Relevance of Having Both After Market Power Cords and Power Conditioners

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Osadu

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I do perfectly understand that power conditioners condition (filter) the filthy power signal coming into our audio rooms.  I also do understand that why we audiophiles throw away the stock power cords and purchase super duper power cords that are supposed to filter the power signal coming into our audio rooms.  If the two devices are performing the same function, why buy both? There may be a cumulative benefit, but is the "marginal" benefit of having both as opposed to having one worth the exorbitant cost?  Alternatively, if the power conditioner does its job well, couldn't we just use the stock power cord from the power conditioner to the audio component?  All thoughts will be appreciated.

Tone Depth

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Great question! Will anyone commit to saying either their power cords or conditioners aren't necessary? lol

Armaegis

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A decent cord will minimize crap from getting in, but it will not be able to magically remove the bad mojo that's already in there.

restrav

A decent cord will minimize crap from getting in, but it will not be able to magically remove the bad mojo that's already in there.

a decent cord most certainly doesn't do that. if anything a great 99.9999999% conductor presserves the crap better and beings 99.9999999% of the crap to the device.

Folsom

Because neither are a brick wall. The only way to stop any noise from getting into your system is to unplug it and put it in a faraday cage inside a thick metal box and never turn it on.

Noise has voltage. Voltage can only be divided when you're decreasing it - unless it's entirely off. This means that no matter how many filters and powercords you have there's always some left over. How much? Well it can be reduced down to very small amounts. And every bit counts when it comes to an audio system.

So the more things dividing the noise voltage off the hot AC wire the better!

Plus it's a hair bit more complicated because your equipment generates noise that it can share with other equipment. Also you gain noise from the air, especially around equipment. So it's actually very advantageous to have powercords that reduce noise especially since different types of conditioners do more and less for reducing mingling between the equipment with noise.

Folsom

a decent cord most certainly doesn't do that. if anything a great 99.9999999% conductor presserves the crap better and beings 99.9999999% of the crap to the device.

No, no, and no. I suggest you edit your post, and I'll edit this one to remove so a blatantly untrue post.

This represents a complete non-understanding of how things like mutual inductance, shielding, capacitance, resistance, EMI, etc...

Here's something to start your education on the subject.

wilsonij

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So the more things dividing the noise voltage off the hot AC wire the better!

Firstly, huge thanks for commenting what can be a tricky subject... :-)

...and secondly, what do you think is the order of Cost-Benefit ? As I understand it, the path goes something like...

1. dedicated spur (for whole audio system)
2. mains conditioner (shared across low current devices only)
3. power cord (for each item - eg. pre-amp, cd player, streamer, DAC, etc)

Instinctively I'm thinking that I would do #1, then #2 and only then #3 (ie. as funds allow) but is that correct ?

And are some devices 'more' susceptible than others ? For example, I'm thinking the pre-amp stage would be the top of the list to tackle because "everything else" goes through it...

Cheers !

Ian

Folsom

I think 1 and 2 can be mixed depending on budget and device you intend to use. Since I've become interested in JPS in-wall wire, at the average cost $1200 for the wire, it's not necessarily the cheapest part if you're doing that and can't do the work yourself.

And I see no reason to only use a conditioner with low current devices. It entirely depends on the devices and conditioner for compatibility. I admit it's not an easy thing to figure out because most manufacturers don't actually know...

Marius


This represents a complete non-understanding of how things like mutual inductance, shielding, capacitance, resistance, EMI, etc...

Here's something to start your education on the subject.


Hi Folsom,


Must admit i didn't realize before, but the many utp (below cat 7) cables in our setups could be serious noise sources. Replacing these with cat 7 is a cheap thing to do to minimize electric noise coming from them? Also taking away the need for much more expensive 'high-end' cabling, power or source. Also a great way of color-coding the cables ;-) http://www.netwerkkabel.eu/cat7-kabels/


Cheers and thanks for reminding me!
Marius

Folsom

I wouldn't recommend CAT wire. They use it as an example (to an annoying extent) in that article, but twisting is important generally for all wire.

Marius

of course i only meant Cat7 cabling for network cables, not for audio or power cables. CAt7 instead of the lower versions.


I wouldn't recommend CAT wire. They use it as an example (to an annoying extent) in that article, but twisting is important generally for all wire.

restrav

No, no, and no. I suggest you edit your post, and I'll edit this one to remove so a blatantly untrue post.

This represents a complete non-understanding of how things like mutual inductance, shielding, capacitance, resistance, EMI, etc...

Here's something to start your education on the subject.

i knew everything in the link. i know what crosstalk is and what shielding does and what EMI is. minimizing crosstalk or other deficiencies of the AC transmission path is not the same as fixing a garbage AC signal. they are saying a cable can fix bad AC. bad AC means an AC that has DC in it. one where the requency is not what it is supposed to be. no reason to edit. im not saying there is nothing to do about EMI, im saying a piece of copper with shield does not fix an AC signal which is intermittent.

Speedskater

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Yes there can be isolated situations with power line problems, but most audiophiles that chose well designed hi-fi equipment should not have to resort to power conditioners or exotic power cords.

Photon46

Against my better judgement, I can't stop myself from weighing in on this topic. I've been involved with audio for more than forty years and my systems have changed and evolved as my tastes (and income) have "matured." :lol: At the point in the audio industry's evolution where power conditioning and cords became a new product category, I was very much an "objectivist" demanding scientific rationals for every power conditioning product before I'd even consider trying it. I was one of those who felt well designed and chosen products shouldn't require or need power cords or conditioning. Something dangerous to my pocketbook then happened, I started actually listening to those type of products in spite of my belief system. There was no doubt that power conditioning products had the capacity to change the character of an audio system. As has been noted and debated endlessly by those who actually listen to these products in a variety of system contexts, whether the changes are for good or negative are open to debate and subjective. Depends on the system and the listener's tastes. The belief that "well designed equipment doesn't need after market cords or conditioning" could be limiting a system's potential because it is possible that a particular component ticks all the boxes in your listening preferences list but could still be improved FURTHER by a better power cord or conditioning. Products are designed to a price point and adding aftermarket cords and internal power conditioning to a product would add an additional expense that might or might not dovetail with a given buyers preferences. Some buyers might prefer more emphasis on various parts on the tonal spectrum, some might prefer more "air" and ambient clue retrieval, etc. Interactions with paired components in the system, differences in listening rooms, and individual preferences all impact those sorts of decisions.

There are innumerable places on the internet where one can read manufacturer's rationals for various aspects of designing power conditioning and cords. I tend to put more emphasis on what my ears tell me as opposed to what the manufacturer's rational might be. Mainly because a lot of the claims made seem difficult to truly verify by objective science. That said, I wouldn't to go back to the point in the audio timeline when I couldn't fine tune my system's performance with power products. I suppose to my way of thinking, they aren't "necessary" but they do provide the means to bring out another level of hidden performance. Now, one could certainly make the argument that money spent on power cords and conditioning would be better spent on a higher level of component. That's a valid argument and everyone has to make their own value judgments about that. In my experience, some products like Audience power conditioners and Wireworld power cords, have improved so many different component's performance across so many price points, that they are easy to recommend as a potential good upgrade for many systems. I'd never say any product was good for "all" systems because there's ALWAYS going to be an opinion outlier.

In the end, one can jawbone about the topic endlessly but the only way someone can truly settle the argument for themselves is to actually try a few products in their system. You can buy a few used power cords or power conditioners, experiment, make up your own mind. If it doesn't work for you or seem worthwhile, you can sell them for little to no loss but your time. Any other method is speculation.

restrav

very well put. i never sad power conditioning is not helpful. i work in  a physics lab and a lot of our sensitive measuring equipment wouldn't functoin right without power conditioning. Im saying power cord doesnt fix anything that is broken, which should be obvious to everyone one except maybe someone who gets his info from the MIT cable brochure.

James Tanner

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Bryston BIT Isolation Transformer Motivation

The concern Bryston had with a lot of power line conditioners available in the market was that many of them could restrict the current available to the amplifier. An amplifier can draw very high peak current, and wants to 'see' a very low impedance high current source from the power line. In fact, we even stated in our owners manuals not to plug our amplifiers into power conditioners. The Transformer based line conditioners we tested were too small to supply the peak current required and many of them were just Filters and did not provide Isolation -(Isolation means there is no mechanical connection between the outside power grid and your inside system power supply).

Also most of the surge protection was done using MOV’s, which are sacrificial and eventually will be destroyed with repeated spikes. Other issues with these MOVs is that they allow much more voltage through before they reacted (typically 300 volts and higher) and they shunt the voltage spikes to ground. So we decided to try and develop a powerline Conditioner, Isolation and Protection unit that would not have the restrictions of the many units currently on the market from an amplifier performance perspective.

Benefits of Bryston BIT Power Isolation Units:

Benefit #1: Very low source impedance and high current for the power amplifier

BRYTSTON  power isolation units present low impedance to any electronic device that is connected to them. A Single 20 amp BIT PIU has an output impedance of 0.2 ohms and can deliver 400 amp peaks (instantaneous current). The 100 amp unit only has .04 Ohms of output impedance. A typical 200 watt audio power amplifier demands 10 amps RMS current from a 120 volt line (1200VA) but may demand up to 50 amp instantaneous peaks. The standard residential wall receptacle can't supply the 50 amp peaks because they typically have higher nominal impedance. A BIT 20 amp PIU plugged into the same wall plug can supply these peak current requirements quite easily.

Benefit #2: Power surge protection using Series Mode Surge Suppression rather than MOV's

The BIT power products use the finest, most elaborate surge suppression technology available. Series Mode Surge Suppression does not shunt the spike to ground like MOV's do, and therefore the ground is infinitely more stable in a BIT power device. Additionally, most MOV-based surge suppression units allow as much as 300 volts through to the protected components, easily enough to do substantial damage, where as BIT surge suppression has clamping voltage onset of around 2V above peak nominal voltage. BIT units are built to meet 6000 volts, 3000 amps at 1000 repeats standard.

Benefit #3: Total isolation from outside power grid

BIT power products provide isolation through its finest designed toroidal transformer between the outside power grid and the devices being protected. Such isolation helps to reject external noise sources such as motors, lights, and dimmers commonly found in the home environment. BIT power products provide noise filtering at a range from approximately 2000Hz to over 1MHz – other regular transformer based products do not start operating until nearly 10,000 Hz.

Benefit #4: High Power Capability

There are 15 models of BIT power products available ranging from 15 amps to 100 amps and 120/240 Volts.

Benefit# 5: Low Noise

Bryston BIT products utilize ‘LONO’ (Low Noise) transformer design technology that eliminates audible noise in the power transformer regardless of line conditions, DC offset and over-voltage. BIT products perform at the NC10 level measured on the standard NC (Noise Criteria) – which makes them suitable for use in very quiet environments such as professional recording and broadcast studios.

Benefit # 6: Cleaner Power

Bryston BIT products utilize “NBT” (Narrow Bandwidth Technology) to attenuate differential and common-mode noise without external circuits or components, and starting at a lower corner frequency (2Khz) than other systems. The BIT result is startling – see press and user comments!

Benefit # 7: AVR (optional automatic voltage regulation)

The new feature is Automatic Voltage Regulator (AVR). The AVR would make sure that the output voltage of the unit stays uniform within an acceptable range when the input voltage is either increased from or dropped below the acceptable range.The purpose is to keep the output voltage uniform when the input voltage varies over a wide range from 130V to 95V for the North American models and 260V to 190V for the International models and to shut the system down if the input voltage goes above 135V or below 90V for North American models and above 270V or below 180 for the International models.

James Tanner,
Bryston

Armaegis

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...and secondly, what do you think is the order of Cost-Benefit ? As I understand it, the path goes something like...

1. dedicated spur (for whole audio system)
2. mains conditioner (shared across low current devices only)
3. power cord (for each item - eg. pre-amp, cd player, streamer, DAC, etc)


Before any of that, it is more helpful to determine what are the sources of noise in the first place. Lights are one of the worst culprits: dimmer switches, CFL and LED bulbs are all potential sources of noise. Most AC/DC wallwarts are as well. Big appliances (air conditioner, fridges, etc) can get ugly at times.

A dedicated circuit breaker is more of a thing that you build a house around, unless you're already planning a major reno. It also won't do squat if you've got noise on the entire neighbourhood grid.

A power cord is not going to be able to magically remove any noise, and if you're worried about it somehow picking up noise in that 6ft length from the wall when you've already got a hundred feet going through the house, then you're better off reconsidering the layout/length of your other cables.

Marius

Before any of that, it is more helpful to determine what are the sources of noise in the first place. Lights are one of the worst culprits: dimmer switches, CFL and LED bulbs are all potential sources of noise. Most AC/DC wallwarts are as well. Big appliances (air conditioner, fridges, etc) can get ugly at times.



Other than allegedly hearing this noise in the final reproduction of our music, is there some kind of tool, meter, to measure this somewhat scientifically? some sort of geiger counter, one can hold near the system, or the cables, and test for noise?

Ive got heaps of cable, i hope in a good balance of cost and isolation...., but still, a mess really. No matter if they are isolated well, and not picking up from each other. But id like to measure that, and see, if possible.

Marius

wilsonij

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is there some kind of tool, meter, to measure this somewhat scientifically? some sort of geiger counter, one can hold near the system, or the cables, and test for noise?

Agreed ! Such a device would be invaluable... :-)

Ian

Armaegis

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I have no affiliation with either of these guys, and have zero experience with their products:
http://www.stetzerelectric.com/
http://www.greenwavefilters.com/
But these two as far as I know are the two main commercially available EMI detectors and filters in the US. Note that they deal more specifically with emitted electrical noise, not what's necessarily in the power line itself.

Some of it feels like it starts to veer in quackery, but hey that's for you to decide. Numbers and beeping machines make for convincing arguments when you don't truly know the meaning behind them.

I don't know of anyone who's tried this stuff or seen how it relates to audio. Who wants to volunteer for the greater good?  :thumb: