[Blu99Zoomer]

Being new to analog, I am thinking about my next cartridge selection/direction(MM versus MC versus Strain Gauge).  I am starting with a couple of low cost Shure carts.  SC35C and M97xE. Both are MM I believe.  My phono pre is a Lehmann Audio Black Cube SE II.  If I stay with an MM, I will not need to think about active or passive adjustments.  I don't really understand the electronics involved in matching inputs and outputs yet.  Though I do understand it can make a big difference in sound and thus music appreciation/cartridge synergy with my system, etc. When I read on Vinyl Engine about this, I get a headache.  I wish I had taken more STEM courses as a kid!  Is there a short course somewhere?  Maybe?

Best Regards,

Blu99Zoomer

[woodsyi]

Blu,

First of all you have to let everyone know that you have a Pioneer PLX-1000  TT so that everyone knows what arm you have to give any recommendation on cart -- matching compliance to your arm mass .  I assume you have a stock arm that came with it?  I am not even sure if you can swap out the arm on this table. 

Secondly, what is your budget and what music do you listen to most?

Doesn't Black Cube SE II come with MM and MC?  Or does yours only do MM?  You wouldn't need a SUT if you already have MC option unless you are trying to better the SUT that may be built in to Lehman, assuming that's how they get the extra gain.  But then is MM section that good to warrant an outboard SUT (for the money)?

Strain Gauge would already have matched cart and phonostage.  You would have to work with Peter to get a cantilever that is matched to your arm if you are married to that arm.

[bacobits1]

The Lehmann Audio Black Cube SE II can be adjustable to 66db gain according to the specs on the MC side.
Should be enough gain for all but the lowest MC's out there. Now, using the Lehman at MM level gain and a stepup may give you the gain needed but also the quality changes sometime for the better.
So a consideration not just the gain/volume needed.

[BobRex]

You are asking for a lot of education. 

First, if you staying with MM / MI carts, you typically need around 40dB of gain in a phono stage.  Which is what most phono stages supply with a MM input.  You have a great range of quality carts to choose from up to and including fairly expensive Grados and Sound-Smith(s).  Both of these btw are moving iron, a different generation method than MMs, and as you go up into the stratosphere of pricing, some of these will need more gain than the Cube can do on the MM setting.

There are "high output" moving coils that are designed to be plugged right into a MM stage without additional gain, and many of these sound quite good.  So feel free to experiment with these.  Lower output coils will require additional gain, either through amplification (the Cube uses this for its high gain setting) or through a SUT.  There are many highly regarded (and potentially expensive) phono stages that use additional amplification stages to reach the 60+ dB gain needed for LO (low output) coils, so don't think of this method as inferior to SUTs - good SUTs are also expensive - just different.

To some degree, cartridges and phono stages are a matter of taste.  Is a Lyra Aetna better than a Koetsu Rosewood, or a Van Den Hul Calibri?  No, just different, each one highlights different criteria, and it takes some experience to know your own preferences.   The same can be said about phono stages.  Now, I just used some very expensive examples, but the picture is the same at the lower cost levels. 

Regarding the math, it can get pretty geeky when playing with SUTs, and that only gets you so far, but most manufacturers will help guide you, sometimes with specific cart / SUT recommendations.  If you really want to play with LO coils and SUTs, give "Bob's Devices" a call - he uses Cinemag transformers and can make specific solid recommendations.

Good luck.

[SteveRB]

Being new to analog, I am thinking about my next cartridge selection/direction(MM versus MC versus Strain Gauge).  I am starting with a couple of low cost Shure carts.  SC35C and M97xE. Both are MM I believe.  My phono pre is a Lehmann Audio Black Cube SE II.  If I stay with an MM, I will not need to think about active or passive adjustments.  I don't really understand the electronics involved in matching inputs and outputs yet.  Though I do understand it can make a big difference in sound and thus music appreciation/cartridge synergy with my system, etc. When I read on Vinyl Engine about this, I get a headache.  I wish I had taken more STEM courses as a kid!  Is there a short course somewhere?  Maybe?

Best Regards,

Blu99Zoomer

Budget is huge when getting started. Step Ups can start getting relatively expensive, and they do need to be matched to the cart and the phono stage: all this takes time and money. My suggestion, given the level of you gear and your inexperience, is to get a hold of a good MM cart and get to know it. Listen to it for a while (200 hours); you will hear it break in around 50 hours. Then try another cart from a different manufacture and get to know what aspects of each you like and don't like. There is no right answer here.

The Audio-Technica AT150MLX can be found on eBay for a good price and is an excellent moving magnet.

In my opinion the benefits of moving coil designs are best reaped when using them in higher-end systems. It takes experience to know what you're getting with each component.

[Blu99Zoomer]

Thanks guys for the great replies.  Each is an education that I obviously need.  But sincerely appreciate!  I have a lot to learn, but a lot of hopefully good listening ahead, too.  SteveRB, as Woodsyi pointed out, I have a Pioneer PLX-1000 direct drive turntable as a starting point.  I am not sure but don't think the arm is replaceable.  The two inexpensive MM cartridges that I have were intended as a start along the road so that I don't end up listening for a short time to a series of products that I end up not wanting in too short a time and list on AC at a discount for sale.  I know I am a perfectionist with too much OCD at heart(?at ear in this case;)?)  Don't get me wrong.  I am enjoying the listening that I have presently.  Each time I investigate something new that I have read about though, like the differences heard between the Denon 103(R) and the Zu 103(R), send me in search of more answers to new questions.  So I asked about SUT's and the part they play in quality sound reproduction.  I see that a good EAR MC4 step up can run $2K used here on AC.  So as Steve points out clearly, it can get expensive easily. 

It's the math part of the relationship between cartridge and phono stage that I am having a hard time wrapping my head around right now. It's easy to ask a dealer which one I need.  But I want to know in my own head why this one works but this one won't.  I am a tinkerer at heart I guess.  I understand that each SUT has a set relationship of input signal to output signal.  Correct?  1:10, 1:20, 1:40, etc.  So it's knowing how much gain each cartridge needs to get the best sound through the phono stage?  And knowing which figures to plug into the equation to get the best match? 

"matching compliance to your arm mass".  That's another question isn't it?  I understand that I don't understand that.  Is it more than a weight of the cartridge issue?  The table has its stock arm, yes.  The Black Cube SE II does have both MM and MC capabilities.  There are dip switches on the bottom of the unit.  So it is not infinitely variable in the load department as some are.  It does have a nice open sound without grunge in the background.  I have a RWA Signature 15 amp and a Benchmark DAC 2 HGC that allow a lot of detail through. 

BobRex and bacobits1 thanks for the thoughtful replies, too!

My budget can be flexible within limits as I am retired now.  I do not want to put all the eggs in one basket though.  I usually take a while for thinking and research before purchases. 

Best,

Blu

[audioguy213]

You seem to have gone down a rabbit hole.
You do not need a SUT at all,
there are about $20,000 that could be better spent on every single element of your system, before you even consider a SUT.
So the rest of the question is immaterial, don;t worry about it.

You are talking about a $600 TT
and a $59 cartridge, and asking about a $2,000 SUT that you don't even need.  That makes no sense.

The money would be better spent on a better table, or better cart, or better phono stage (though all of yours are fine and well matched),
it would be better spent on speakers, power cords, component isolation or a million other tweaks.

Your phono stage will ALREADY play well with your carts. 
If you want to invest, get a better cartridge once you know what you like sound-wise.

It's like you are asking about the best carbon fibre rear fin for a car that travels at 160mph, which you want to install on your minivan - the money would be better spent literally EVERYWHERE else in your system.

[BobRex]

Let's tackle compliance and arm matching.  Again, you can get overly complicated with this, but there are a few guidelines that make it simpler:
1) You can categorize arms into low mass, medium mass, and high mass.  Arm mass includes the headshell, and different headshells can affect your calculations.
2) Cartridges are typically low compliance (usually MCs), medium compliance, and high compliance (typically MMs, some MIs, and a few MCs)
3) The idea of matching is to get the horizontal and vertical resonances into the "ideal" zone of ~10 - 8 Hz.  This is a mathematical function of specified compliance and arm+ cartridge mass.  There are graphs available that do the math (available on vinyl engine).  In general, a high compliance cart requires a low to medium mass arm, while a low compliance cart should use a medium to high mass arm.  Vinyl engine is a great storehouse of arm and cartridge data; you can use that data to see how the graphs work and figure out what works with what.

Typically, turntables with captive arms have medium mass arms, and are designed to work well with a large variety of carts.  You can tune the resonances by switching headshells, or adding mass (putty, lead shot, different mass screws, a nickel  ) to the headshell.  Basically, unless you want to play with some of the more exotic carts (and I agree with audioguy213 - you've got other upgrades to consider first), you are good to go.

Does that help?

[woodsyi]

It's the math part of the relationship between cartridge and phono stage that I am having a hard time wrapping my head around right now. It's easy to ask a dealer which one I need.  But I want to know in my own head why this one works but this one won't.  I am a tinkerer at heart I guess.  I understand that each SUT has a set relationship of input signal to output signal.  Correct?  1:10, 1:20, 1:40, etc.  So it's knowing how much gain each cartridge needs to get the best sound through the phono stage?  And knowing which figures to plug into the equation to get the best match? 

Blu

Rabbit hole or not, here is an answer to the math behind SUTs.

http://www.vinylengine.com/step-ups-and-mc-cartridges.shtml

You have to boost your gain and match the impedance at the same time.  Impedance change is about a square of the ratio.  That's the math part.  Musically, at least in my experience, the SUTs give more seductive but darker presentation whereas active amps give brighter and seemingly more detailed rendition.   You can't say one is better or worse but one will work better with the rest of your system than the other. 

Synergy, baby.

Remember too that your can only hear what your least capable gear will allow.   Upgrading other stuff may not show any difference as long as the bottleneck is present.   

[Blu99Zoomer]

Hi All,

As Woodsyi is aware, I have been to Soundsmith, to talk with Mr. Ledermann about a possible cart purchase.  He played his Strain Gauge cartridge on an HRX table through his speakers.  He played Cecile McLorin Salvant's Woman Child lp.  I am very familiar with that disc.  Amazing!  Truly.  I had originally thought about upgrading my cart to a Carmen.  It had been favorably reviewed by H. Reichert in Stereophile a while back with the same Pioneer table.  I have done a lot of soul searching and self talk since that visit.  A Strain Gauge, which comes with its own matched preamp, is several times the cost of a Carmen alone, different technology, but sounds so sweet with the instruments and singing on that lp through his gear.  Talk about a rabbit hole!  This hobby is more closely related to the proverbial "money pit" than a rabbit hole.  I had gray hair before I started my system building thoughts.  I am sure I will have a whole lot less of it before I get where I need to be.  But I do want to enjoy the ride getting there.  So I very much appreciate all of your input and suggestions and the listening and reading I do during. 

Today I looked at the websites of several companies who do make SUT's including Bob's Devices.  Rothwell and K&K both have very interesting reading also.  Coincidentally, when I spoke with Zu a while back about their carts, I got a link to the K&K site for their nice looking Maxxed Out Phono Stage.  I did go back to Vinyl Engine to try reading it's information again, also.  The above SUT building companies each use a different  company's transformer.  Many more folks use Phono stages than use SUT's with MM stages it seems.  Interesting.  As audioguy points out though, I could spend money on many other things to make the sound of my system more to my liking before I think about SUT's.  I agree.  But in this case, I am just thinking and trying to learn about them.  That is what we do here on this site I believe.  Learn.  So that when and if I get to the point where I should get one, I won't have to post again for your help.  Hopefully.

BobRex, I thank you for your sharing in little, easier for me to grasp bites.  I will go back to VE and look at the graphs.  I seem to remember looking at them when I first thought about the Pioneer.  It's relatively new so there wasn't a lot on its arm mass at that time.  Maybe now there will be more...

Best,

Blu

[bacobits1]

Blu, what is the rest of your system if I may ask?

Peter makes great stuff , but strain gauge at 8 k+ is exotic specialty and way
overkill on that pioneer and maybe the whole system. You may not have been thinking in that direction anyway.
I would look at  a
Dynavector 10x 5 a nice high output mc's and would work well with the Lehman phono.

[Blu99Zoomer]

Hey bacobits1,

I have Tekton Design Enzo speakers, a RWA Signature 15 amp, presently playing the Lehmann into a Benchmark DAC 2  HGC.  I have a Primaluna Prologue Premium preamp but am not using it at the moment.  It's for those times when I need a change.  The interconnects are Blue Jean Cables.  I like the "synergy", as Woodsyi says, of the system.  It's sound is music to my ears.  This exploration is about learning what I am missing in this set up and where I could go next.  Thanks for the recommendation on the Dynavector 10X5.  I have heard good things about their products in general from several sources.  Tempting.  The Strain Gauge would be a huge step up for me.  Something I could move to another table for sure if I decided to go with it.  Loved the sound in the Soundsmith listening room!

Best,

Blu

[bacobits1]

Nice,I wouldn't change anything if you have that "synergy" you could lose it easily.
Been there done that only to change something else to get it back or try to anyway. You could go for wires and get an increase but the cart is all I would mess with. Buy music!

I like to change things up too so we' re all in da rabbit hole.
My most recent change to a Schiit Yggdrasil DAC has been the most satisfying in quite some time.

[audioguy213]

Hey bacobits1,

I have Tekton Design Enzo speakers, a RWA Signature 15 amp, presently playing the Lehmann into a Benchmark DAC 2  HGC.  I have a Primaluna Prologue Premium preamp but am not using it at the moment.  It's for those times when I need a change.  The interconnects are Blue Jean Cables.  I like the "synergy", as Woodsyi says, of the system.  It's sound is music to my ears.  This exploration is about learning what I am missing in this set up and where I could go next.  Thanks for the recommendation on the Dynavector 10X5.  I have heard good things about their products in general from several sources.  Tempting.  The Strain Gauge would be a huge step up for me.  Something I could move to another table for sure if I decided to go with it.  Loved the sound in the Soundsmith listening room!

Best,

Blu

It's your money, and if you literally light up a pile of 100's before you get out of bed (maybe you sleep on a pile of them) in the morning this may all make sense.

Otherwise, you are making a big mistake and your dealer "friend" is really taking advantage of you.

It is ludicrous beyond suggestion to put $8k in cartridge on a $600 table with your ancillary components.

What you ARE NOT missing is an $8k cartridge you don't need.  Seriously.

I am sure it sounded great in his store.  Buying those items would be a huge waste of your money.  If you spend more than $300 on a cartridge at this point, you are putting the money in the wrong place.

There is absolutely no system in the world that would benefit from an $8k cartridge before a speaker upgrade,

And that cartridge would be totally wasted in your system.  It just makes NO sense.

I admire your enthusiasm, and if this thread was "what is the most expensive phono cart that I don't need" I would cheer you along in your quest,

but since you seem to actually want to know what wil benefit you - doing this won't.

You actually found something even more unnecessary than a $2000 SUT, now you are onto an $8000 cart.

If this is just some thought exercise, go for it.  If this is reality talking, you are getting further from the real world with every post.

[Blu99Zoomer]

audioguy213,

You are too funny!  I like how folks here keep that sense of perspective about themselves.  I don't wish to sleep on a pile of twenties.  Probably lumpy like the Princess and the Pea play.  I'd just like to use the few I have/get to their best mileage.  I know I will get different responses for that one too.  I get it.  I apologize if I have offended anyone by my comments.  We are talking about audio here.  Giving to others in need gives us other good feelings.  We are all entitled to our own opinions and perspectives.  I guess I still get ludicrous sometimes and don't realize what I have. A walk out around the barn or a long hike in the woods to get some fresh air gives perspective for me. So if I don't respond right away to comments...Going to a third world country sure showed me how great this country is.  Listening to another set up makes me wonder what mine would sound like with some of that gear.  But I appreciate your perspective.  I once thought that getting a pair of Magnepan 1.7's would do me well.  I have a 14x14 room with 7'6" ceilings to listen in.  Those sure sounded nice.  I think more clarity than the Enzos.  But then I am definitely talking a new amp(s).  Instead of hundreds, your original figure of $20k would be a good start.  I think I would move up to a VPI Classic Signature like the one that was for sale here recently.  The rosewood looked sweet!  Then the Strain Gauge?

bacobits1,

After reading so many comments here about loosing ones system synergy, that I definitely don't want to do.  One of the reasons I change things slowly and only after a lot of careful research and thinking.    I have heard the Schiit Yggrasil once through Mr. Speakers Alpha Primes and his Ethers.  Very nice DAC reasonably priced. 

Best,

Blu

[audioguy213]

audioguy213,

You are too funny!  I like how folks here keep that sense of perspective about themselves.  I don't wish to sleep on a pile of twenties.  Probably lumpy like the Princess and the Pea play.  I'd just like to use the few I have/get to their best mileage.  I know I will get different responses for that one too.  I get it.  I apologize if I have offended anyone by my comments.  We are talking about audio here.  Giving to others in need gives us other good feelings.  We are all entitled to our own opinions and perspectives.  I guess I still get ludicrous sometimes and don't realize what I have. A walk out around the barn or a long hike in the woods to get some fresh air gives perspective for me. So if I don't respond right away to comments...Going to a third world country sure showed me how great this country is.  Listening to another set up makes me wonder what mine would sound like with some of that gear.  But I appreciate your perspective.  I once thought that getting a pair of Magnepan 1.7's would do me well.  I have a 14x14 room with 7'6" ceilings to listen in.  Those sure sounded nice.  I think more clarity than the Enzos.  But then I am definitely talking a new amp(s).  Instead of hundreds, your original figure of $20k would be a good start.  I think I would move up to a VPI Classic Signature like the one that was for sale here recently.  The rosewood looked sweet!  Then the Strain Gauge?

I come across wrong in text.  You are not upsetting me, but you are scaring me.  I see my own enthusiasm and lack of financial restraint in you, and I would like to avoid you making a mistake.  I don;t mind spending your money though - I just think I can spend it better than you 

The issue is mileage and proper system balance,

OK - ideal $6-10k system
you have it, already dude!
your speakers, your amp, your cables, your table, and a sub$400 cart- that is it.
if there is synergy, then be happy.
Try a denon 103 cart, or the modified Zu carts

check out the stereophile review of this table and see the carts he uses-
http://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-4#5jrSAqsyBh3Of2T7.97

Or, check out his favorite cartridge on this table:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-3-shure-sc35c#edjb1zkXt9M5ZyZU.97
Um, yes, they like a $35 cartridge, why not try it? You say you have that one, I would just stick with it.



Now, if you want to build an ideal $90k system, then maybe the cartridge you suggest would fit,
But it would require a significant upgrade to every other system component.


I think you want something in between.  Anything in between - any upgrade, is better spent elsewhere than on going above $400 on a cartridge,


I know in absolute terms the cart you heard at the dealer may be magnificent, but your other gear is simply not up to hearing it.

Your square room is not ideal, make sure you look at room treatments (under $500).
Do you use power conditioning? An UberBuss will bring more benefits for $1000 than putting that money into a cartridge above $400 would.
Bluejeans cables are a GREAT budget cable.  But if you want to improve your system to the next level, try a superior loom of Triode Labs Cables, $2k to kit you up probably.
Your speakers are good enough, but you should be buying an $8k pair of speakers LONG before you spend anything more on a cartridge.


I am not saying you are a jerk for having a lot of disposable income, nor am I saying don;t spend it.
I say, let's get busy spending your money right!
That dealer is misleading you,


YES- let;s talk about a VPI table,
or Merrill Poly Table is really nice on a budget!

let's talk about maybe a phono stage upgrade in your future (The black cube is very fine though, no rush on that).
those speakers need an upgrade.  I wonder what a pair of Deadalus speakers would sound like in their place... I would spend my money there.
You want to try maggies, let's get a pair and a subwoofer in there and see how they sound.

Bluejeans cables could use a bump, the next level brings more ease, liquidity, etc.

Are you isolating your components ($200 on herbies feet dots, etc. please, stat!).


It's like, taking what you have and putting a $8k cartridge in there, or a $2k SUT, you WILL NOT hear the real benefits, it would be a waste of your money and a waste of the gear.

That same $8k could completely transform your listening experience if used elsewhere (in your system mind you, I am not saying you have to give it to orphans in the Congo or take a spirit journey with it).

 I am trying to help you like you were a relative that asked me for advice, rather than just indulging your fancy.


Before you add an $8k cart to your system, we should take it apart, sell it off, and build you a $20k+ system that would take advantage of a pricey-er cart. But nothing else you have currently would make it into that system, you see - slippery slope!

----
Let me try to give you another analogy,

if we were talking about wine, it would be like you asking for the best decanter in the world. You have a $100 bottle of wine, and you want the $8000 decanter.  Ultimately, you want the best $8100 experience - I think.

But in reality almost any open, glass vessel, from a mason jar to a lab beaker might decant the wine just as well for $6.  I too want you to have the best $8100 experience.  So, I want you to stick with the $6 decanter (or go crazy, spend $180 on a reidel), but let's put most of that $8100 into a better bottle of WINE.

The analogy doesn't quite hold because wine is disposable while the decanter is forever, and I want you to invest in audio gear not in concert tickets, but still...

[neobop]

Blu99,
For a different perspective check this out:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=139394.0

I assume you have record and stylus cleaning covered.  If so, why don't you take it one step at a time and learn as you go?  Put a better cart on your table and find out what you like. 

The Black Cube has a high gain stage (for LOMC), is yours a newer less expensive version w/o it? 
I suspect your table will take you a long way, but you could always replace it if and when you think that's the way to go. 
neo

[woodsyi]

I come across wrong in text.  You are not upsetting me, but you are scaring me.  I see my own enthusiasm and lack of financial restraint in you, and I would like to avoid you making a mistake.  I don;t mind spending your money though - I just think I can spend it better than you 

The issue is mileage and proper system balance......

Audioguy is spot on the money.  But he is wrong about the 8k cart.  Strain Gauge is both a cart and a phonostage and can also be a line stage for other sources (depending on the model).  Still, his main point is right on the money.  I think there was a thread on ideal percentage (price wise) for each component in a system.  I think the most important and the first best gear to get in a system is the speakers.  Whatever you do upstream, it won't matter if your speakers are not up to it because you won't hear the difference.

I would start at a cartridge.  Wasn't there a fairly good review on a Ortofon 2M Red for less than $100?

[neobop]

I would start at a cartridge.  Wasn't there a fairly good review on a Ortofon 2M Red for less than $100?

IMO that's ridiculous.  OP already has an M97 and a DJ cart.  What's the objective to try every entry level cart?  What's needed is a little education and some experience. 

You don't need a SUT.  There are 2 basic kinds of carts, high (HO) and low (LO) output - relating to output voltage.  Most HO carts require about 40dB of gain supplied by a moving magnet (MM) preamp.  LO carts require more gain, approx. 20dB, typically supplied by an additional preamp gain stage or SUT or head amp. 
Your Black Cube SE II has up to 66dB gain. 

I suspect your table will do justice to a variety of good carts and that's what you should be exploring IMO.  If you get a strain gauge you won't need the Black Cube.  Maybe you should start more modestly and get some more experience?
neo

[bacobits1]

You guys are tough. Nothing wrong with the Tekton speakers.
I would in this order change the Cart, Wires, then Table, and DAC.
Probably biggest bang fo the buck. The front end.
Definitely no 8k cartridge/phono combo. That's a stupid waste as stated.
Absolutely no need to spend 20k to get a beautiful synergy.