[OzarkTom]

My recommendations for a C&C system today.
Musical Fidelity A1 integrated
AR turntable with AR tonearm
Horn speakers with no crossover.(Rex is using the Decwaare DNA Horns) Plans-$19.95, parts $300

The AR tt beats the SOTA, VPI, Linn, Oracle, and Pink Triangle. If the platter rings when tapped, you get bigger soundstage and better dynamics. I would never had compared these tables, but a Linn dealer from Dallas said I had better compare, the AR beat his Linn. We used a Sumiko The Arm with a Koetsu Black cartridge on all tables. Another good option for C&C is a B&O turntable, good sound for the bucks. Going for around 50 bucks on Ebay.

I had a customer that built a 75 pound turntable that was totally inert, it was the worst sounding tt I have ever heard.

A1 integrated is Class A, can be had on Ebay for $200-300. I compared it to a Threshold 400A amp and Spectral DMC-10 Pre with Kimber silver interconnects. IC's were more money than the A1, the A1 was better.

Records? I starterd selling those out in the mid 80's. All of my customers would pick the CD player as the best sounding. When I was at the CES show with a bunch of reviewers from the audio press and all digital haters,  everyone of them picked the CD as sounding the best.

[jarcher]

 I like the cheap and cheerful circle because of the opportunity to discuss and learn about gear that is an exceptional value.

 Nonetheless I find that as more time passes by I am less and less  preoccupied with the cost of gear and more interested about their unique sonic signature and design.  As I think it should be and an attitude I think  you tend to find  more common of enthusiasts In other fields.  That is, for example, you don't usually find car or  watch enthusiasts obsessing about the cost or value of these to the exclusion of appreciating and enjoying them for what they are.  Or floods of comments or letters to the editor predominantly complaining about what a rip off this or that car, watch or other luxury good is.  And particularly not trolls from outside those communities. The excessive attention and concern about price seems to be more predominant in the boutique audio world than in other consumer and particularly boutique luxury goods.  The cost may be way beyond the means of the enthusiast, or not considered a worthwhile value worthy of investment, but this doesn't seem to crush the appreciation of the item.  You may not be able to afford a Ferrari, but that doesn't mean you still don't appreciate them or wouldn't like to have one if you could. Nor should it dampen enthusiasm for say a nice little GTI.

So in the end I guess all I'm saying is that you can choose to just fly the C&C flag, but audio life would be dulled without the others. Perhaps this is ocassion to start an "Exorbitant and Execrable" circle. Could be fun even if that doesn't quite roll off the toungue as nice as Cheap and Cheerful!

[JohnR]

So in the end I guess all I'm saying is that you can choose to just fly the C&C flag, but audio life would be dulled without the others.

Um... there's no rule that you're not allowed to have a C&C system (or systems) as well as one that is the best you can afford.

[JLM]

JohnR:  True.  I have three "systems".  My main 2-channel rig resides in my basement study.  HT is a low priority for me, so the A/V system is made up mostly of audio leftovers, and as Frank Van Alstine would note, is turned off over 99% of the time.  The living room "system" (Logitech UE smart radio) is for occasional background music.   


jarcher:  +1


Being an audiophile is not a destination, but a pursuit.  So there's no goal posts or defined paths that must be followed.  Goals can change and at time we may back track.  I triggered this discussion by sharing some of my personal lessons learned.  I sometimes view audio gear as crutches, helping us "disabled" listeners to better appreciate the music.  I deem wonted ignorance of the technology of gear or of the recording process as choosing to be simple minded and not typical of audiophiles.  But as a group we are generally poorly informed of both which explains the disconnection between the industry (particularly the recording industry) and audiophiles.

[dB Cooper]

Most audiophiles don't give a damn about the science and technology of recorded music. In fact, audiophiles rarely discuss how music sounds -- they talk about how their gear sounds.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I like the CC because it has helped me put together some nice budget systems with gear recommended on CC.  I have a high end main system and 3 other CC systems in my house that sound great.

[dB Cooper]

An additional advantage of C&C (setting aside those of us for whom it is the only option) is that it leaves you more to spend on live music, something that no system I have heard at any cost can completely simulate.

Maybe getting lost a bit here is the distinction between cost and cost effectiveness.  Setting your priorities wisely is essential to effective C&C. A reader recently posted about a room in which he was having sound problems. He included a photo which made it obvious that the room was in real need of rearranging, room treatments, or both, but one of the suggestions he received was to get 'warmer sounding' speaker cables. Setting aside the question of how you find those (trust some reviewer, I guess), I suspect that the effect of getting the room right would dwarf the effect of any cabling change, dollar for dollar, even if you buy into the boutique cabling concept. Solve the big problems first.

A lot of the extra costs in 'boutique' brands come from things like half-inch-thick filigreed faceplates, things that make absolutely no difference in the sound, but do make the system more expensive (and more expensive looking, which is often the point.) Sheet metal and hardware is surprisingly expensive, and I wouldn't be surprised if the cabinetry in many pieces costs more than the circuitry. You can save a lot on a system if you avoid 'bling'.

[Wind Chaser]

The Cheap and Cheerful guidelines are defined as $1000 max for a system budget and no more than $350 allowed for any single component. That equates to mid-fi at best. Now there's nothing wrong with mid-fi, but most people who are into this hobby are not satisfied with mediocrity.

The OP stated "Many aspects of this pastime make little/no difference to my ears or are bullish*t." He's entitled to his opinion, but most folks who are into this hobby know better. 

[macrojack]

An additional advantage of C&C (setting aside those of us for whom it is the only option) is that it leaves you more to spend on live music, something that no system I have heard at any cost can completely simulate.

Maybe getting lost a bit here is the distinction between cost and cost effectiveness.  Setting your priorities wisely is essential to effective C&C. A reader recently posted about a room in which he was having sound problems. He included a photo which made it obvious that the room was in real need of rearranging, room treatments, or both, but one of the suggestions he received was to get 'warmer sounding' speaker cables. Setting aside the question of how you find those (trust some reviewer, I guess), I suspect that the effect of getting the room right would dwarf the effect of any cabling change.

A lot of the extra costs in 'boutique' brands come from things like half-inch-thick filigreed faceplates, things that make absolutely no difference in the sound, but do make the system more expensive (and more expensive looking, which is often the point.) Sheet metal and hardware is surprisingly expensive, and I wouldn't be surprised if the cabinetry in many pieces costs more than the circuitry. You can save a lot on a system if you avoid 'bling'.

I fully agree with dB on all counts. If nothing else this C&C thread has drawn a lot of introspection and honesty that I haven't seen exhibited to such a degree on any other audio site. Ironic, I suppose, that we are forbidden to discuss religion here when so much of what the audiophile community espouses is delivered with religious zeal and wide-eyed chauvinism.

[charmerci]

I'm a bit confused about EarlyB's and db's comments - they keep implying that the word/person "audiophile" is mostly only interested in the gear and not much in the music itself. Not sure how that helps in the discussion.

Second, I think an overlooked aspect in C&C is the sound quality of the digital source. I recently bought a new laptop ($200 Asus) and compared to my 4 year-old Acer - it sounded much better!

Also IME, I've found that the true test of a C&C system (or any for that matter) is how much I can stand listening to it when it's turned up loud.

[asliarun]

A lot of the extra costs in 'boutique' brands come from things like half-inch-thick filigreed faceplates, things that make absolutely no difference in the sound, but do make the system more expensive (and more expensive looking, which is often the point.) Sheet metal and hardware is surprisingly expensive, and I wouldn't be surprised if the cabinetry in many pieces costs more than the circuitry. You can save a lot on a system if you avoid 'bling'.

Completely agree with you. There are also a few boutique manufacturers who focus on minimalism and high quality of components, while keeping prices low enough, perhaps even by C&C standards. Dayens Ampino can be considered as an example.

In response to Wind Chaser's comment about C&C being mid-fi at best, I have a question. Is it necessary for quality (of audio reproduction) and price to be so tightly related?

• Especially in today's world where boutique manufacturers are able to sell direct on the internet with little overhead.
• Where Chinese designers, many who started off just being copycats, have been able to significantly improve their quality while still keeping costs low.
• Where technological advances have allowed designers to come up with price and quality disruptive products. Tripath chip amps for example. Or FPGA based DACs that allow designers to fully model and build an R2R ladder DAC in a fully programmable chip. Or Class D amps. Or even something really humble like Google's Chromecast Audio that acts as a streaming device with high-res and multi-room support (and even an inbuilt DAC) - all for $35.
• Where "old gold" can sometimes be grabbed for really good prices. Such as high-end hifi components from 15-20 years ago that are considered obsolete today because they don't support the latest "features" but are sufficient for our specific needs.

Not saying any of this is easy. But it is worth considering that investing enough time and energy to research and understand these options can often give sound quality that matches significantly more expensive systems.

[Wind Chaser]

asliarun

The Dayens Ampino is a fine amp, I know, I have one. However it does not fall into the category of Cheap and Cheerful as defined by this circle.

[FasterThanEver]

Early B. and Windchaser made some sweeping generalizations on the limits of C&C.  It reminds me of the joke

"What's the difference between theory and practice?  In theory, there isn't any."

C&C explorations are mostly about experiment.  That's the way we find out about the worthwhile C&C components. We can speculate about a component that we haven't heard but the proof is in the pudding.  Both measurement and listening tests matter to me.  With the decline of B&M stores and the rise of online sellers with 30 day trials, it is getting harder to have first hand knowledge.  I don't like to order a bunch of stuff and return it, so forums like this one provide good info before I place an order.  Keep the C&C discussions coming.

My theory:  Just how compromised a C&C component is depends on the type of component and the specific model.

There days DACs get quite good within the C&C range.  A two way speaker with a 5-6" mid-woofer in a moderate sized enclosure can be good within the C&C range.

Speakers with more drivers or large cabinets are a poorer bet.  Subwoofers are a poorer bet.

[OzarkTom]

Is a C&C system capable of being SOTA today? If you keep a close watch, yes.

There was a pair of modded DD servo Acostat X's in Santa Barbara for $750, no speaker wires needed. I saw a Scott Nixon tube DAC sell on Ebay for $150, add a passive pre for $50 and you have a SOTA system for $950, much better than anything else here on C&C.

When Roger Modjski was here on AC, someone wrote they had bought a brand new pair of Monitors for $500. A few years ago on the Canadian Audio Mart, someone gave away a pair of the Monitor 3's if you only picked them up.

So who all uses these Acostats as a reference? Steve Decware for one, Brian of GIK Acoustics here on AC is another. I sold Brian(bpape) that pair in 1982  and he cannot find anything at the audio shows that he likes better.

FVA once said "they (the Acoustats) make everything else sound like they're broken." Frank helped Jim Strickland in designing the TNT amps and TNP pre.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/the-hub-acoustat-x-stats-with-tubes

Another way is by 2+2's but you will need an amp. I have seen several sets sell for $500 lately, a pair in Austin is selling for $600. Jeff of Tone Audio wrote on a forum last year or two, he could live with those the rest of his life.

C&C is getting better and better.

[GRACE RUBY]

Most audiophiles don't give a damn about the science and technology of recorded music. In fact, audiophiles rarely discuss how music sounds -- they talk about how their gear sounds. Audiophiles don't enjoy listening to music any more than non-audiophiles. So part of defining an audiophile is their propensity to spend excessively (relatively speaking) on audio gear. Even those of us with only Cheap & Cheerful gear spend far more on audio gear than most people.

The defining trait of audiophiles is the desire to assemble an audio system that will allow them to achieve the highest possible level of sonic fidelity (within their budgets, of course). The Cheap & Cheerful circle is popular because many of us want to know -- how can I get more for less?
   

Hello Earl B.  and thank you for yours, well said 

[drphoto]

I made a post a few months back about my foray into C&C. I said it was fun for me because I stopped listening to the system and started listening to the music. When I play my main rig, which is pretty decent, I can't help but just nitpick everything about and think about what I want 'fix'.  But when I play my computer audio rig, which is a $30 tripath integrated and Onix Ref1 monitors with Mirage sub out of Mac Pro laptop I don't care. It makes me happy because it sounds way better than I expect. I mean I was just happy the little amp could even power the speaker. Does it sound great? No. But it's pretty damn good. The weak link is probably the Mac audio out.  But I got this mostly to listen to audio out from Netflix, etc, not really for music. But for pretty darn nice for occasional iTunes library tracks, and especially some of the high rez stuff I downloaded.

I agree with the post that one pays a hefty premium for fancy cabinet work. I may try one of the Parts Express kits down the road.They have a kit that is a transmission line 2 way with Morel drivers that is pretty highly regarded for around $600. If I get would just paint with truck bed liner, as I don't need fancy figured wood cabinets. My Merlin TSM-MMe's have similar finish, but they were around $2500.

[GRACE RUBY]

about my foray into C&C. I said it was fun for me because I stopped listening to the system and started listening to the music. When I play my main rig, which is pretty decent, I can't help but just nitpick everything about and think about what I want 'fix'.

this is a huge subject. Thank you drphoto
   

[gnostalgick]

  While I agree that C&C (currently defined <$1000), could lead to greater than 'mid-fi' results, there's so much luck & knowledge involved (especially in finding used deals), that getting there on budget is not guaranteed.  Definitely a better path for hobbyists than beginners.

[JohnR]

Definition of audiophile: "a person who is especially interested in high-fidelity sound reproduction." (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/audiophile)

Seems fairly innocuous to me, and in fact, is the reason this site exists. Aligning the whole membership of this site to "disorders that often are related to incest and other ritual abuse's" is more than a little extreme. I'd really hope that GRACE RUBY might take a little time off to rethink these remarks.

[JLM]

Others can comment, but the Cheap & Cheerful budgetary guidelines, are generally seen as exactly that, guidelines, not hard and fast rules.  The $350/component guideline has even more leeway, especially with inclusion of active/powered speakers (that can include a DAC) and essentially be the entire system (assuming you have a computer to stream/play ripped music). 

The spirit of Cheap & Cheerful is to follow both premises as guiding principles.  Not to argue, take on the world, or say it is the only way to audio bliss.  The joy I find in this refreshing approach that it necessarily forces one to cut out the nonsense and excess so prevalent in audio and focuses on the essence of high-fidelity reproduction of music.  There is joy in being a free spirit and not a curmudgeon.