[Bob in St. Louis]

No, what's the point in asking?

Just curious if you had any wheel time with one.

[Philistine]

Great pics Ryan.

I own a 2009 M3 sedan and absolutely love it.  Depending on how I drive it, it can be a good or a GREAT driving experience.  I love the sound of the engine (real sound, nothing piped in) and there is definitely something to be said for a big V8 that revs over 8k RPM's!!   

Outside of the winter, I drive it a lot (I have put on 32k miles in 2 years) and have only a few complaints:

-  Gas mileage stinks (depending on how I drive I average between 15-19 mpg)
-  The cup holders suck (they rattle and are not big or deep enough)
-  There are too many little noises for a car this expensive

That said, the Cadillac ATS-V is on my list to try this Spring (along with the newest Jag) as a possible alternative to the M3.

What did you think about the following?

-  How was the interior?
-  How much room is in the back seat?
-  How are the sight lines?

George

You might want to add the Tesla to your list George, I've got the current M3 and Porsche Macan on my list for a new car this Spring but had the 70D for a 2 day extended demo.  The Tesla is an exceptional car and breaks out of the 'Detroit paradigm' with all the features it has, if it fits into your driving lifestyle it's a very good option.  It looks like I now need to add the ATS-V to my list also.

[zybar]

You might want to add the Tesla to your list George, I've got the current M3 and Porsche Macan on my list for a new car this Spring but had the 70D for a 2 day extended demo.  The Tesla is an exceptional car and breaks out of the 'Detroit paradigm' with all the features it has, if it fits into your driving lifestyle it's a very good option.  It looks like I now need to add the ATS-V to my list also.

I would love a Tesla, but I think it is out of my price range.

George

[Philistine]

I would love a Tesla, but I think it is out of my price range.

George

I thought the same also, if you factor in incentives and fuel savings a decent M3 and the Tesla 70D are a wash.  It's the P95D Tesla, with the insane and ludicrous modes, that's about $30-40k more expensive. It's fun initially with the lightning acceleration the Tesla has, but then you have the highest safety rating of any car tested and all the software convenience features that Elon Musk keeps pushing out that sets Tesla apart. I'm finding it a very difficult decision not to go down the Tesla path...The mistake I made was to take a test drive and then bring one home for 2 days!

[cliffy]

You might want to add the Tesla to your list George, I've got the current M3 and Porsche Macan on my list for a new car this Spring but had the 70D for a 2 day extended demo.  The Tesla is an exceptional car and breaks out of the 'Detroit paradigm' with all the features it has, if it fits into your driving lifestyle it's a very good option.  It looks like I now need to add the ATS-V to my list also.

I currently have a 2015 Audi SQ5.  Similar to Porsche Macan.  I am averaging about 19.5 mpg thru 28,000 miles.  It is a blast to drive.  The Tesla is awesome.  I briefly test drove one.  The Tesla is a very large car in comparison.  The length and width are a serious increase from the M3 or smaller sedan footprint. 

Good luck.  Lots of fun cars out there

[Vapor Audio]

You might want to add the Tesla to your list George, I've got the current M3 and Porsche Macan on my list for a new car this Spring but had the 70D for a 2 day extended demo.  The Tesla is an exceptional car and breaks out of the 'Detroit paradigm' with all the features it has, if it fits into your driving lifestyle it's a very good option.  It looks like I now need to add the ATS-V to my list also.

I've driven a 70D, an 85D S, and a couple P85's.  The 70D honestly doesn't belong in the discussion with other $75K cars IMO, it just doesn't compete.  At $50K it would, but I'm not familiar with all the tax money redistribution available to Tesla buyers.  The 70D just doesn't stand out in any way, other than the giant touch screen ... and the complete lack of sound while driving it.

The dual motor model S however is ridiculous in a straight line.  The acceleration is mind bending.  But for a driver, it has just as many problems as it does highlights.  The chassis is too soft and produces too much understeer.  But the ability to put power down in a controllable, linear way mid-corner helps a lot in getting the car to rotate.  And the seats do little to hold you in place during an aggressive drive.  The brakes are solid the first few heavy applications, but by 8-10 corners of hard braking, the heft of the car adds up and the pedal becomes disturbingly soft. 

No Tesla's are what an ATS-V is (or a C63 S, or a M3), but that doesn't mean you'll prefer the ATS-V.  No Tesla is anymore ready for real track use than an Accord, but most people don't care about track readiness.  The Tesla just doesn't speak to me beyond it's ridiculous straight line ability, and the 70D doesn't give any more of that a Chevy Impala. 

[Philistine]

I've driven a 70D, an 85D S, and a couple P85's.  The 70D honestly doesn't belong in the discussion with other $75K cars IMO, it just doesn't compete.  At $50K it would, but I'm not familiar with all the tax money redistribution available to Tesla buyers.  The 70D just doesn't stand out in any way, other than the giant touch screen ... and the complete lack of sound while driving it.

The dual motor model S however is ridiculous in a straight line.  The acceleration is mind bending.  But for a driver, it has just as many problems as it does highlights.  The chassis is too soft and produces too much understeer.  But the ability to put power down in a controllable, linear way mid-corner helps a lot in getting the car to rotate.  And the seats do little to hold you in place during an aggressive drive.  The brakes are solid the first few heavy applications, but by 8-10 corners of hard braking, the heft of the car adds up and the pedal becomes disturbingly soft. 

No Tesla's are what an ATS-V is (or a C63 S, or a M3), but that doesn't mean you'll prefer the ATS-V.  No Tesla is anymore ready for real track use than an Accord, but most people don't care about track readiness.  The Tesla just doesn't speak to me beyond it's ridiculous straight line ability, and the 70D doesn't give any more of that a Chevy Impala.

Tesla have consolidated their 4 door sedan range and they're all now the Model S, the only difference is the size of the motor.  The current choices are 70, 90 and P90, exact same chassis with suspension choice (spring or air) and 2 vs 4 wheel drive as the only other variables.  I've driven the 70D and P90D and they're essentially the same car, one just has more power than the other, and they both handle the same.  I trained and test drove with the Audi rally team in Europe and have a reasonable point of reference for handling and performance.  The 70 has about the same 0-60 times as a standard Cayman or Macan S, which is more than adequate for most everyday driving. The P90D in ludicrous mode is just brutal, but a lot of fun for scaring grandma when starting off in launch mode, once you've got this out of your system then it's time to look at a more realistic long term ownership and driving experience.

I don't see the Model S as being a direct handling equivalent to an M3, the M3 is much better, the Model S is better compared against an Audi A6 in terms of size and typical buyer. But this is not the point, it's not about 'race track ready', it's about a completely different approach to the way we approach driving and the automobile.  I just have to decide if I've outgrown the need for an M3/ATS-V type and can have a different type of fun driving something that is more cutting edge in terms of technology and ownership experience.  Tesla makes a compelling argument, not perfect but a very interesting and different approach. Maybe I should forget all this and just buy a Prius....

[Folsom]

The only person I know of (personally, local guy) that has the Tesla roadster had never owned a car in his life prior. Not exactly the weekend track type... but his home is worth more than any production car made.

Ryan if you like that acceleration you should try a Yamaha VMAX sometime. It's super-car level.

[Vapor Audio]

Tesla have consolidated their 4 door sedan range and they're all now the Model S, the only difference is the size of the motor.  The current choices are 70, 90 and P90, exact same chassis with suspension choice (spring or air) and 2 vs 4 wheel drive as the only other variables.  I've driven the 70D and P90D and they're essentially the same car, one just has more power than the other, and they both handle the same.  I trained and test drove with the Audi rally team in Europe and have a reasonable point of reference for handling and performance.  The 70 has about the same 0-60 times as a standard Cayman or Macan S, which is more than adequate for most everyday driving. The P90D in ludicrous mode is just brutal, but a lot of fun for scaring grandma when starting off in launch mode, once you've got this out of your system then it's time to look at a more realistic long term ownership and driving experience.

I don't see the Model S as being a direct handling equivalent to an M3, the M3 is much better, the Model S is better compared against an Audi A6 in terms of size and typical buyer. But this is not the point, it's not about 'race track ready', it's about a completely different approach to the way we approach driving and the automobile.  I just have to decide if I've outgrown the need for an M3/ATS-V type and can have a different type of fun driving something that is more cutting edge in terms of technology and ownership experience.  Tesla makes a compelling argument, not perfect but a very interesting and different approach. Maybe I should forget all this and just buy a Prius....

I'd say that's a fair summary.  Reality is that counting on your $80K daily driver to also be a weekend track tool, and then back to daily on Monday is a bad idea.  Lots of stuff breaks at the track, having a cheaper, 2nd car setup for dedicated track work is probably going to be faster, and much less stressful in case of a blown motor.  Any of the Tesla offerings are going to be plenty capable of testing the limits of public roads. 

The difference is soul, and all the Tesla's I've driven just didn't have one.  Hell, a 140hp Miata puts a bigger smile on my face than Tesla's do.  Just like in audio, it's not about numbers but the emotional connection. 

I think the environmental responsibility argument is moot with EV cars as well.  Mining of rare earth metals has absolutely decimated inland China, most of their rivers are barren of any life from the runoff.  And then when your Tesla or Prius goes to the graveyard, you have 2000 pounds of toxic lithium waste that'll have to be disposed of somehow.  I suppose they'll find some dirt poor, 3rd World country which will gladly bury it in the hills outside unknowing villagers. 

[GentleBender]

I think the environmental responsibility argument is moot with EV cars as well.  Mining of rare earth metals has absolutely decimated inland China, most of their rivers are barren of any life from the runoff.  And then when your Tesla or Prius goes to the graveyard, you have 2000 pounds of toxic lithium waste that'll have to be disposed of somehow.  I suppose they'll find some dirt poor, 3rd World country which will gladly bury it in the hills outside unknowing villagers. 

I've always thought the same thing! Seems many people don't look into the practice of the companies that make these batteries or where they'll end up. I'm really wondering where all this surplus of e-junk will leave us in the future. Not saying I'm even close to being a role model, but I think about it every time I replace a device or appliance. I feel we are better off spending more on something built to last and easy to repair. Many companies are making junk and just expect people to replace it when it dies. End rant...

[Vapor Audio]

Great pics Ryan.

I own a 2009 M3 sedan and absolutely love it.  Depending on how I drive it, it can be a good or a GREAT driving experience.  I love the sound of the engine (real sound, nothing piped in) and there is definitely something to be said for a big V8 that revs over 8k RPM's!!   

Outside of the winter, I drive it a lot (I have put on 32k miles in 2 years) and have only a few complaints:

-  Gas mileage stinks (depending on how I drive I average between 15-19 mpg)
-  The cup holders suck (they rattle and are not big or deep enough)
-  There are too many little noises for a car this expensive

That said, the Cadillac ATS-V is on my list to try this Spring (along with the newest Jag) as a possible alternative to the M3.

What did you think about the following?

-  How was the interior?
-  How much room is in the back seat?
-  How are the sight lines?

George

You're absolutely right about the sound.  Unfortunately the ATS-V pipes fake sound through the stereo too.  Of course, an aftermarket cat back exhaust would give you all the 'real' sound you could want. 

Speaking of aftermarket, there are tuners out there getting 80-100 additional horsepower from the ATS-V with nothing but an ECU tune.  It's ridiculously tuned down from the factory, you're talking 520-540 AT THE WHEELS from just an ECU flash, that's nuts. 

The ATS-V back seat greatly depends on how tall the people in the front seats are.  If under 6', there's enough room for adults in back, if taller than that it gets pretty tight back there.  Visibility is fine from all angles, no concern there.  My list of complaints:

The sunroof wind deflector creates an obnoxious high pitched sound
6500 rpm redline gets bounced off of way to much when trying to use the paddle shifters
Tour and Sport mode feel a bit confused, only in Track mode does the car click like it should
Could use wider than 275 tires in rear, that ass will come out on you quickly
Engine produces amazing power, but it's a bit unrefined in the way it does so
Mid-corner application of power can be a sphincter clinching experience
Gauges could have come out of a Cruze, they don't fit with the rest of the car
Center dash buttons are annoying at how un-tactile they are

I loved the drivers seat, loved it.  Great adjustability that can be used to lock your body in place.  And with the ability this car has to produce G's in any direction, that's very important.  Steering feel was also very good, and all the electronic control of everything doesn't impose it's will too much in Track mode - much less than an M3 does.  The M3 is fantastic up to 80% of the limit, but it's when you try and push it beyond that the electronic controls impose themselves way too much. 

To boil it all down, the ATS-V would be near perfect (for what it's intended to be) with just a higher redline.  Oh, and the Performance Data Recorder in the ATS-V (same as the C7 Vette has) is one of the coolest, car guy geek out gadgets, on any car today.

The 550hp Jag XJ looks killer, haven't driven it yet.  And the one car in the segment that I think is the high-water mark is the Merc C63S AMG.  I only had a couple hours behind the wheel of one but was in love, although the ATS-V does have the better chassis and grip.  If the C63 would shed 300 pounds, it wouldn't have any competition.

[Folsom]

Are those tunings just for California emissions? Probably gets better mpg after a flash...

[Vapor Audio]

Are those tunings just for California emissions? Probably gets better mpg after a flash...

Doubtful it's for emissions.  Reason being AFR readings seen on dyno runs.  Above 4500rpm, it starts dumping massive amount of fuel and goes pig rich.  That's done undoubtedly for reliability, to avoid detonation.  But that only happens at higher loads, with high boost levels.  At low load, AFR's stay where they should.  More MPG with any turbo car comes from driving like there's an egg under the gas pedal.  Keep it out of boost, you get much better mileage. 

There are a couple tuners out there running solidly in the 10's with just ECU flash and intake/exhaust.  That little V6 is capable of ridiculous numbers.  And fortunately GM put big enough snails on it to support a whole lot more than factory power levels. 

[Bob in St. Louis]

There are a couple tuners out there running solidly in the 10's with just ECU flash and intake/exhaust.  That little V6 is capable of ridiculous numbers.   

Wow. That's crazy for a factory car with nothing more than a turn of a proverbial knob.

[Folsom]

Smart move by them to allow it to produce more. Tunable cars are a thing now. It's also different than the LS/LT so that's sort of interesting. Although an LS/LT that was destroked so it could do 8krpm with over 500 ponies would be fun, so I presume.

[poseidonsvoice]

Interesting chart of comparisons: http://www.cadillac.com/v-series/ats-v-sedan/competitor-compare.html

Best,
Anand.

[ctviggen]

I watch Motorweek on TV, and they love the Cadillac ATS-V.  They say it's really close or beats an M3.  Personally, after have a Saab 9-3 Viggen for a while, I find that 99.9999% of the time, I driving to or from work, and when I'm not doing that, I have kids in the car.  Thus, having a high performance vehicle is meaningless.  Also, any car these days makes it way too easy to go too fast, and cars like those make it even easier. 

[zybar]

I watch Motorweek on TV, and they love the Cadillac ATS-V.  They say it's really close or beats an M3.  Personally, after have a Saab 9-3 Viggen for a while, I find that 99.9999% of the time, I driving to or from work, and when I'm not doing that, I have kids in the car.  Thus, having a high performance vehicle is meaningless.  Also, any car these days makes it way too easy to go too fast, and cars like those make it even easier.

Bob,

I wouldn't call it meaningless.

It's no different from our audio hobby...regardless of how many hours a day/week/month I use the car or audio system, I get enjoyment out of it.  Isn't that what any hobby or passion is about?   

Clearly my car (BMW M3) can't be fully or even close to fully driven on the road, but that really isn't the point.  Even at "real" speeds it is a blast to drive and I enjoy the hell out if it. 

It's cool if you don't find value in getting a performance vehicle, but many of us do.

George

[poseidonsvoice]

Bob,

I wouldn't call it meaningless.

It's no different from our audio hobby...regardless of how many hours a day/week/month I use the car or audio system, I get enjoyment out of it.  Isn't that what any hobby or passion is about?   

Clearly my car (BMW M3) can't be fully or even close to fully driven on the road, but that really isn't the point.  Even at "real" speeds it is a blast to drive and I enjoy the hell out if it. 

It's cool if you don't find value in getting a performance vehicle, but many of use do.

George

+100.

 

Anand.

[goskers]

The terms performance and value don't tend to go hand in hand.  I try to enjoy my car daily.  A spirited mid throttle romp to even 40 mph can bring a slight smile to ones face.  It's not usually about putting something to its limits as it is about finding a way to enjoy it within them.

Now, doing anything expressive with kids in the car would be a completely different subject.