[tdinut]

Many would consider a US$19,200 stereo power amplifer uber-expensive gear. 

You don't have to get the top of the line with Bryston to get that sound. Lovingly pre-owned models show up from time to timeas well, and that my friends, makes it even more of a bargain. 

[tdinut]

Agreed.

Synergy is just as important as overall sound/quality. Price is not commensurate with sound quality either, but Bryston, with few exceptions, has a similar house sound across the board at different price points.

Yah not all lot of people can just drop $20k on a pair of mono blocks, but thats really not much if you look at what else is out there.  My first thought after reading this was about a review that another Bryston engineer pointed out to me (the same guy working on the 28B3), it was a thousand watt mono block, had higher (worse) THD+N figures and retailed for around $50k. My second thought goes back to a show that a attended and one of the exhibits was a work of a someone who a knew and respected from the industry.  In his setup he used mono blocks and the two things I remember was the official $100k (each) price tag and how disappointed he was with the end result (not that it was the amps necessarily).

[Rod_S]

Yah not all lot of people can just drop $20k on a pair of mono blocks, but thats really not much if you look at what else is out there.  My first thought after reading this was about a review that another Bryston engineer pointed out to me (the same guy working on the 28B3), it was a thousand watt mono block, had higher (worse) THD+N figures and retailed for around $50k. My second thought goes back to a show that a attended and one of the exhibits was a work of a someone who a knew and respected from the industry.  In his setup he used mono blocks and the two things I remember was the official $100k (each) price tag and how disappointed he was with the end result (not that it was the amps necessarily).

I've always wondered about the uber priced amps on the market. A couple that come instantly to mind are Boulder, Burmesiter and D'Agostino. From an amp designer perspective, what on earth is in them that makes them so expensive, if anything? I have to think there is a point that can be reached where the parts simply can't get more expensive or actually add anything more to the performance, etc. and it's just the manufacturer deciding to charge $5000 for a 5 cent part and people buy into this thus a market segment is born. The products themselves aren't any bit better (if even the equal) than the more for lack of a better word grounded products out there at a fraction of a price.

Then of course there are products like Emotiva who also produce 1000 watt monos at a fraction of the price of the 28 (or similarly priced McIntosh MC1.2KW) so that can lead to a lot of confusion on who's doing things right, who's doing it wrong and who is simply overcharging.

[srb]

Then of course there are products like Emotiva who also produce 1000 watt monos at a fraction of the price of the 28 (or similarly priced McIntosh MC1.2KW) so that can lead to a lot of confusion on who's doing things right, who's doing it wrong and who is simply overcharging.

Just to be fair, the Emotiva XPA-1 is only 600W @ 8ohms (1000W @ 4ohm), so shouldn't be compared to the 1000W @ 8ohm Bryston 28BSST2, but instead to the 600W @ 8ohm Bryston 7BSST2.

Steve

[Rod_S]

The Emotiva XPR-1 is 1000 watts. Did they stop making it? It only cost around $1500 I think so $3000 for the pair. Obviously a lot less expensive than the 28 or 1.2.

[Ola_S]

I'm an owner of the 28B-SST and there are a pair of Swedish amplifier that would give the 28's a run for their money. The amazing RS2000 from O&G Engineering (>2000W@8 ohms)

http://www.og-engineering.se/Download/O&G_RS2000.pdf

[G E]

You don't have to get the top of the line with Bryston to get that sound. Lovingly pre-owned models show up from time to timeas well, and that my friends, makes it even more of a bargain.

+1

I bought my 28's on the used market and it was a very positive experience.

James and the folks at Bryston helped me with some questions and the seller also put me in touch with his audio dealer.  This was important for a blind purchase of this magnitude.

I sold my 4bsst2 to a new Bryston convert as well as my Bryston DAC to defray costs. (Moving away from digital for the most part). Now I am selling off 35+ years of decent entry to midrange level stuff to simplify and further defray costs.

So in the end my outlay to get those 28's wasn't as much of a stretch as one might think.

With regard to Bryston pricing one must factor in the 20 year transferable warranty.  This certainly adds value!

[drummermitchell]

Very good chance I'll update my 28's(0926)if the price is right.
Will have to chat with James or Mike to see if it doable
I believe before they had the new caps installed but couldn't put the Torus transformer in there because the layout was different than the newer 28's.
That's okay as I use the 60a Torus for the front amps.........

[James Tanner]

Hi Folks,

At some point it stops being about performance (if performance means linearity of signal transfer) and starts being about 'Audio Jewelry' (not that there is anything wrong with that).   If Bryston could build a better performing amplifier we would regardless of cost.  But there comes a point where you are 99.99% of the way there (given the current state of the science of audio) and that is where we wish to be.

james
 

[Dloines]

I like that Bryston is constantly improving the quality and performance of their products.  But I also can relate to the "being 99.99% there comment".   I went from a 4BST and magnepan 1.6QRs to 4Bsst2 and magnepan 3.7i, to my ears that was a major upgrade in sound quality and for what I am looking for put me at the 99.99%.   I look at it as the right place at the right time, if I making that upgrade now I would get the st3, but for now I am 99.99% happy with the st2:lol:

[unincognito]

I've always wondered about the uber priced amps on the market. A couple that come instantly to mind are Boulder, Burmesiter and D'Agostino. From an amp designer perspective, what on earth is in them that makes them so expensive, if anything? I have to think there is a point that can be reached where the parts simply can't get more expensive or actually add anything more to the performance, etc. and it's just the manufacturer deciding to charge $5000 for a 5 cent part and people buy into this thus a market segment is born. The products themselves aren't any bit better (if even the equal) than the more for lack of a better word grounded products out there at a fraction of a price.

Then of course there are products like Emotiva who also produce 1000 watt monos at a fraction of the price of the 28 (or similarly priced McIntosh MC1.2KW) so that can lead to a lot of confusion on who's doing things right, who's doing it wrong and who is simply overcharging.

Isn't the emotiva 1000 watts into 4ohms rather then 8ohm and closer to the power of a 7b, also I believe other specs are also inferior to the Bryston?  Also it's made in China rather then North America.  I thought the McIntosh was twice the money as the 28B.

[techguy0192]

There are several factors I will take into consideration before sending in my 3B for the upgrade.

It will never be a true 3-B3, because it was an upgrade and will carry the X at the end of the serial number.

The warranty will not be reinstated for the full 20 years.  It would be really cool if Bryston would re-up the warranty, but it doesn't appear that will happen.  The 20 year warranty is a huge selling point.

Where will upgraded units fall, price-wise, in the market place?  Of course they will be worth more than if they remained SST2.  But, will the market price them at or near a used non-upgraded cubed amp? 

I think the price increase, while I'm sure necessary; will be somewhat of a turn off for buying new.  However, due to the amount of components that must be replaced in the upgrade process, how far off would the upgrade be from buying new.  If the price isn't far from buying new, the upgrade, in my opinion, isn't worth it.  With the weak Canadian dollar, I see an additional price increase in the future.

[Rod_S]

Isn't the emotiva 1000 watts into 4ohms rather then 8ohm and closer to the power of a 7b, also I believe other specs are also inferior to the Bryston?  Also it's made in China rather then North America.  I thought the McIntosh was twice the money as the 28B.

The Emotiva XPR-1 was 1000 into 8ohm but it doesn't look like it's produced anymore.

The McIntosh 1.2KW is just within $2k or $3k I think of the 28's. Given their design they don't double down like most amps so their power rating is fixed for 8,4,2ohms from my understanding. I've never been a fan of McIntosh personally but they have legions of followers for some reason. They certainly aren't built any better than other competitors products, perhaps it's just people are blinded by the the blue glow

Another Canadian company, Sim Audio makes a powerful amp as well, the 880M which lies between the 7 and 28 wattage wise, it's 800 watts but it's another amp that is crazy expensive, 40k+ per pair.

[Rod_S]

I think the price increase, while I'm sure necessary; will be somewhat of a turn off for buying new.  However, due to the amount of components that must be replaced in the upgrade process, how far off would the upgrade be from buying new.  If the price isn't far from buying new, the upgrade, in my opinion, isn't worth it.  With the weak Canadian dollar, I see an additional price increase in the future.

This is a good point. Given all the components that are going to be upgraded (seems most of the entire input stage) I'm thinking the upgrade is going to be quite expensive. That's assuming these components make up the bulk of the overall price. If on the other hand the chassis, toroidal transformer/power supply and faceplate, all components not being upgraded make up a larger portion of the overall price then there's hope for a moderately priced upgrade.

I'm not sure if we'll get lucky enough to get side by side measurements of a true cubed unit vs an upgraded unit to see what if any differences there are. I guess it might come down to what makes the most difference to what we ultimately hear, is it in the input stage or the output stage.

[techguy0192]

The Emotiva XPR-1 was 1000 into 8ohm but it doesn't look like it's produced anymore.

The McIntosh 1.2KW is just within $2k or $3k I think of the 28's. Given their design they don't double down like most amps so their power rating is fixed for 8,4,2ohms from my understanding. I've never been a fan of McIntosh personally but they have legions of followers for some reason. They certainly aren't built any better than other competitors products, perhaps it's just people are blinded by the the blue glow

Another Canadian company, Sim Audio makes a powerful amp as well, the 880M which lies between the 7 and 28 wattage wise, it's 800 watts but it's another amp that is crazy expensive, 40k+ per pair.

Emotiva, IMO, is garbage and should not even be compared with truly high-end products from the likes of Bryston and McIntosh.

The Mac's don't double down because of the autoformers.  Same power output to any load. 

I have directly compared SST2 to McIntosh amps with direct coupled outputs.  The differences were marginal and splitting hairs. 

Depending on the Cubed prices, SST2 upgrade cost, and cost/value ratio, I could see myself going back to McIntosh for my main system.  Always wanted to own a MC275.  The price increases for the cubed series will place the amps near other brand options.

[Charles Calkins]

  techguy0192

    I agree with you on the McIntosh amps. I have been running an MC352 amp for a few years.
    However I tried an Emotiva stereo amp and it was pretty good. Things sounded a little bit harsh running my system.
    But for the price of Emtiva's products they are hard to beat.

                                                                       Cheers
                                                                     Charlie

[SoundGame]

James, is there any way you can share/post your in-house test results for the last of the SST2 vs. the new Cubed series?  Does any of the improvement you have made actually show up on the bench testing results that are included with all Bryston amps from the factory?  I don't expect there would be much to note - would there?  Thanks.

I'm not sure if we'll get lucky enough to get side by side measurements of a true cubed unit vs an upgraded unit to see what if any differences there are. I guess it might come down to what makes the most difference to what we ultimately hear, is it in the input stage or the output stage.

[James Tanner]

James, is there any way you can share/post your in-house test results for the last of the SST2 vs. the new Cubed series?  Does any of the improvement you have made actually show up on the bench testing results that are included with all Bryston amps from the factory?  I don't expect there would be much to note - would there?  Thanks.

The distortion numbers are a bit better in the new amps but like I have said before when you get to this level of performance the advancements are incremental.  Kind of like getting your score below par.

james

[Rod_S]

Emotiva, IMO, is garbage and should not even be compared with truly high-end products from the likes of Bryston and McIntosh.

So what exactly makes them garbage? Are they using substandard components with very high failure rates? Are they implementing circuits, etc. with very high noise, etc, etc.

I think this gets at the whole price doesn't necessarily determine quality. If their components, circuit designs are as competent as the likes of say Bryston and McIntosh or the uber expensive products like Boulder, D'Agostino, etc. then they couldn't be called garbage. Sure they may not have fancy machined aluminum faceplates like Brsyton, or the alluring to some blue meters of the McIntosh or machined copper chassis like D'Agostino but those are more cosmetic in nature features.

[techguy0192]

So what exactly makes them garbage? Are they using substandard components with very high failure rates? Are they implementing circuits, etc. with very high noise, etc, etc.

I think this gets at the whole price doesn't necessarily determine quality. If their components, circuit designs are as competent as the likes of say Bryston and McIntosh or the uber expensive products like Boulder, D'Agostino, etc. then they couldn't be called garbage. Sure they may not have fancy machined aluminum faceplates like Brsyton, or the alluring to some blue meters of the McIntosh or machined copper chassis like D'Agostino but those are more cosmetic in nature features.

My opinions only.....

Emotiva is fueled by fanboys and good internet marketing.  I see people sucked into their products that know just enough to look for separates.  Emotiva fulfills that, and does it cheaply.  However, those people would have been better offer with a good integrated.  Yes, I have auditioned their products.  I have listened to them at high-end shows; they are by no means “giant killers”.  Their products are, from what I have noticed, targeted at people just getting into the hobby or those that are on a tight budget.  With a little more knowledge, new Emotiva owners could have had better quality equipment had they gone down the preowned or vintage paths.


Now…back to Bryston.