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #1 on: 31 Oct 2016, 11:58 am »
I cycle up and down in my investment in my system and have tried a number of approaches. 

High efficiency speakers with single ended tube amps.
Lower efficiency planars with high power pro amps.
Currently enjoying mid efficiency (~90dB) speakers with 25wpc amp or 85wpc integrated.

Purely digital listener here, been in the PC server/streamer camp for well over a decade now (13 years?).  Ran vinyl in my youth as a DJ, but am with JLM on surface noise.  I will add supreme convenience and the ability to run multiple setups concurrently as a bonus to the server/streamer approach.

My room is partially (?) dedicated.  It is a multi use basement space, but with some attention paid to sound transmission and is treated (DIY).

All my gear is used, and that is the way I have chased audio for many years now.  In USD, the overall value of my currentl setup is under 2K for sure.  My speakers (older Focal Electra's at present) would represent the highest MSRP of any piece.

I will admit I could spend some time cleaning up my library, but the ability to slice and dice it in spite of the duplicates has me reconsidering spending any time doing so!

Agree that DAC tech soldiers on, but would also say that good is good.  So folks might opt to feel good about investing in a good DAC and enjoying it for 3-5 years.  I do!

I admit to having some cables in my setup that qualify as "audio candy", but why sell them at a loss after I hunted them down used in the first place?  Could I have avoided that spend altogether?  Possibly, but a hobby is a hobby!

I have more invested in music that I do in gear.  That has been true for about the last 20 years of my ~30 year audio journey.

Bob2

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #2 on: 31 Oct 2016, 01:12 pm »
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« Last Edit: 1 Nov 2016, 09:49 am by Bob2 »

bacobits1

Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #3 on: 31 Oct 2016, 01:51 pm »
Yup you guys bring up good points and I'm right where you are now. I'm old and a lot more educated!
The past 2 years I've made some modest changes so my investment goes up and down. Been into it for 40 years too. The older we get the more practical we get and realize you need not to spend stupid money to get there. In the past I have had the more expensive equipment only to change things out all the time anyway. Reviews do that and the purpose is to generate sales and they do. This foolishness goes on and the credibility of these reviewers/magazines had been going down (I stopped them all). I buy used for the most part and always have. I keep things as simple as possible. It matters what I think of the sound and no one else.

I'm into vinyl because I have it it's in pristine condition and it's all older and different music I have on digital. I stream Spotify and use CD's that's it. Will never pay for Tidal just because who owns it. They got more than enough blig AFAIC. Plus their individual music for the most part sucks! Don't get me started on MQA and the associated BS.

I read about 34k Phono Pre's and 10k DAC's , come on, to each his own of course. Just how many ways can you make a cable?
There is a lot of good stuff out there at reasonable costs. You need to shop carefully. B&M stores is not the way to go anymore. I can get into specifics here but won't to protect the innocent.

I do a lot of homework reading,  I don't think much of any of the reviewers (well a few) print or on web sites. I get more from individuals exchanges on the boards.

So count me among the "cheap and cheerful".   :thumb:


SamA

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #4 on: 31 Oct 2016, 02:10 pm »
Cheap and Cheerful just got better here at the ranch with the addition of the Amazon Eco Dot and the subscription based Amazon Music Unlimited for just $3.99 a month. A world of music for just pennies a day. And I'm back in the cultural loop with the ability to now listen to every new release the day it is out. Amazing.

Sure, Amazon Music Unlimited isn't audiophile quality, but it's more than good enough while doing kitchen duty, reading the morning paper, doing backyard chores (with wireless headphones), etc. And with he 3.5 mm audio output to my "big boy" system it does sound reasonable. Very reasonable.

But, again, at $3.99 a month, it gives me a front-row seat to a world a music and if it saves me from making one bad purchase a month for adding to the music server it's worth its weight in gold.

mcgsxr

Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #5 on: 31 Oct 2016, 02:12 pm »
I know there are a lot of better setups out there.  I think I have determined the best ROI for me, and am now playing with that dynamic.

Most people do the same, but I think the $ values change.

When I had more $ invested, I did enjoy the music a lot.  I simply find that I still do.

Perhaps that is the sound of my audiophile card being burnt on the front lawn?  :flame:

I don't think so.  I am not saying that I will shift to MP3's and a bluetooth speaker.   I simply found a great setup for $ I was willing to part with, and that makes me happy.  Just like everyone else here.

S Clark

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #6 on: 31 Oct 2016, 02:38 pm »
Wow.  JLM, let's just say that we don't agree on many of your 8 points.  "Stupid speaker designs"???? Your allegiance to small self powered speakers is well documented, but to call other designs stupid is just... 
There are those around here whose opinions I hold in high regard, many that I have found helpful, and a hand full that I ignore.   
However, we agree on power conditioners- but then much of my stuff runs on batteries. 

JohnR

Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #7 on: 31 Oct 2016, 02:46 pm »
Open baffle, line arrays, and vinyl can all easily be Cheap and Cheerful.

To me, a large part of what "cheap and cheerful" involves is a willingness to try new things, and provide a different perspective to the idea that you need to always spend more to get satisfaction from the hobby. It's about being open minded, not about closing things off.

thunderbrick

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #8 on: 31 Oct 2016, 02:59 pm »
After 45 or so years being into stereo/audio I have opinions. 

5.)  Fancy cables.  Yes I've occasionally heard a significant difference, but the money is much better invested elsewhere.  What's the wire inside of your walls/pieces made of?   
 

OK, if you've heard a significant difference, who cares what's in the walls?   As with regular components, we all make value judgements ("much better invested......").  If it's not worth it to you, who's to say it's not valuable to someone else?  Now I'd agree on things like cable risers, but that's getting pretty far out on the fringe

I buy mostly used, and I experiment a lot.  I focus on items whose value is proven over time, and have several pieces well over 30 years old.  THAT is the ultimate C&C!

Vinyl?  I can deal with some surface noise but if the SQ comes through the noise, I simply hunt down copies in better condition.  Half the fun is trolling through used record stores and flea markets.   

I've invested enough in my system that I don't want compromises in music source.  I won't listen to Xm radio at all, because I KNOW what I am getting is a shadow of the original.  I'd rather do without. 

Lastly, if the house were to burn down I'd start all over with Maggie 1.7s and a 35+ year old Moscode amp.  Immersion in good music and good SQ is my most important therapy.




thunderbrick

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #9 on: 31 Oct 2016, 03:00 pm »
Open baffle, line arrays, and vinyl can all easily be Cheap and Cheerful.

To me, a large part of what "cheap and cheerful" involves is a willingness to try new things, and provide a different perspective to the idea that you need to always spend more to get satisfaction from the hobby. It's about being open minded, not about closing things off.

What John said.     :thumb:

JLM

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #10 on: 31 Oct 2016, 03:50 pm »
I was hoping for more contribution and less criticism.

S Clark,

BTW my "babies" are floor-standing single driver speakers that I commissioned 12 years ago (but compact active speakers do have distinct advantages in many instances) and I tried battery power for amp/DAC years ago but another waste of money in my 1950's house and in the near ideal house we built 12 years ago.  I do have strong opinions about speakers.


JohnR,

IMO line arrays and vinyl would of any quality would be really stretch applying the term audiophile to within the Cheap & Cheerful guidelines. 


thunderbrick,

Again, in the Cheap & Cheerful world there's little room available for after market power cords.

thunderbrick

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #11 on: 31 Oct 2016, 04:01 pm »
I'm not claiming aftermarket PCs have a place in C&C.  I've tried a few and sold off most.

I'm simply saying that if it makes a difference (and I've tried many items that don't), then keep it.  If there's another change that is more cost-effective, then go with that one.  What's the big deal?  This is a hobby, not brain surgery.

I've been in audio for just over 50 years, and thanks to a GAS member, just found the same model preamp and my father bought in 1957.  Already had the same TT and 3-way speaker he started with, and one day I'll recap it and fire it up.  See just how much things have changed.

Wind Chaser

Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #12 on: 31 Oct 2016, 04:15 pm »
Jeff,

It is only my opinion, but I think your ears and your attitude have compromised your insight.

Point 1 - partly true. Obviously you can't listen to gear without music; music is the only reason why people buy the best gear they can afford.

Point 2 - partly true. Crummy rooms is an overstatement. Most rooms are not ideal, but they aren't so bad as to be disqualified from hosting a system designed for serious listening.

Point 3 - this is a matter of preference. Like you, I prefer a near field arrangement, however preferences are only preferences.

Point 4 - wow, just wow!  :duh:

Point 5 - a system as a whole is only a strong as the weakest link. Crap cables are like crap components. If you can't hear the difference, your ears are wearing down.

Point 6 - yes it is personal, but those who like vinyl say it's all about sound quality.

Point 7 - peer pressure? That's a strange way of looking at it. Try putting a medical isolation transformer in front of your DAC and get back to me.

Point 8 - couldn't disagree with you more. This is like saying tires are more important than the engine and the transmission doesn't make a difference.  :roll:

cujobob

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #13 on: 31 Oct 2016, 04:39 pm »



2.)  Crummy rooms.  Most overbuy gear for the given room (an integral part of any speaker based system).  Dedicated rooms are often "spares", so are small or poorly shaped.  Shared rooms have highly compromised layouts and/or hours of use.  Few are acoustically isolated.  Some dedicated rooms are overblown with poorly understood treatments.  If you don't have a good room don't get frustrated, consider headphones, seriously.

Cujobob: You can take care of poor rooms rather easily if you know what you're doing but you have to select the right speakers and treatments. It is essential to have speakers with good directivity.

3.)  Poor layouts.  Talking here about speakers/listening location.  I'm a huge fan of near-field.  Anything else sounds like vague sound coming from the other end of the room versus images snapping into place.  Helps speakers perform as intended and takes the room out of the equation.  This is how our recordings were made.  Again the Cheap & Cheerful gang seems to understand this by default (not having huge rooms to start with).

Cujobob: This comes down to personal preference IMO. You can make most rooms work.

4.)  Stupid speaker designs.  Dipoles and vertical arrays come to the top of my list.  Our speakers need to follow the example used to make the recordings.  Very few sound sources are vertically oriented dipoles or arrays.  I prefer precise imaging to "walls of sound".  Vertical arrays can't image vertically and follow any sane budget use super cheap (low quality) drivers.  And yet again, these stupid designs are typically more expensive, so score another point for the C & C crowd.

Cujobob: line arrays lower distortion because the individual drivers aren't forced into doing very much. Inexpensive drivers CAN be very good but it depends on how cheap we are talking and how well they are designed. I enjoy a variety of speaker designs, but it is difficult to make many types work in small rooms.

5.)  Fancy cables.  Yes I've occasionally heard a significant difference, but the money is much better invested elsewhere.  What's the wire inside of your walls/pieces made of?  Why connect 10 gauge power cords to a house system with 14 gauge wiring?  Almost no gear has shielded internal wiring/components.  Best to use the power cord provided and shop for the rest from Monoprice/Parts Express.  Simply buy shielded single ended interconnects and speaker cable of the right gauge for your nominal impedance/length. 

Cujobob: You don't have to spend a lot to have good cabling. The differences heard will likely be from engineering differences instead of quality differences from materials (unless comparing quality cables to REALLY poor quality cables)

7.)  Power conditioners.  Unless you live with a very old, ratty utility district I doubt you'll hear much of a difference (I couldn't in a 60 year old house that had horrible wiring).  The only time I've heard a noticeable improvement was after the 80 year old factory next door that I was at shut down for the night.  Try before you buy.  Again don't cave to peer pressure.

Cujobob: This...depends, IMO. With Class D, specifically, it is very important but many devices are total garbage IMO.

8.)  Not enough invested in the speakers.  With rapid computer related advancements it's hard to justify putting serious money into sources/DAC's, let alone vinyl/tape.  Amplification serves the speakers, which have the hardest job to do being the only transducer in the system and has to work under unknown circumstances.  Speakers are the biggest variable in system performance.  I applaud the increased popularity of powered/active speakers, even those with built-in DAC's and wireless connections. 

Cujobob: speakers are most everything.

luckyguy

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #14 on: 31 Oct 2016, 04:39 pm »
There are over 1500 condiments, spices and herbs all to titillate our sense of taste within the worldwide population of the human specie.  Good thing we have the commonality of only 2 ears and a sense of singularity when it comes to expressing what we know as "good sound".  Of course I do add an extra pinch of salt to what ever I eat so I'm a maverick, no? :thumb:

fredgarvin

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #15 on: 31 Oct 2016, 04:53 pm »
I jumped off of the merry-gear-round some time back. I agree at least partially with your points. I have seen many pics here of large, expensive systems shoehorned into rooms that couldn't possibly be allowing the quality of sound possible from those components. Especially the speakers.

I share your thoughts on vinyl as well. Probably the hardest thing to achieve in C and C is finding speakers that can meet the system cost barrier and still sound high end.

I am intrigued these days with idea of small components that deliver big. It doesn't work for eye candy though.

FasterThanEver

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #16 on: 31 Oct 2016, 05:43 pm »
After 45 or so years being into stereo/audio I have opinions.  Over the years my system has gotten smaller, cheaper, and simpler.  No longer want (or need to thanks to technology advancements) spend the price of a new car on audio.  I'll admit that I'm not yet down to the Cheap & Cheerful guidelines, but I enjoy the spirit of it very much.  So much of audio is an issue of the kings new robe (no one wanting to admit they can't hear or don't like the latest promoted product). 

Feel free to contribute.

Thanks for a thought provoking post that is relevant to my current situation. I'm fine with your expressing your point of view.  It helps that I agree with most of it.   :)

I started a project in July to replace all our computer and audio gear and a TV.  The newest gear being replaced is over 4 years old (computers), some is 7-9 years old and my main speakers are nearly 20 years old.

In every case, I try to calibrate what I need to spend to get the functionality and sound quality that I want.  So far, I've spent less on the new stuff than I spend years ago on the old gear.

I don't want unacceptable sound quality but having an overall system that is easy to use and not intrusive matters too.  Simplicity is an important attribute this time around.

I don't expect to replace the new gear for a long time. (7-10 years for the PCs, 15 years for the audio gear.)

Powered speakers? I haven't had an unpowered speaker in the house for nearly 20 years.

Near field? Love it.  I do most of my listening with a nearfield setup.

Fancy wires?  I never was a believer.
Vinyl?  I was happy to be rid of LPs and calling them vinyl changes nothing.
Tubes? Dittto.
Room treatment?  I found good speaker and listener positions for my main system nearly 20 years ago.  Lots of books for dispersion in that room.  In my home office, The speakers are well off the desk and I mitigated the effect of a close to wall placement for the rear ported speakers.

I'm still trying to decide on new desktop speakers to replace Audioengine A5s.  I'll probably spend 2-3 times as much on the new speakers as I did on the A5s 9 years ago. It matters.

I'll spend 1/5 as much or less as my main speakers and amps cost on their replacement.

Successful C&C purchases so far include $ 12.50 headphones that sound great on my exercise walks and an Audioquest Dragonfly red that produces good sound and always works as Windows 10 updates itself and changes its behavior.

JLM

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #17 on: 1 Nov 2016, 10:41 am »
Windy,

I'd be surprised if you did agree with me on many of the starting points.  I ran battery integrated amp and DAC for awhile and noticed no improvement (as did other ACers) and added a linear power supply to my DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core DAC/preamp/DSP to very little effect (but my power situation is nearly ideal already).  As stated power aberrations are local phenomenons and thus the need for conditioning. 


But the point is, going the Cheap & Cheerful route automatically eliminates much of what I find to be a little value anyway.  That happenstance is part of what makes it "cheerful" to me.  It's a great time to be a frugal audiophile.

Early B.

Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #18 on: 1 Nov 2016, 11:46 am »
It's a great time to be a frugal audiophile.

The Cheap & Cheerful section is cool, but let's not confuse or compare the items in it to "audiophile" quality sound or gear. High fidelity has a steep price, and there's no circumventing that reality. And if you can't hear the differences among components in vastly different price categories, don't draw the conclusion that your cheap gear is just as good. It isn't. Does one need to spend a gazillion bucks on a pair of speakers? Nope. But they're gonna need to spend several times more than a "cheap & cheerful" price to achieve "audiophile sound quality" status.

Sure, sound quality in music is subjective, but so is every other art form. Comparing cheap & cheerful gear to audiophile gear is like comparing an 8 yr. old's crayola drawing to artists whose work is displayed in major art galleries.

JLM

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Re: The Joys of Cheap & Cheerful
« Reply #19 on: 1 Nov 2016, 12:57 pm »
The Cheap & Cheerful section is cool, but let's not confuse or compare the items in it to "audiophile" quality sound or gear. High fidelity has a steep price, and there's no circumventing that reality. And if you can't hear the differences among components in vastly different price categories, don't draw the conclusion that your cheap gear is just as good. It isn't. Does one need to spend a gazillion bucks on a pair of speakers? Nope. But they're gonna need to spend several times more than a "cheap & cheerful" price to achieve "audiophile sound quality" status.

Sure, sound quality in music is subjective, but so is every other art form. Comparing cheap & cheerful gear to audiophile gear is like comparing an 8 yr. old's crayola drawing to artists whose work is displayed in major art galleries.


Ouch!  Where's the love baby?

Not saying Cheap & Cheerful gear competes head to head with $1 million systems.  But trying to define "audiophile quality" can't be done either.  It's not based on how much money is spent or personal experience.  Agree that in general cheap gear shouldn't sound as good as expensive gear, but even that statement is painting with a wide brush.  Often the cheaper/smaller systems reveal fewer "sins of commission" which can be more onerous than "sins of omission."  Everyone has their own idea of where their point of diminishing returns is that provides the greatest owner/listener satisfaction.  Many of us after traveling the audio road for decades have found satisfaction by not chasing the merry-go-round.