[jermmd]

Bob,

When you come over next time we can A-B My tubed preamp to my Outlaw.  Probably not a fair comparison but you'll hear the difference.  The difference between my Sony multidisc CD player and my Xindac tubed CD player is even more dramatic.  I don't really want to take the preamp out of my system because it's too much hassle but if you really want, I will.  JoshK has invited me over to his place to mod my preamp (add remote volume) so I may be taking it out anyway.

Joe M.

[Psychicanimal]

I run a 100% SS system with a Channel Islands passive preamp followed by a Modwright modded Marchand electronic x-over.  I don't see the need for tubes in my system , as power delivery/noise control is well taken care of (30 amp, 220v dedicated line w/isolation transformer/filters).

I don't know of anty reasonably priced power amplifier that could properly drive my ribbon fired Modwright Modright Swans.  It's all in the implementation, I'd say...

[doug s.]

...I don't know of anty reasonably priced power amplifier that could properly drive my ribbon fired Modwright Modright Swans.  It's all in the implementation, I'd say...

i do!  assuming you mean *tubed* amplifier, that is!  

doug s.

[Psychicanimal]

...I don't know of anty reasonably priced power amplifier that could properly drive my ribbon fired Modwright Modright Swans.  It's all in the implementation, I'd say...

i do!  assuming you mean *tubed* amplifier, that is!  

doug s.

Well, Dan Wright changed his $5K Atma Sphere OTL monoblocks and is now using dusty's $995 chip-based monoblocks.  Ewe do the math...

[doug s.]

...I don't know of anty reasonably priced power amplifier that could properly drive my ribbon fired Modwright Modright Swans.  It's all in the implementation, I'd say...

i do!  assuming you mean *tubed* amplifier, that is!  

doug s.

Well, Dan Wright changed his $5K Atma Sphere OTL monoblocks and is now using dusty's $995 chip-based monoblocks.  Ewe do the math...

i don't need to do the math.  i yust don't need to audition the atma sphere otl's now...    bill baker, of response audio, has several amps for <$1500, that i'd rather audition than the cia's.  of course, if i *really* wanted to save a few dollars, i could always buy direct from china...

doug s.

[Psychicanimal]

The problem with tubes is *coloration*.  The Melos I had was colored--in a good way, but colored nonetheless.  My CI passive smoked a $3500 Presence Audio tube pre.  I'd be hard pressed to look further from what I'm doing in my setup.  If I were to have long IC runs then I'd get a tube Marchand to do the driving, avoiding noise in the steps before.  Even Dan Wright uses transistors in the initial voltage gain stage in phono preamplification, with tubes following in the driver stage.

[doug s.]

The problem with tubes is *coloration*.  The Melos I had was colored--in a good way, but colored nonetheless.  My CI passive smoked a $3500 Presence Audio tube pre.  I'd be hard pressed to look further from what I'm doing in my setup.  If I were to have long IC runs then I'd get a tube Marchand to do the driving, avoiding noise in the steps before.  Even Dan Wright uses transistors in the initial voltage gain stage in phono preamplification, with tubes following in the driver stage.

tube colouration is *not* a problem, imo - *if* it sounds more like music.  kinda like why b&w tv gave way to colour - more like reality!     but, if yure happy w/yer set-up, *that's* the important thing - what sounds like music to *you*.  

re: dan's using transistors in the initial gain stage for fono preamplification, this does not surprise me at all - i spoke w/gordon rankin about this.  (he's the owner/designer of wavelength, one of the pre-eminent tube companies.)  he went to a hybrid fono stage cuz he said it's *wery* difficult, if not impossible, to get the tiny woltages amplified correctly w/a pure tube fono-stage, for lo-output mc's.  he recommended against me purchasing one of his used co-tangent all-tube fono stages that i was considering at the time, to drive my 0.35mv output mc cartridge...

doug s.

[Psychicanimal]

Doug,

The "uneditorialized sound of music" is not for everybody.  That's one of the reasons my AudioPrism Super Natural 9.5 power cord is going to find a permanent home with my Marchand x-over.  At that point in the signal path music has to be uneditorialized...and that's why all my IC's are Ridge Street Audio MSE's and the preamp is a Channel Islands passive.

[doug s.]

Doug,

The "uneditorialized sound of music" is not for everybody.  That's one of the reasons my AudioPrism Super Natural 9.5 power cord is going to find a permanent home with my Marchand x-over.  At that point in the signal path music has to be uneditorialized...and that's why all my IC's are Ridge Street Audio MSE's and the preamp is a Channel Islands passive.

francisco, the "uneditorialized sound of music" is not only not for everybody, it's for *NOBODY*!  there's no such thing, when speaking of recorded music - it doesn't exist!     imo, it doesn't even exist w/live music - the venue will always editorialize a live music event.

doug s.

[Psychicanimal]

Doug, "uneditorialized" means what is already in the recording.  A high end audio system must be able to pull that out in a quiet, neutral and frequency extended fashion, with adequate dynamics.  If one decides to add colorations, complementary or otherwise, then those become "listening biases", as Robert Schult of Ridge Street Audio calls them.  Those biases would remain constant from recording to recording and from format to format.

How does that apply to this thread?  Well, a lot of people use tube equipment (and power cords) as filters and tone/spatial enhancers.  Some don't know how to deal with power filtration, vibration control, room acoustics, jitter, speaker placement or any combination of the above and end up chasing their tails all their life.  That's their preference, but in my system that would degrade the sound...and enjoyment.

I just brought over one of my T4 filters for the Yamaha T-1 tuner in my temporary system and along, a Marigo and the Jena Labs cryo'ed power cord.  I tried them and guess what?  The Marigo has a 'better' soundstage and spatial effect but the cryo'ed Absolute is quieter, more extended and with a more neutral, tighter, deeper bass.  Guess which one works better from station to station (one works better w/ the hardcore salsa station) and is the keeper...

[cjr888]

It could also be said that for most of what's on the market, little is neutral, SS or tubed, and everything equals a listening bias.  Not meaning to stir the what is neutral debate, and or trying to dead end the natural progression of how you determine what's neutral, how do you really know, are you sure you really exist?....

But if we're going for the give me warts and all, good and bad, the equivalent of a playback system that a studio engineer would love -- we might as well understand that we shouldn't be talking about all of consumer audio, or all of high end audio, but most likely a few, very few products....

After all, we'd end up with one company -- the neutral company.  Or maybe several that have finally attained their neutral position...but through a different philosophy.

So you're right back to preference, which in turn was the original idea in the thread -- someone not liking the sound (or filter, or enhancer, or op amp, or binding post, or tube, or transformer, or magic pixie dust) of one broad range of equipment....like 'tube amplifiers.'

Times I like much of a very 'tuned' system, times I might enjoy something aiming for the mythical neutrality.  

But the tubes as an enhancer, as a 'tuned' audio system is not much different than you "dialing in your system to dance music (salsa)" or playing around with subtropical wetlands redwood vs, other wood.

At that point, you're playing to preference and not neutrality.  No harm in that, and no harm in being more towards either side of the discussion, but I think it makes more sense to talk of the different flavors and why we prefer some, dislike others, and the shortcomings of each in our experiences....

Apologies for the ramble...

[Psychicanimal]

Apologies for the ramble...

Not at all, that was very intelligent.  I'm flattered you remember what I post!

Now one thing is a "listening bias" and another is "compensating for an idiosincracy in the system".  Right now I'm seriously thinking on how to get the best bass possible out of my Kenwood L-07 M2 monoblocks & NHT SW2-Si ported subs, since I'm not using them neither the Modwright Sawns and the Marantz Esotec's will be put up for sale (they have better bass than the Kenwood's but they're only 30W class A).  

How to get the best tight, deep, fast, least distorted bass with the chosen components and budget constraints falls into the realm of compensating idiosincracies.  Money for a pair of VenHaus Flavor 4's is out of the question, so it's going to be cryo'ed Absolute's.  I'm thinking on how to bribe somebody in the rain forest to get me two wetlands redwood boards for the Kenwood's.  It's going to be ACME silver plated, cryo'ed IEC's and outlets (no money for Fututech silver plated outlets either).

If my system was dialed in for salsa only, I'd have horn speakers, not inefficient mini monitors...   Listening to one of my favorite salsas LP's on Kevin Barret's system (KAB Electroacoustics) DIY all horn system was an ear opening experience!

[cjr888]

If my system was dialed in for salsa only, I'd have horn speakers, not inefficient mini monitors...

Not necessarily trying to sway people out of their own preferences and philosophies, but honestly, with your musical tastes, proper amplifier/speaker matching, and a biamped setup with proper bass, I would think you might love a triode + horn + subwoofer setup and enjoy what it did for the music...  Again, I obviously don't know if you've heard a well executed setup in this vain, or not, but if not, would think that you might be amazed at the outcome, uneditoralized or not....  Strays away from the thread at hand -- but get yourself some horns!  

[Psychicanimal]

I would think you might love a triode + horn + subwoofer setup and enjoy what it did for the music...

Kevin's system is biamped, with a SS Triode amp of his own design/brand and a 7 feet wide horn woofer.  I heard my record with the same KAB Technics 1200 I have and I brought my Monolithic sound phonostage.  It's awesome...simply awesome.

[Lak]

How to get the best tight, deep, fast, least distorted bass with the chosen components and budget constraints falls into the realm of compensating idiosincracies?

 I suppose we all try to achieve this, however isn’t that tuning to our personal taste and perhaps not neutrality?  

[doug s.]

...I just brought over one of my T4 filters for the Yamaha T-1 tuner in my temporary system and along, a Marigo and the Jena Labs cryo'ed power cord. I tried them and guess what? The Marigo has a 'better' soundstage and spatial effect but the cryo'ed Absolute is quieter, more extended and with a more neutral, tighter, deeper bass. Guess which one works better from station to station (one works better w/ the hardcore salsa station) and is the keeper...

thanks, francisco, for making it clear which "editorialization" you prefer!  

doug s.

[doug s.]

How to get the best tight, deep, fast, least distorted bass with the chosen components and budget constraints falls into the realm of compensating idiosincracies?

 I suppose we all try to achieve this, however isn’t that tuning to our personal taste and perhaps not neutrality?  

lak, then-que for yer support!    no one knows what neutrality is.  trying to remain "neutral" to what's on the recording can be a futile task, since that is such a wide-range wariable...  best to tune your system to what sounds most neutral to your ears for most recordings, when it comes outta the speakers.  for doing this, tubes RULE!!!  (my opinion of course!)  

doug s.

[Psychicanimal]

How to get the best tight, deep, fast, least distorted bass with the chosen components and budget constraints falls into the realm of compensating idiosincracies?

 I suppose we all try to achieve this, however isn’t that tuning to our personal taste and perhaps not neutrality?  

A simple question that has a complex answer...

Robert Schult has a great post in Audiogon on how one knows if a piece of gear is neutral.

Getting a system to sound right is akin to making/tuning a steel drum.  That's the best way I can express that.  One needs to use a reference, take small steps, go in a circular fashion and know when, where and how hard to hit (and sometimes go back and retemper the steel).  And one needs a master to teach those processes.  I was an apprentice of a world class steel drum maker and everything clicked into place when I reallized setting up an audio system was very similar.  My main reference is the *boogie factor*.  The better my sytem sounds the more physical it also becomes...

[Psychicanimal]

thanks, francisco, for making it clear which "editorialization" you prefer!  

doug s.

The Absolute is the one staying.  Listening to smooth jazz, country & classical stations confirmed this.

[hifitommy]

i run a mixed system of a tubed front end and ss power.  i bought the adcom pair of gfp565 and gfa555II and was happy for a very long time.  then in my local emporium, a guy came in with an ARC SP3a1 and i scored it for cheeeeeeep.  

inserted in my system it dropped my jaw.  NOTHING like i expected.  the tube warmth etc that stereotypifies tube electronics was MISSING!  instead, wide bandwith, very wide dynamics, imaging and soundstaging that i hadnt had as much of before, and such accurate and vivid tonal colors that i couldnt believe the complete change in sound.  

because of an oscillating power supply and worn out rca jacks, i sent it to arc and had it updated to sp3c.  pricey but worth the bux.  the synergy between the arc and adcom is rewarding.  

not all tubed front ends are like this but i think when you get to arc or vtl you get more than you expect.  i would eventually like to try some 1-200wpc tubed amps someday but for the present, i am standing pat.  

the real surprise is the line stage which exhibits all the attributes i mentioned above.  the phono is also very nice but requires a stepup device for mc.  i have both types of carts and stepups as well.  life is good sometimes.