[henrylr]

I have been considering upgrading my Adcom gfa 5400 to a better amp and have been considering a used Bryston, B&K or some other top rated makes. The local dealers I've talked with say improvements caps, transistors and design will make new amps sound much better than the older yet highly rated amps.

When I read reviews of Bryston, B&K and a few others, I find that hard to accept. My feeling is that to stay in business they need to sell. Iv'e listened to various systems, in my price range, at two audio dealers and have not been impressed. Is there truth in what they say or is it a selling sham?

Thanks,
henrylr

[henrylr]

I'm close to pulling the trigger on a very nice looking Mistral integrated as a replacement for the Adcom gfa5400 and Aragon 18K MkII. It's the first iteration but has been upgraded with higher end caps. Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
henrylr

[henrylr]

Missed it. EBAY bidding got to high for me.

[Lancelot]

 Here's the problem. If you want something better then you have to identify what it is your present system does or doesn't do than needs changing. Otherwise it is very easy to make the sound *different* but not necessarily better and maybe worse than your present system given your own preferences.

This isn't easy to do but simply changing something ( within reason ) without doing the hard work first is  a wild goose chase. If you are going to change, IMO, an integrated is a higher value for money purchase and eliminates the synergy problem between pre and power and an interconnect and power cord.

If you're reasonably  happy with what you have now, tread lightly.

[henrylr]

I've just started considering an integrated but haven't done any research on integrated amps because I like the Aragon 18K MkII. I also don't think it there is any demand for the 18k or the Adcom. Regarding interconnects, on my second system, they are DIY UPOCC silver in PTFE tubing and work very well.

These are the reasons that I'm looking for a better amplifier.

[RDavidson]

My suggestion is to try out as many amps as you can, at home, in your system. Experience is key. One cannot understand what they're missing until it is made clear. I've had MANY amps in and out of my system over the years. For me, once I started down the path of Pass Labs / First Watt, I could no longer look back.

[henrylr]

I'm looking for a sound stage with more depth and width and tighter bass. I thought some model of a Bryston or B&K might be better than the Adcom.

[kenreau]

What you think you are looking for may be caused by other contributing factors such as speakers, speakers placement /  room acoustics issues and your music/signal source, not necessarily your amp.

Imho, room acoustics are most likely to give you the most bang for your dollar.  Check out the acoustics circle forum here.  Optimizing the speakers placement in your room is nearly free and can also provide significant improvements.

Kenreau

[henrylr]

I've visited the Cardas and Audio physics sites and others and read their speaker placement recommendations and formulas. I've moved the speakers many times and think I've found a very good sounding position. The width and depth are pretty good but I think they could be better. Everything I've read about Bryston and B&K report they excel in that aspect for there price. I don't have the $$$$ for Rowland or Levinsion ect..

[rollo]

If I were you I would look at another preamp first. Or DAC or CDP. The Adcom can be modded with up to date caps and better RCA jacks.


charles

[RDavidson]

Short of buying and trying as I suggested earlier : If you want meaningful recommendations, let us know what your whole system consists of, the size of your room, and how loud you usually prefer to listen. It can also be helpful to know the types of music you enjoy most.

[opnly bafld]

If your Aragon 18K has a P&G volume control, it is both good and in demand.

[henrylr]

System is Meridian 506-20 CD player, Aragon 18K Mk II pre-amp with P&G control, Adcom gfa 5400 amp, Sound Dynamics 300Ti speakers with DIY outboard xovers with M Cap Supreme caps, Hi-End air coils and resistors on heatsinks. Interconnects and speaker wires are UPOCC silver inside PTFE tubing.

The room is 14' W X 18' L X 9' H. Front of speakers are 38" away from 14' wide back wall, driver centers are 33" away from side walls and 8' to listening position with very very slight toe in and tilt back. Speakers are on heavy stands putting tweeters 34" above the floor. Ear height at listening position is 42". Room has Venetian blinds completely covering all walls except for lower 2' and upper 2 ' which is cedar shingled (very interrupted surface). Floor is hardwood with an 11X9 rug between speakers and listening position and lots of cushioned seating.

I listen to jazz and classical, medium loud, like a grand piano is in the room. I've been playing flute in jazz clubs for about 30 years and am considered to have good ears.

[RDavidson]

Pretty nice setup there.
It's easy to understand why you'd like to upgrade your amp. I don't think you necessarily need tons of power (your Adcom likely has plenty for your speakers and tastes). What you need is refinement. With that said, I'd probably go with something like the Odyssey Khartago. I think the basic unit (without any of the MANY available upgrades) would be a VERY meaningful step up in refinement over your Adcom. And whenever you feel the need to upgrade further, Odyssey has many options for you. Hard to go wrong.

[henrylr]

Thanks for the info. I also don't think more power is needed. The system sounds quite good but your mentioning refinement, I think, hits the mark. It almost sound like Keith Jarret is in the room and I have had fellow musicians sit in the sweet spot with their eyes closed and they have all said it sounds closer than anything they have heard in making a piano, drums and especially cymbals seem to "almost" be in the room. I think more depth and width will bring the sound closer to reality.

[henrylr]

My primary system, with much more expensive components, doesn't sound as good as the Adcom powered system. I'm hoping outboard xovers for the B&W Nautilus 803s will fix that system's failings. I've spent days moving the speakers around and changing the surrounding furnishing and wall treatments and it still doesn't compare with the other system.

[opnly bafld]

You might want to move the speakers so there is more variation between the side and back wall distance.
IME subwoofers can give more sense of space in the soundstage and careful placement of multiple subs can help bass quality.

[Photon46]

I'll just throw out something that you might not have considered: power conditioning. This recommendation specifically relates to your desire for improvements in sound staging. For $225-$250,you can get one of Audience's single outlet conditioners (used on Audiogon) and power both your preamp and cd player through a power strip plugged into the single outlet of the Audience. I tried one and I've been extremely impressed with the increase in instrumental separation, sense of acoustic space in the recording venue, and clarity/truthfulness of instrument's timbre in my system. This has been true with both solid state and tubed preamps. That said, other members here have NOT experienced these benefits with power conditioning, so there is some degree of system dependency. I've even read one person who said the Audience was one of the worst sounding conditioners they ever purchased. I'd consider the experiment low to zero risk though, the Audience conditioners can easily be resold for what one pays for them. They generally go fast when they pop up for sale. Another avenue of improvement that could give you the improvements you desire would be to experiment with a tubed preamp that uses 6n7 tubes rather than small signal tubes like the 12au7, 12ax7, or 6922's. I've found that I've preferred the way the 6sn7 sounds to smaller tubes. DeHavilland, Wyetech, Musica Bella/Response Audio, Valvet, and others make good ones.

[JLM]

henrylr,

Why are you mentioning Bryston and B&K in the same sentence?  B&K is nothing more than old AVA knock-offs and were acquired by ATI 6 years ago.  OTOH Bryston is well respected gear.

You're Adcom is a classic (never world class, but well liked/respected, a standard of sorts).  Over the years component (caps especially) can drift,  so if you can find a competent shop it can be restored to like new performance.

You've probably become acclimated to the sound of the Adcom.  In recent years the industry has moved towards a tighter (some might say constipated) sound.  System performance in the factors you listed is primarily a function of 1.) speakers; 2.) room; 3.)setup.

Don't like seeing that the room length is exactly twice the height - will reinforce 125 Hz and multiples there of.  Moving the crossovers outboard (without reworking them) would make a very minor difference iME.  And yes, keep playing around with speaker location.  I finally did and the soundstage gained width/layering depth by moving them close the side walls and aiming them to cross in front of me.  Power conditioning is a localized issue.  A good 6N7 preamp can't hurt, but aren't cheap.

[RDavidson]

You've probably become acclimated to the sound of the Adcom.  In recent years the industry has moved towards a tighter (some might say constipated) sound.

I guess one could say the industry has moved to a tighter sound if comparing it to the ripe, overly lush, "classic" pre-late-1970's sound.

Adcoms are good amps. No doubt. They are built well and do their job reliably. However, Adcoms have never been known to be the most refined or resolving amps. Note that resolution not only helps one hear things in the music that were previously masked, resolution also GREATLY contributes to spatial cues / imaging. Of course those things cost more. In fact, those are the two main aspects one attains as they move up. It sounds to me like the OP is looking for that next step up. He has good front end gear. His speakers are also nice and can perform well beyond their price bracket. The amp is really outclassed. Recapping and installing much better binding posts and RCA jacks can certainly help, but it's like putting Pirelli P-Zero's on a '92 Mustang. The P Zero's will help it around the track to only a certain extent. Why limit one's self when a much better overall driving experience is rather easily attainable?

If you're looking on the used market, Odyssey Khartagos rarely show up. You might consider a McCormack DNA .5 Deluxe, which start around $600. You might also look at the DNA 125, which start around $800 used. All these amps offer about the same amount of power you have today, but will be much more refined and resolving than the Adcom. They're all upgradeable by the manufacturer also.