Well Tempered Reference Spindle to Pivot Distance

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ACHiPo

Well Tempered Reference Spindle to Pivot Distance
« on: 26 Jan 2016, 10:50 pm »
Google searches have turned up some wildly varying numbers for the proper distance between the spindle and tonearm pivot for a Well Tempered Turntable Reference arm.  I thought I'd ask this august body for guidance.

Thanks,
Evan

gagamut

Re: Well Tempered Reference Spindle to Pivot Distance
« Reply #1 on: 27 Jan 2016, 03:13 am »
[u

do you have the original protractor??

ACHiPo

Re: Well Tempered Reference Spindle to Pivot Distance
« Reply #2 on: 27 Jan 2016, 07:15 am »
I can print one (a classic) from Vinyl Circle.  The question I have is where the headshell should line up on the circle.

gagamut

Re: Well Tempered Reference Spindle to Pivot Distance
« Reply #3 on: 28 Jan 2016, 01:44 am »
firstly,my english is too bad so hope you understand what i say. :D

the black line circle is OVERHANG,so the cartridge needle should be right there,so you can rotate the bearing cup(i mean the Platform ) to adjust

ACHiPo

Re: Well Tempered Reference Spindle to Pivot Distance
« Reply #4 on: 28 Jan 2016, 03:09 am »
firstly,my english is too bad so hope you understand what i say. :D

the black line circle is OVERHANG,so the cartridge needle should be right there,so you can rotate the bearing cup(i mean the Platform ) to adjust
That makes perfect sense!  Thanks!

ACHiPo

Re: Well Tempered Reference Spindle to Pivot Distance
« Reply #5 on: 31 Jan 2016, 08:19 pm »
I printed out the VinylEngine protractor and used it to set overhang.  A couple of the challenges were 1) "eyeballing" overhang--there is an alignment dot on top of the headshell, but my stylus was between the dot and the front of the headshell, not to mention the parallax of the distance between the headshell, stylus, and template.  2) The pivot moves.  A lot.  After carefully making sure the paddle was centered and getting everything dialed in with the Feickert, I went back to check and it was off.  But it wasn't really, the pivot had just moved off-center.  Once it re-centered itself and I checked (more carefully this time) it was dead on.

The spindle to distance with everything lined up ended up at 220.5 mm as measured on the Feickert scale.  This is one number I haven't seen listed as the spindle to pivot distance.

I set the pointer on the Feickert at the edge of the azimuth adjustment knob, between the two holes that the monofilament go through.  Again, not very easy to be precise to <0.1 mm given the distances involved and the parallax.  Oh, and while Mr. Firebaugh's spindle bearing and platter design may be brilliant for controlling vibration, it makes using the Feickert very difficult--I had to stuff a towel under the platter and shim the base plate of the Feickert to keep everything from moving since the belt was no longer strong enough to keep the platter pulled against the bearing and the dished platter caused the Feickert's base plate to wobble.

beta14ok

Re: Well Tempered Reference Spindle to Pivot Distance
« Reply #6 on: 31 Jan 2016, 10:40 pm »
I have been following this thread as well as the thread started by hansdejong with interest, however response & guidance from the community has been scarce.

What I have done on my WTT arm is extend the cartridge to it is in maximum forward position and then focus on centering the cartridge alignment at the two null points on the protractor. I was not able to get the stylus all of the way out to the edge of the spindle circle. It did seem to take lots of time to get it right at the two null points. Once there, I locked down the cartridge headshell screws, rechecked the alignment and tracking force.  Yep I had to repeat a couple of times because the !@#$ing thing moved on several attempts to torque-down the screws. I also needed to re-tweak the tracking force a little. I then set the azimuth, using 1kHz test tones from the Analogue Productions test LP . and messed with VTA by ear until it sounded equivalent across the frequency sweeps on the same test LP. I'm not using any anti-skate. I don't have any other tools, except the VinylEngine protractor, tracking force gauge and a test record, but using this, I was able to get some spectacular results today. I'm pleased.

Bottom line, I don't think that the spindle to Pivot Distance is catastrophically critical.

In my case, the distance from the spindle to the front edge of the circle on the protractor is short by 4mm. I could rotate further, but it would be a LOT of work to move it off of the "factory" setting on the plinth. Again, I am now getting some really great balanced music and the imaging is fantastic.....so I'm calling it done-n-dusted.

ACHiPo

Re: Well Tempered Reference Spindle to Pivot Distance
« Reply #7 on: 31 Jan 2016, 11:20 pm »
I have been following this thread as well as the thread started by hansdejong with interest, however response & guidance from the community has been scarce.

What I have done on my WTT arm is extend the cartridge to it is in maximum forward position and then focus on centering the cartridge alignment at the two null points on the protractor. I was not able to get the stylus all of the way out to the edge of the spindle circle. It did seem to take lots of time to get it right at the two null points. Once there, I locked down the cartridge headshell screws, rechecked the alignment and tracking force.  Yep I had to repeat a couple of times because the !@#$ing thing moved on several attempts to torque-down the screws. I also needed to re-tweak the tracking force a little. I then set the azimuth, using 1kHz test tones from the Analogue Productions test LP . and messed with VTA by ear until it sounded equivalent across the frequency sweeps on the same test LP. I'm not using any anti-skate. I don't have any other tools, except the VinylEngine protractor, tracking force gauge and a test record, but using this, I was able to get some spectacular results today. I'm pleased.

Bottom line, I don't think that the spindle to Pivot Distance is catastrophically critical.

In my case, the distance from the spindle to the front edge of the circle on the protractor is short by 4mm. I could rotate further, but it would be a LOT of work to move it off of the "factory" setting on the plinth. Again, I am now getting some really great balanced music and the imaging is fantastic.....so I'm calling it done-n-dusted.
It sounds like you need to rotate the tonearm assembly--which is a pain (I also had to do it, but once done I could get the alignment right on with the Feickert, which is quite a bit more precise (aka fiddly) than the VE protractor). Then again, you could just listen and be happy  8)

One thing I discovered is that the knob that enables VTA adjustment likes to loosen up which allows a lot of play in the tonearm--make sure it's tight and recheck alignment before messing with the tonearm mounting bolt.  To adjust the spindle distance, I slid the table partially off the shelf until the tonearm mounting bolt is accessible (the back of the 'table needs to extend off the shelf by ~4").  You'll need a deep 7/16" (I think) socket to loosen the nut.  Once the nut is loose, you can rotate the tonearm assembly so the stylus is right on the circle (keep the stylus guard on!).  Make sure you hold the tonearm cup/pillar firmly when you tighten the nut, as it want to turn and you get to do it all over. 

Just to feed any neuroses you might have, my Kleos definitely sounds better all the way through the record now that the adjustment is correct.

beta14ok

Re: Well Tempered Reference Spindle to Pivot Distance
« Reply #8 on: 31 Jan 2016, 11:48 pm »
Many thanks for your intell'. I will need to feed those neuroses,....of course,.....but I'm gonna chill for a few days, because it really does sound good. That final tweak of rotating of the platform can wait a while, then I can compare the difference it makes,...if any.

The Blackbird doesn't have a guard, so I'm gonna need to be slow, steady, observant, and careful.

With respect to the VTA adjustments: I added small brass knobs epoxied on the end of extended threaded screws, to make adjustments and tightening easier. I'll post some pictures sometime in the future.

I greatly appreciate your guidance on rotating the platform and moving things to spec'.

Cheers and happy listening.

ACHiPo

Re: Well Tempered Reference Spindle to Pivot Distance
« Reply #9 on: 1 Feb 2016, 12:18 am »
Many thanks for your intell'. I will need to feed those neuroses,....of course,.....but I'm gonna chill for a few days, because it really does sound good. That final tweak of rotating of the platform can wait a while, then I can compare the difference it makes,...if any.

Cheers and happy listening.
I can definitely relate.  I still need to set azimuth and VTA, but those can wait until another day.  Plus given I have a brand new silver tonearm cable and cartridge, I'm thinking a few hours will be needed at a minimum before they settle in so I can tweak both parameters, first with Feickert's Adjust+ then confirming by ear.

Happy listening as well!

beta14ok

Re: Well Tempered Reference Spindle to Pivot Distance
« Reply #10 on: 1 Feb 2016, 02:25 am »
here' a mobile phone shot of the arm's VTA adjustment knobs.





ACHiPo

Re: Well Tempered Reference Spindle to Pivot Distance
« Reply #11 on: 1 Feb 2016, 01:40 pm »
here' a mobile phone shot of the arm's VTA adjustment knobs.



Those look pretty cool.  The one on the back is the one that I have trouble keeping tight.  My arm already has an anodized aluminum knob on that screw.  I might add some Loctite (the temporary stuff) once I'm confident that I've got VTA dialed in.

beta14ok

Re: Well Tempered Reference Spindle to Pivot Distance
« Reply #12 on: 18 Feb 2016, 05:28 pm »
ok.....I have moved the platform and my stylus overhang now lines up perfectly with the protractor's spindle circle. All of the other adjustments have been repeated to bring the alignment into perfection as best I can achieve it. The job was not really too challenging at all.

There is definitely an improvement in the imaging & sound stage. There is now a more refined balance to the bass component of the music....particularly in large orchestral recordings. I am pleased!

So,....thanks for the nudge ACHiPo!