[woodsyi]

Chairguy,

I am using tubes on ribbons and I like it alot.  Having said that, I will agree with you in that most tube amps cannot match comparably priced ss gear in driving those big woofers.  The solution for me is biamping with tubes on top and ss on the bottom.  To me, this gives me the best of both worlds:  liquid smooth mids and thumping bass (highs can vary for tubes I found out).  I did not set out to get ss or tube in particular -- I just ended up with this combination after experimenting with different gears to get the sound I like.  I listen to alot of opera, jazz and orchestral music as well as folk, pop and gospel vocals.  The most important thing for me is that vocal music has to convey the "emotional" aspect of the performance and that tonality should come close to the real performance.  Tubes seem to be the best for my requirements.  For Beethoven's 5th, however, I need the ss driving the woofers.  I really like my set up right now except on one particular type of music.  The tubes have a little higher noise floor and on pieces like "Lark ascending" by Vaughn Williams in which delicate violin solo is called for,  too much of annoying noise comes through.  It could also be a power filtering issue.

[TheChairGuy]

Wow, this is all good, relative feedback on a thorny issue for me...it really does nurture a continued need to further explore tube gear in the future.

A quick response to some of you:

Kim S. / dsockel / Rich Carlson - I've thus far found my like of 'something other than tube' to be across the board on all music genre's.  I think, if I had found success on some form of music, I may not have posted this topic.  I'm not closing off future possibilities tho.

meilankev / byteme, et al - Tube costs are probably also a bias that pollutes my impression of tube gear.  Along with the heat, energy inefficiency, non-rackmountable feature, add to it replacement cost of tubes and it'll make an all-too-utterly rational guy like me turn off before hearing it thru.  I know I'm probably guilty of this. It's inviting to actually hear that tube replacement costs may not be as excessive as I once believed...it'll probably get me to listen a little more intently in the future

Lost81 - Good point on MOSFET replacement.  Stan Warren had told me this regarding his Superphon gear (JFETS).  He also said the caps he used were shot after 10-15 years max.  Unless you solder well, that could be a very expensive proposition to reclaim past glorious sound...everybody can roll a tube I'm sure.

JohnR - I had no idea you enjoyed tubes....I've only heard you wax your kinda' poetry about AKSA in the time I've known you.  I've not heard the Panny XR45, but you know how smitten I am by the JVC RX hybrids.  Tho, again I admit to subjectivity on the matter....it's the value that is most attractive about.  For US$250, I get better-than-anything-I've-personally-experienced sound in my home, with the elimination of cables, separate amplification and a tuner.  The energy efficiency makes me feel like I'm doing my part to use a little less of dwindling world resources, too.  Mostly tho, it's the superb value for excellent sound....and I again readily admit I'm biased in these ways.

I'm glad you all took my comments as something more a plea to understand, rather than a swipe and looting of your individual pleasures.

[TheChairGuy]

woodsyi,

When I first got my Dynaco PAS-4 I thought I paid about $599 too much

After doing the mortite and Herbie thing, it improved...but I still figured it was $300 too much.

Putting an aftermarket cord on it improved it another $50.

It wasn't until I started running it thru my BPT 2 that I realized that it might not have been a totally poor purchase overall.  It almost sounded real to me.....but still had the lousy attributes I've perceived to have heard with tube gear.  Clearly, I've been trying to polish off a bit of a turd....even as the polish (BPT 2 in this case) was quite effective.

Or, as my biz partner is fond of saying ' You can't put lipstick on a pig'

[Marbles]

' You can't put lipstick on a pig'...

Maybe not, but for my Brother in law's 30th B'day party, someone brought a sheep wearing Lingerie  

The cops were called to that party and apparently stayed for a drink  

(all of the above is true)

[woodsyi]

I don't know that it's not worth the polishing effort.  Just yesterday, after a rather large rawhide, my dog produced a specimen than was super hard and looked like a chocolate/vanila mixed smoothie cone.  With the right polish and glazing could have passed for one!

[jswallac]

TheChairGuy,  I think I share a lot of your traits, just in a different way.  I am pretty new to this stuff, but have been smitten by the sound of tubes.  I really really would prefer to use SS, but just do not find it as involving.  I really respect the way you have approached this hobby.  I read on some other threads you have spend major dollars on your front-end, but then use a $300 JVC receiver for amplification.  Obviously you are not a name snob and you have what you have because it sounds best to your ears.  In fact, based on your, Richard's, and DMason's glowing comments about the JVC, I bought the unit (actually two of them, but that is another story).  I have also owned a Panny XR45 based on the raves I read.  Always trying to get away from tubes to something more convieneint.  I always come back to tubes, however.  

Given the "hassles" tubes represent, the fact that so many of us swear by (and at times at) them says something.  Compare a tube amp to your JVC.  In one box you have a preamp, an amp, and even a tuner!  You have a remote to control it all.  Just a remote in most tube integrated amps (if you even get one), is a $400 to $500 option.  Well over the cost of your entire JVC.  Throw in ICs, tube rolling, owning a space heater in the summertime ...  Some of the many reasons I really want to like SS.  So it is obvious we love tubes for something other than the convienence.

I disagree with some others that you need to spend a great deal to get good tube sound.  My first tube amp was a Jolida 102B.  I still consider getting another one again.  The Sophia Baby is another entry level amp that I loved.  I have heard many high priced SS gear such as Krell, Classe, Simaudio, Aragon, etc., and prefer the Jolida to any of them.  Caveat, I listen at much lower volumes and do not need or desire the ability to cause bloodflow from my ears.

An analogy I use for tubes/SS is a living room.  SS (or good SS at least) is like an extremely clean room.  Walls are painted stark white with Ansel Adams prints on the walls.  The hardwood floor is highly polished.  The furniture is nice leather.  The maid has really done an exceptional job.  Now tubes.  Paint the walls a warmer color.  Replace the Ansel Adams black and white prints with watercolors.  Place a nice area rug on the floor.  Throw some nice fabric cushions on the sofa.  Build a fire in the fireplace.  This is tubes!  

I often hear SS described as more accurate.  Perhaps that is so.  To me it is the sterile room described above.  I will take some soot from the fire, when the outcome is a more emotional experience.  That is what tubes give me, the ability to become involved with the music, not just listen to it.

That said, I beleive you feel the exact same way about the JVC.  You are lucky, you have your cake and can eat it too.  For me, the trade-off still exists between the sound and the ease of use.  Currently I am trying a hybrid amp with a tube preamp section.  Some say the best of both worlds.  The jury is still out for me, but I am leaning toward the view that it is yet another trade-off.

Sorry about the length of this, but thanks if you got this far.

[TheChairGuy]

Maybe not, but for my Brother in law's 30th B'day party, someone brought a sheep wearing Lingerie  

Marbles, I'm Greek...I'd appreciate if you didn't make me THAT horny and kept that to yourself  

You know what they say about Greece, don't ya?...that women are beautiful and plentiful, but sheep run a bit skittish.....

[Zero]

JSWallac,

Great post.  Very well thought out.

All,

I feel as though I am simply not qualified enough to participate in this thread.  I have heard some decent tube gear, and owned a few pieces myself.  The gain always seemed to be a foward presentation.  No matter what tube I used on the given piece, I always gained a sense of a fuller sound.  Instruments sounded more pleasant and less clinical than their simular priced  SS counter-parts.  For me, that is where the fairy tail always ends.

Typically I find dynamics to be limited, bass to be bloated, highs to be "harsh".  When I begin to think about the power consumption, tube rolling, and all the other work involved, I dont feel the trade-offs are worth the expense.  

Obviously my experience is quite limited so I have formed no conclusions yet.  It wouldnt be right to.  I really want to hear this tube magic people speak of, but so far, I've just never been impressed.

The JVC F-10 has been a wonderful piece that replaced a Jolida JD-1301 I was using for the second system.  I cant say I sacrificed anything, including the lucious mid-range.  Everything is there, and then some.

Different strokes, and all that mess.

[TheChairGuy]

jswallac,

No free ride here either, on the JVC.  A recent change of speakers to Maggies turned my lovable little JVC ES1sl into a cheap receiver again.

But, I bought the newer F10 as it's supposed to be conservatively rated to 6 ohms...versus the ES1sl's 8 ohms.  I'm hoping that JVC improved the handling factor and didn't tamper with anything else.  Again, as earlier mentioned, it's the synergy issue that seems most important, overall.

I sure read your post long as it may have been  

Yeah, I'm no snob about much of anything.  Some folks that know me think I'm an Italian (and Spanish) shoe snob (I have many pairs of some great looking shoes over the course of time), but it really comes down to the fact that Chinese and Brazilian lasts wreck havok on my flat feet.  It's whatever works for me, and looks presentable, is what I'm after.  If I can save, as well, then it's even better. In the case of my shoes - I'm comfortable.  A place I'd like to be in my audio hobby, and have not been, at many price ranges and types of equipment...but I keep trying.

[JLM]

Chairguy,

Tubes tend to sound warm, slow, and have midrange magic.  Good tube amps have no grain.  These are generalizations though.  Decware amps for instance, don't sound warm or slow and their prices run $400 - 4000 for 2 - 12 wpc integrated solutions.

Have you heard a SET (single ended triode) tube amp?  Typically they produce less than 10 wpc, so high efficiency (or at least easy to drive average efficiency) speakers are a must.  IMO these are the best examples of tube amps.  They are the original examples of "the simplier the better" in amp designs.

Tube amps exhibit poor bass damping.  So they mate well with compression drivers, low Qts drivers, and horn loadings.  And since most these are also high efficiency, this can be a match made in heaven.  Klipsch speakers for instance can suddenly amaze when paired to a SET.

Compared to solid state, tubes are at their best at low outputs (for SETs typically less than 1 wpc).  But since most listening, even with average efficiency speakers, is done with 1 or less wpc it works well.  Low power also means less cone excusion, so damping is less of an issue.

As you can probably put together from the above, SETs lend themselves to certain musical types, mostly small ensembles.  The midrange magic, romantic warmth, grainless presentation with improved soundstage can be most beguiling.

I've recently had extended in-home auditions of a $1500 Decware Torii 12 wpc integrated amp and a $200 JVC RX-ES1SL 100 wpc digital/hybrid receiver.  On an audiophile scale of 0 - 10, the Torii scored a 9 with my Fostex F200A full range driver in mass loaded transmission line floorstanders.  Finally after reaching the 300 hour mark, the JVC hit an 8 out of 10.  Not bad for a $200 receiver.  Of course build quality and warrantees don't compare, but either does features or convenience.  BTW the Torii pretty much flunked a 20 - 50 Hz worble test on my speakers, the JVC did better, but my 6 year old Rotel had no problems.  So if I had tried both with a horn loaded low Qts and/or compression driver(s) the Torii would probably have mopped the floor with the JVC with it's "loose" bass damping.

[ctviggen]

What about tube preamps mated to solid state amps?  I have too much invested in my solid state amp to give it up.

[Hantra]

What about tube preamps mated to solid state amps?  I have too much invested in my solid state amp to give it up.

Why "give it up"?  What are you missing?

[ctviggen]

I don't know what I'm missing -- I've never had tubes (other than a tube CDP, which I use in a second system).  I was thinking of buying a tubed device to see if I like tubes, but I'd rather go tube preamp and not tube amp.  If I was to choose amps, I'd go tube amp for highs/mids and solid state for lows, but this is only based on the recommendations of others.

[Hantra]

I don't know what I'm missing -- I've never had tubes (other than a tube CDP, which I use in a second system).  I was thinking of buying a tubed device to see if I like tubes, but I'd rather go tube preamp and not tube amp.  If I was to choose amps, I'd go tube amp for highs/mids and solid state for lows, but this is only based on the recommendations of others.

I gotcha. . .

I have heard the #12, which is similar to the #10, and I think it could benefit from a tubed pre.  Honestly I think there are SS amplifiers that sound amazingly more like great tubes than JRDG with tons of power.  Those would be Plinius, and my newly discovered love, Perreaux.  

Best bang for the buck in a tubed pre that I have tried has to be Kora.  That AVP is a pretty good pre though, and you may not like the results of going tubed.  I'd try some before I bought anything. . .

[TheChairGuy]

It's all so hit n' miss, no?  I know it's part of the fun, but it's also part of the neurosis.  

To tube or not to tube is but one of the many facets we face in our quest for better sound.  Why is it that only a few hundred thousand of us give a shit at all?

I'd love to be like my buddy sometime...he just shrugs his shoulders when I try to point out the non-musical nuances of his system.  He doesn't care....and is perfectly happy about it.

He gets kick both outta' the fact that some obsess about tubes, or that folks interested in better sound are spending time at the keyboard 'talking' about it and that my amp stands on something called 'Molly Toes'.

[doug s.]

tubes is like s/s in one respect.  some's good, some ain't.  personally, i like tubes.  but, i will always run subs, & will always have s/s amplification for 'em.  so, that's one issue i don't have to worry about.

re: pricing, i think that *generally*, tubed amplification will cost more than s/s amplification for a given quality level.  especially if ya need big power.  but, re: preamps, i think the opposite is true.  i think ya have to spend big bucks on a s/s preamp in order to get the goods a more reasonably priced toob preamp will offer.  also, unless yure gonna use mondo amps w/something like 12 (or more!?!) spendy power tubes per side, or something w/a coupla 300b's per side, the toob costs really are not all that excessive.

when i 1st started out trying tubes, the rogue magnum 99 preamp was my 1st piece, & it did so many things well regarding warmth & soundstaging, that i knew i was hooked, even tho i couldn't live w/the rogue itself, cuz of everything wrong it was doing in my system.  but, it dint take long at all to find a tube pre that offered all the toob bene's, w/o *any* drawbacks.  i still had dynamics, & frequency extension in spades, if not even better than before.

re: amps, it took a li'l while longer for me to get the tube bug - i was really happy w/my s/s electrocompaniet amps used in a wertically bi-amped fashion.  but, i had a chance to pick up a pair of cheap asl wave-8's, that had been upgraded w/auricaps & metal film resistors.  well, these li'l suckers, crossed over at 100hz to 89db-efficient speakers in a 26x38x8.5 room, did enuff right to make me know i'd never run s/s amps on my mains again.  it took me a few months to find a mesa baron amp to replace 'em; the ec's were relegated to subwoofer duty.  

well that mesa baron amp was the innocent victim of a domestic dispute.     which is unfortunate, cuz it was a sweetheart, & wery adjustable.  but, since then, i have had the opportunity to try a coupla other toobed amps.  i am presently running a pair of audio mirror set amps that put out a whopping (especially for set) 40wpc, using the *wery* reasonably priced 6c33c tubes.  these amps are *nice*.  i will a-b them w/a melos mat180 that has had all the m.a.r. updates, & keep whichever one wins.  the melos is a 180wpc beast that is not set, but *is* full triode.  it's presently in las vegas for a check-up, as it was only making ~80wpc when i got it.  (actually, the audio mirrors, at 40lbs each, weigh the same in total, as the single 80lb mat180.)   both these amp set-ups run really hot & suck up the wall-juice, but neither will cost a lot in toob upkeep.

so, as in all things audio, ymmv!    but, don't let cost of tubes & toob gear scare ya.  plenty can be found for reasonable prices - even new, especially since the influx of all the chinese gear like asl, mingda, radii, dared, yust to name a few.  and, if ya don't like the "syrupy" toob sound, there's lotsa tube gear that's as neutral as the best s/s.  that's what i like, too - neutrality...

doug s.

[lcrim]

I've been very pleased by the music produced by a tubed preamp  with a digital amp.  I have a TEAC A-L700P being controlled by an AES AE-3, a fairly inexpensive pairing, driving Sonus Faber Concertino Homes.  The little 30 watt Tripath provides quality way beyond its price point of $100.
I also have the Decware Select (SET) driving Parker 95's through a George Wright preamp (tubed.)
I am not sure which setup I like best.  A few nights back, I moved the Decware/Parker combo into the larger space of the living room and put the Teac/Sonus Faber into the bedroom, a much smaller space.
The all tube Decware/Parker AE-3 setup sounded lean particularly in the upper midrange.  I'm a powered sub user, so the lower end was good.  But the Decware really felt like it missed the room interaction,  the Teac/SF combo was fine wherever, it had a slightly warmer feel connected to the Wright preamp.
My point is, I really like the sound of tubed preamps.  You need to find a nice synergy between amp amd speaker, the Decware can't drive the Concertinos, only 1.8 watts per and the Parkers are a very low impedance design to accomodate the Decware so I didn't want to burn up the Teac trying to run a 2 ohm load.  Powered subs can solve the bass deficiencies in hi efficiency speakers.  At my price point, which is admittedly quite low, I can still use tubes to get a pretty high quality sound.  I don't think there are many devices more transparent than the Decware Select, it reveals what's upstream (good or bad.)  Its biggest drawback is that the list of speakers that are practical to use with it is quite short.  
The Teac is a big 30 watts but it doesn't like difficult loads much either.  I picked up a pair of Acoustic Energy Aegis 1's on closeout for a system for  my girlfriend.  The Teac sounded rough and loose with them even though they are rated around 89 dB efficient (must have a big impedance drop), so I picked up a Toshiba XR50 and thats a nice combination (also becomes a DAC for a Redbook digital input-a nice money saving bonus.)
Tubes don't have to cost an arm and a leg. I just retubed both preamps for $55 and preamps tubes last forever.
BTW, I just ordered another Teac and a pair of Ascend Acoustic CBM170's to see how they sound together.  Not a fancy, esoteric pairing but I think it might sound extraordinary especially with the Wright pre.
My 2 cents, YMMV etc.

[ctviggen]

The only thing I wonder about tubes (and all gear, nowadays), is what the return is.  I've been testing some configurations of CDPs and DACs and many times I really have to concentrate to hear differences between a CDP and a DAC. On the other hand, a dealer brought over some 8th Nerve stuff and set it in my room, then we listened to several songs, then we removed the stuff, and I listened to the song I had just listened to. The difference was amazing -- I needed no more than 10 seconds to tell me that the difference was worth paying for.  For the DACs, it took me two listening sessions and about an hour and a half to figure out the relatively minor differences (between a tube CDP and the Ack Dack DAC, for instance).  Right now, my next purchases are room treatments, as I think these would really provide great value for the price.

[Hantra]

a dealer brought over some 8th Nerve stuff and set it in my room. . .The difference was amazing -- I needed no more than 10 seconds to tell me that the d ...

Ohh man I completely agree with you here!  HUGE difference. . . .

[warnerwh]

You guys are right about room treatment. It should be done BEFORE any equipment upgrades. The sound quality improvement is excellent for the money and then you can also tell much better what to think of a new piece of gear.  As a matter of fact you may find that new piece of gear you thought you needed to buy isn't really necessary at all.  Then again if you're like me you have to try something new every so often so you don't get withdrawal symptoms.
And back to topic, getting a tube preamp is a great way to get into tubes. The tubes are inexpensive and preamps are almost no maintenance other than tubes. Plus they can be had for similar prices of SS stuff. So what are you guys that haven't tried tubes waiting for? Get a tube pre and find out what it's like. You may feel you've found something akin to the holy grail.