Omega driver in horn enclosure

OmahawkSCM · « **on:** 21 Mar 2016, 03:43 am »

This seems too obvious to ask……but why don't they use the speakers in a horn enclosure?

That would immediately aid in bass response, which is the only thing I don't like about my Omegas 3T's.

DaveC113 · « **Reply #1 on:** 21 Mar 2016, 05:42 am »

Back loaded horns sound awful, the bass is disjointed. I've heard only one exception, the Lamhorn which is for 8" drivers. It's a very expensive cabinet.

roscoe65 · « **Reply #2 on:** 21 Mar 2016, 10:54 am »

So back loaded horns sound awful except when they don't? The fact that you've heard one exception means that not all back loaded horns sound awful.

There are times we need to put aside our own prejudices and accept that things that aren't "supposed" to work sometimes work very well.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=114976.0

JLM · « **Reply #3 on:** 21 Mar 2016, 11:35 am »

What makes you think that horn loading would help in bass response? Are you thinking of increased dynamics or deeper response?

Horns (front or rear loaded) play better with low Qts (typically around 0.2) drivers. Sealed/ported enclosures work best with Qts drivers around 0.4. Open baffles work best with 0.8 Qts drivers. Since Louis doesn't publish specifications of his currently available drivers it's near impossible for the lay person to "design" a different cabinet type and have it work well. Based on the given applications I'd guess his drivers Qts are around 0.4.

Horns can sound magnificent, be highly efficient, and extremely dynamic but they usually have excessive colorations due to insufficiently braced panels (bracing is critical in horns as the back pressures are much higher than in sealed/ported designs) and pushing the efficiency factor too hard (via shape factors). And to go really deep they must be huge (refrigerator to garage sized and with the required bracing can weigh tons - as in reinforced concrete). Note that Louis started out building exclusively stand-mounts to save shipping cost/damage.

As a common example, look to the 3-way Klipschorns. Only rated down to 32 Hz, the size of a small refrigerator, very complicated to build, very heavy, and very expensive yet still requires 2 adjoining corners with 9 ft of clear wall space on both sides of each to develop the last "cabinet" walls and some of the panels are still poorly braced while there is significant signal delay between midrange/tweeter and the woofer.

The best use of horns I've seen is for midrange/tweeters.

DaveC113 · « **Reply #4 on:** 21 Mar 2016, 04:16 pm »

Quote from: roscoe65 on 21 Mar 2016, 10:54 am

So back loaded horns sound awful except when they don't? The fact that you've heard one exception means that not all back loaded horns sound awful.

There are times we need to put aside our own prejudices and accept that things that aren't "supposed" to work sometimes work very well.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=114976.0

Lol, not prejudices. EXPERIENCE. Sorry I shared my own experiences listening to over a dozen BLH designs. But the truth is the truth, they suck. The Lamhorn isn't really a true BLH, the path length is much shorter which is the main reason they don't suck. Any true BLH type speaker is going to suck and there's a good reason for it, the bass doesn't sound right, which ruins the rest of the experience. Simple as that.

mick wolfe · « **Reply #5 on:** 21 Mar 2016, 04:56 pm »

Quote from: OmahawkSCM on 21 Mar 2016, 03:43 am

This seems too obvious to ask……but why don't they use the speakers in a horn enclosure?

That would immediately aid in bass response, which is the only thing I don't like about my Omegas 3T's.

My guess is that it's probably easier ( if not for synergy alone) to add an Omega powered sub.( or 2) ....rather than construct a large complex cabinet that might bury the magic of the 5rs driver.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #6 on:** 21 Mar 2016, 05:04 pm »

Quote from: OmahawkSCM on 21 Mar 2016, 03:43 am

This seems too obvious to ask……but why don't they use the speakers in a horn enclosure?

That would immediately aid in bass response, which is the only thing I don't like about my Omegas 3T's.

I would like to see an Omega 7 factory released in a Flugal Horn.

OmahawkSCM · « **Reply #7 on:** 22 Mar 2016, 03:31 am »

Wait, pretty sure I used the wrong term. I meant to say transmission line, lol.

We just had a baby less than a month ago and I'm sleep deprived.

pstrisik · « **Reply #8 on:** 22 Mar 2016, 04:16 am »

Quote from: OmahawkSCM on 22 Mar 2016, 03:31 am

Wait, pretty sure I used the wrong term. I meant to say transmission line, lol.

We just had a baby less than a month ago and I'm sleep deprived.

Emily Litella!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3FnpaWQJO0

(In good fun

)

......Peter

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #9 on:** 22 Mar 2016, 11:26 am »

Quote from: OmahawkSCM on 22 Mar 2016, 03:31 am

Wait, pretty sure I used the wrong term. I meant to say transmission line, lol.

We just had a baby less than a month ago and I'm sleep deprived.

SMT 6/7'' Omega drivers dont works in transmission lines due QTS too low, but they work in horns if QTS=0.2/0.3
TL require QTS about 0.6, however consult Canada Rob for a final word.

JLM · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 Mar 2016, 11:45 am »

Ah, that makes more sense. His drivers should be a good fit for transmission lines (TL). But without knowing the driver specifications it would be impossible to "design" TL for them without creating piles of sawdust.

Until Martin King developed a MathCad computer application, there was no way to design TL on paper. But the math involved is not simple and still involves trial and error to arrive at a proper solution. Note that Jim Salk hires out his TL design work. Check out BrinesAcoustics.com to get a taste of the MathCad design behind TL. I commissioned Bob to build the first M18-F200 speaker (still my babies but the veneer has gotten darker since the image on his site was taken 11 years ago). I've been a fan of TL since Irving (Bud) Fried in the 70's. The bass can be very fast, musical, and powerful. With single drivers the midrange can be cleaned up too with the back-wave being directed away from the driver (cabinet geometry dependent).

Some mention the added complexity of the cabinet, but it's no more so than what's required with proper bracing. (The only speaker cabinets I ever built were TL.) TL typically are somewhat larger than ported designs. As I mentioned above Louis started out doing just stand-mounts to save shipping cost/damage. If you're trying to add bass to Louis' smallest design, I'd add a sub or buy a bigger model. I've seen small TL (Fried Model C that was a truncated pyramid, very complex to build, but very impressive sound/bass). TBI builds extremely small cubic speakers (Majestic Diamond I & IR) they call TL that supposedly delivers amazingly deep bass from a single very small driver and is supposed to be very placement flexible, but I've never heard it.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #11 on:** 22 Mar 2016, 01:10 pm »

JLM these are the 7A TS do you would calc if it do TL?
Re - 7.2 ohm
Fs - 43.585 Hz
Sd - 134.782cm2
Md - 2 grams
BL - 4.971T-M
Qms - 2.030
Qes - 0.430
Qts - 0.355
No - 1.186%
SPL - 93dB
VAS - 63.770Liters
Cms - 2.47 2m M/N
Krm - 242.164 ohm
Erm - 0.979
Mms - 5.394 grams
Mmd - 4.494 grams
Kxm - 20.332 mH
Ekm - 0.585

OmahawkSCM · « **Reply #12 on:** 22 Mar 2016, 06:57 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 22 Mar 2016, 11:45 am

If you're trying to add bass to Louis' smallest design, I'd add a sub or buy a bigger model. I've seen small TL (Fried Model C that was a truncated pyramid, very complex to build, but very impressive sound/bass). TBI builds extremely small cubic speakers (Majestic Diamond I & IR) they call TL that supposedly delivers amazingly deep bass from a single very small driver and is supposed to be very placement flexible, but I've never heard it.

I already have a really good sub, the Rhythmik F12. The bass is super. I couldn't ask for more in my 11x12x9 room. I've just always wondered what it would sound like coming from a true point source. I understand that lower frequencies aren't very directional. Still, I want to simplify my system with a low watt tube powering full range speakers (instead of the current SS amp and sub setup).

Canada Rob · « **Reply #13 on:** 22 Mar 2016, 07:17 pm »

In all likelihood, a low watt pure class A SET with zero negative feedback, thus low damping factor, will increase the bass output (on your Super 3Ts) over a solid state amp (which will almost always have a higher damping factor). If you're thinking of going to the above type of tube amp (like an SE84UFO), you might want to try that first before buying or doing anything else.

Contrary to what some may think, I have no commercial interest in American Decware sales. I'm just trying to save you some possible steps in your pursuit of improved sound, especially if you have a tube amp in your sights anyway.

pstrisik · « **Reply #14 on:** 22 Mar 2016, 07:47 pm »

Quote from: OmahawkSCM on 22 Mar 2016, 06:57 pm

I already have a really good sub, the Rhythmik F12. The bass is super. I couldn't ask for more in my 11x12x9 room. I've just always wondered what it would sound like coming from a true point source. I understand that lower frequencies aren't very directional. Still, I want to simplify my system with a low watt tube powering full range speakers (instead of the current SS amp and sub setup).

What extension and damping settings do you have on your F12? Particularly if you have been used to 14hz/high damping, you may not be satisfied with the bass from any full range speaker. It will be different for sure - less low, less tight. If this is the case (14/high), I'd suggest an experiement - Try 28hz/mid or low damping, which would be closer to a tube amp powering a full range speaker, and see how it sounds and how you adapt.

.......Peter

OmahawkSCM · « **Reply #15 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 03:16 am »

Quote from: Canada Rob on 22 Mar 2016, 07:17 pm

In all likelihood, a low watt pure class A SET with zero negative feedback, thus low damping factor, will increase the bass output (on your Super 3Ts) over a solid state amp (which will almost always have a higher damping factor). If you're thinking of going to the above type of tube amp (like an SE84UFO), you might want to try that first before buying or doing anything else.

Contrary to what some may think, I have no commercial interest in American Decware sales. I'm just trying to save you some possible steps in your pursuit of improved sound, especially if you have a tube amp in your sights anyway.

Trust me, you are not the first to recommend Decware. That seems to be the "go to" amp for many. Thanks for the heads up.

OmahawkSCM · « **Reply #16 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 03:18 am »

Quote from: pstrisik on 22 Mar 2016, 07:47 pm

What extension and damping settings do you have on your F12? Particularly if you have been used to 14hz/high damping, you may not be satisfied with the bass from any full range speaker. It will be different for sure - less low, less tight. If this is the case (14/high), I'd suggest an experiement - Try 28hz/mid or low damping, which would be closer to a tube amp powering a full range speaker, and see how it sounds and how you adapt.

.......Peter

Ya know? I did not even know what damping I had it set to. I made the decision when I got the sub, and never looked again, lol. I just checked. It has been at 14hz and Mid. I just changed it to 28hz and Lo. I will let it run like this for a while and report back.

Thanks for the info.

pstrisik · « **Reply #17 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 03:48 am »

Quote from: OmahawkSCM on 23 Mar 2016, 03:18 am

Ya know? I did not even know what damping I had it set to. I made the decision when I got the sub, and never looked again, lol. I just checked. It has been at 14hz and Mid. I just changed it to 28hz and Lo. I will let it run like this for a while and report back.

Thanks for the info.

Cool! Looking forward to the results.

......Peter

JLM · « **Reply #18 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 12:03 pm »

Quote from: FullRangeMan on 22 Mar 2016, 01:10 pm

JLM these are the 7A TS do you would calc if it do TL?
Re - 7.2 ohm
Fs - 43.585 Hz
Sd - 134.782cm2
Md - 2 grams
BL - 4.971T-M
Qms - 2.030
Qes - 0.430
Qts - 0.355
No - 1.186%
SPL - 93dB
VAS - 63.770Liters
Cms - 2.47 2m M/N
Krm - 242.164 ohm
Erm - 0.979
Mms - 5.394 grams
Mmd - 4.494 grams
Kxm - 20.332 mH
Ekm - 0.585

I'd pay Bob Brines (BrinesAcoustics.com) to develop the desired/proper solution. That's what I did 11+ years ago.

Canada Rob · « **Reply #19 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 02:50 pm »

Deleted.