[Louis O]

Hi All,

Here they are and one of the best sounding small monitors I've ever made.

Size is 16 tall x 8 wide x 12.5 deep.

Speakers pictured are finished in Walnut and still figuring out the prices.
I'm working on a shorter name too.








Thanks,
Louis

[roscoe65]

Looks nice Louis!

A couple of questions:

1.  I assume these are nominal 4 ohms and 97dB efficient?
2.  I also assume you are bringing in the lower driver below 500hz.  Is this a way to accomplish baffle step correction?  I have the wide baffle Super 3's, and while they benefit from low end reinforcement, I don't know if they sound like they are that rolled off in the midbass.  Could you elaborate on the single-driver vs. 1.5 way?

[Louis O]

Hi roscoe65,

Thanks and very happy you like them.

I wanted the dimensions to look modern and large enough to be able to use a standard 24" stand.

They are an easy 4 ohm and bit higher than that. I have tried them on all my amps and asked feedback from all who bought the various 1.5 models that I have built. No issues at all and I have had excellent feedback with this series.

To build 16 ohm units right now would add a lot of cost and inventory part items.

One of the reasons is baffle step correction and this set up works great. I spent lots of time on my drivers and cabinet design to have a very well balanced sound as a traditional single driver though. You're correct as the wide baffle helps.

I will say the 1.5 will have more heft in the mid bass and bit more slam there too. I like the added dynamics of them.

The sensitivity goes up a bit.
The surface area doubles
The twin drivers work half as hard as one
Moving mass is 1.9 grams times 2 which is still very light.
Just a simple high quality air core coil in the path.
Synergy is a good as it gets with 2 of the same drivers.
All the single driver attributes above 500Hz.

This set up will also allow you to play more complex music easily and at higher volumes.

Thanks again,
Louis

[roscoe65]

Interesting Louis.

I'm just clarifying in my mind how one driver can be used satisfactorily in different configurations.  I can appreciate that doubling the driver would increase efficiency by 3dB (perhaps more due to coupling).  I suppose that one of the difficulties we all face is the lack of standards for efficiency, i.e., test conditions (anechoic or using room gain), bandwidth, and variation from reference level (+/- 3dB, +/- 1dB).

If we assume that +/- 3dB is an acceptable frequency response, than a -3dB level below 300-500 hz with a single RS5 driver really isn't that big of a deal.  Logically, adding a second driver below 500hz would contribute an added fullness without seeming bass-heavy.  Along the same lines, adding a second driver off axis, either facing upward (omni) or rearward (bipole) would add additional bass energy with higher frequencies rolled off off-axis.  It would appear that all three methods of adding a second driver effectively increase bass-midbass frequencies by 3dB or more without an appreciable increase level above the midbass.  In effect, we get the benefits of a smaller driver in high frequencies along with the ability to move more air at lower frequencies.

I would argue that the best choice among these three dual-driver approaches would depend on the room and speaker positioning.

1.  1.5 way - forward radiation pattern, minimal room boundary interaction.  This speaker can be placed close to the front wall.  This boundary positioning will also provide some additional bass boundary gain with the rear ports coupling to the wall.

2.  Omni - forward and upward radiation pattern.  The upward-facing driver adds bass and upper frequencies are attenuated by being off axis and delayed by ceiling bounce.  This speaker can also be placed close to the front wall, but relies on a relatively high ceiling to get adequate time delay from the upward facing driver to avoid smearing.

3.  Bipole - forward and backward radiation pattern.  The rear-facing driver behaves similarly to the Omni driver described above, but uses the front wall instead of ceiling for reflection.  This speaker must be placed a significant distances (>1m) from the front wall.  This would be terrific for near-field listening in a small to medium sized room. 

A single driver RS5-based speaker can be satisfying as well.  I wold posit that when positioned near a room boundary (such as the front wall) the midbass will be enhanced, providing a fuller sound.  Likewise, a wider baffle such as the original Super 3 or the Super 3XRS could provide similar midbass enhancement.

If we assume that the single-driver speaker is shelved 3dB down below 500hz or so, its not the end of the world.  It may be a bit leaner sounding (this corresponds with my own experience with my Super 3's) but still adequate in the midbass.  I would argue that for music with a lot of female vocals, the dingle-driver version is absolutely perfect:

http://www.audio-issues.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/main_chart.jpg

My gut feeling is that perhaps the ideal expression of the RS5 is an omnidirectional XRS.  With a slight backward tilt, the omni driver is firing at the boundary of the front wall and ceiling, providing the maximum delay while allowing a closer distance to the front wall than a bipole.

[mick wolfe]

Yes indeed..... your "gut feeling" is very close to what I'm experiencing with my RS5 Omni's.  Even when placed a shade less than 2' from the front wall, the presentation is open and spacious. The way they totally disappear in my listening room might be considered somewhat spooky as well.

[roscoe65]

Hi roscoe65,

Thanks and very happy you like them.

I wanted the dimensions to look modern and large enough to be able to use a standard 24" stand.

They are an easy 4 ohm and bit higher than that. I have tried them on all my amps and asked feedback from all who bought the various 1.5 models that I have built. No issues at all and I have had excellent feedback with this series.

To build 16 ohm units right now would add a lot of cost and inventory part items.

One of the reasons is baffle step correction and this set up works great. I spent lots of time on my drivers and cabinet design to have a very well balanced sound as a traditional single driver though. You're correct as the wide baffle helps.

I will say the 1.5 will have more heft in the mid bass and bit more slam there too. I like the added dynamics of them.

The sensitivity goes up a bit.
The surface area doubles
The twin drivers work half as hard as one
Moving mass is 1.9 grams times 2 which is still very light.
Just a simple high quality air core coil in the path.
Synergy is a good as it gets with 2 of the same drivers.
All the single driver attributes above 500Hz.

This set up will also allow you to play more complex music easily and at higher volumes.

Thanks again,
Louis

One point to add:  two 4.5 inch drivers have the same surface area as one 6.5 inch driver.  I can see this as important to being able to move the amount of air in the lower frequencies for higher output.  At the same time the smaller driver will excell in the upper frequencies.  There is also the advantage of high power handling.  I have three SE tube amps that run from 4wpc to 20wpc, as well as a 30 wpc Class D amp.  With a single driver I definitely hear compression as the driver begins to run out of steam.  With two drivers we not only will be able to go louder with a low power amp, but be able to take more power to get the dynamics we want.

[DavidS]

always a struggle to find speakers that work in my small listening room (12 x 13).  The omnis sound mighty interesting for my setup (tube amp in small room).  Don't see a price on the omega site but might be very tempted (have been considering trying spatial m3/4's).

[roscoe65]

David,

Your 12 x 13 room is probably a pretty common size for many of us, including myself.  It is a common size of a spare bedroom that is usually called into service for a dedicated listening room.  A room this size may be a challenge for OB speakers, though it may work in the near field if the speakers are suited for it.

I've found that speakers that work in small rooms tend to be those that work well in the near field, those that take advantage of the room boundaries, and generally more sensitive speakers that don't rely on being cranked up to 11 to open up.  Any of the Omega monitor speakers (perhaps with the exception of the bipoles unless used in the near field with lots of space behind them) work well in small rooms.  I have Super 3's and Super Alnico monitors and both work well in my listening room of similar dimensions to yours.  IIRC, Mick Wolf is running omni's in a small room like your own.

One thing I have found that in a small room it is really better to offload the deep bass to a subwoofer(s).  Trying to get below 40hz in a small room becomes a challenge.  If we try to get floorstanders to go too deep we can overpower the room or compromise soundstaging.  I use a pair of small subwoofers (home brew, but if you are buying off the shelf, both Omega and Rhythmik make suitable products).

Regarding Omni's:  I like to play around with my rigs, and take inspiration from a number of designers.  I appreciate the single-box elegance of the two-driver Omni's, but I would rather have two pair of speakers to accomplish the same thing:  one pair in the normal, forward-facing position and another pair behind the first facing upward for the delay/ambience effect.  I can vary the height of the second pair to adjust the delay in my room.  However, if I were putting a pair in my living room which has vaulted ceilings, the all-in-one solution of the factory Omni would probably be fine.

[roscoe65]

Yes indeed..... your "gut feeling" is very close to what I'm experiencing with my RS5 Omni's.  Even when placed a shade less than 2' from the front wall, the presentation is open and spacious. The way they totally disappear in my listening room might be considered somewhat spooky as well.

Mick,

IIRC correctly you have a pair of 36" tall Omni's.  I was thinking of a pair of Omni's that used the typical Super 3 XRS form, such as the Super 3 XRS Bipole (http://omegaloudspeakers.com/omegaoutlawsupe3.html) with the second driver mounted on the top rather than the rear.  IMHO, this would give a bit better delay due to the lower speaker height as well as firing the second driver at the celing/front wall junction due to the rear tilt of the cabinet.  If Louis wants to give an opinion on this

[JLM]

Regarding Omni's:  I like to play around with my rigs, and take inspiration from a number of designers.  I appreciate the single-box elegance of the two-driver Omni's, but I would rather have two pair of speakers to accomplish the same thing:  one pair in the normal, forward-facing position and another pair behind the first facing upward for the delay/ambience effect.  I can vary the height of the second pair to adjust the delay in my room.  However, if I were putting a pair in my living room which has vaulted ceilings, the all-in-one solution of the factory Omni would probably be fine.

Jim Romeyn called this 2nd pair of speakers concept "Late Ceiling Splash".  At Duke LeJeune's suggestion I've incorporated a Late Ceiling Splash tweeter to my large floor-standing single driver speakers to very good effect.  Treble response enhanced and soundstage enlarged/solidified.

[roscoe65]

Jim Romeyn called this 2nd pair of speakers concept "Late Ceiling Splash".  At Duke LeJeune's suggestion I've incorporated a Late Ceiling Splash tweeter to my large floor-standing single driver speakers to very good effect.  Treble response enhanced and soundstage enlarged/solidified.

Duke was my inspiration as well.  With separate cabinets I can fine-tune the delay to my room.

[Hubb]

I may in the next week or so (right Louis) have some direct real world experience to contribute to this conversation. I have ordered a pair of Super 3XRS 1.5 way after several phone calls and many emails with the man of infinite patience.  Both drivers will be baffle mounted/front firing.  The cabinet will be 35h x 11w x 8.5d.  I will be using them in a 350sq ft room at first but eventually they will be used in a much smaller room near field.  Even in the larger space I listen quasi near field.  We went with the wider baffle because Louis indicated it refines the midrange.  I will be driving them with a Rogue pre and a modded Dyna ST70 while I shop for a SET amp.  A Martin Logan Depth i sub will be in the mix as well.

Michael

[pstrisik]

While considerably more expensive, It would be very interesting to have separate cabinets for second drivers.  Given the simplicity of design/connections, one could use it in multiple ways.  Let's assume SAMs.  The second module, equipped with the same alnico driver, could be set up as a base under the monitor with the low pass filter yielding a 1.5 way design.  Or it could be placed behind and facing up, bypassing the filter yielding  omnis. 

Assumes there isn't significant advantage to having both drivers in the acoustic space of a single cabinet.  It also assumes one doesn't mind paying double the cost of a pair of SAMs!


.........Peter

[mick wolfe]

always a struggle to find speakers that work in my small listening room (12 x 13).  The omnis sound mighty interesting for my setup (tube amp in small room).  Don't see a price on the omega site but might be very tempted (have been considering trying spatial m3/4's).

David.....If you are struggling to find a speaker that works in a 12 x 13 room, try a 10 x 11 room.  The search finally ended when I stumbled on the Ohm Micro(Tall) and eventually the Ohm 1000. Nothing came close to the magic these omni's did in this small room.....and that would include Spatial M2 Turbo's and several monitor types. The Spatial's actually "kinda" worked in this room IF you love a front row presentation. They really sing much better in larger rooms where you can pull them away from the front wall 4' to 5'. In other words, I didn't find them to be ideal near field candidates.
The Ohms are superb designs, but I really wanted to see what a much more efficient design would bring to the table. Omega looked like an interesting option, especially with the versatility of the various" Outlaw" models designed around the RS5 driver. I started by auditioning the Super 3i  Monitior. I liked what I heard, but felt a 2 driver version in a larger cabinet would be needed to match the weight /warmth of the Ohm 1000. So to make a long story short, I collaborated with Louis to create a floor standing RS5 "Omni". Matches the Ohm's spooky disappearing act in spades and I gained roughly 10db in efficiency. And yes, tonally superb as well much like the Ohm 1000. Amp used is an Line Magnetic 218ia. This thing is a beast despite its 22 watt rating, but the efficiency gain undoubtedly created a greater sense of ease all the way around. One more note in regard to what Roscoe has already mentioned.....adding the second RS5 driver to the equation is truly a game changer for all the reasons he's already mentioned.

[DavidS]

I think it is likely that the sound I want is just not going to be available in this small room.  Over the last 15 years I have tried 10+ different speakers including Zu Druids, Ellis 1801 (still have them), Harbeth P3's, Penaudio, Audio Note E and K, Frugelhorns.  The best I have had are my current speakers - Merlin MXM's.  But it is clearly nearfield / point source, pull them well out from the wall listening.  The Merlins are a whole different speaker in a larger space.

I have moved the system to other larger rooms - but these are family spaces (vs the dedicated small room) and particularly the Druids, Ellis 1801s, the big Audio Notes, oh yes my maggies too have that open, spacious, detailed, almost floating sound that fills the room from wall to wall to ceiling.  Lately have been back and forth on ditching the small room - idea is to go Spatials in 18 x 35 living room and headphones and audioengines in small room.

I have never tried Ohm's or even another brand Omni - have read good things in small rooms.  Thanks for taking the time to write up your experience.

[gnostalgick]

Peter,

  That's an interesting idea; many possibilities in a modular approach.