[jsaliga]

Jerome, was DSD format DSD 64 or DSD 128?
Scotty

It is in DSD.ISO image format so it is the same as the SACD, single rate 2.8MHz DSD64.

--Jerome

[Freo-1]

If you are referring to the Tchaikovsky 6th you mentioned I have it.  I bought it direct from Pentatone in DSD format.  Can't remember what it sounded like but I can queue it up for a listen when I have some time.

I don't buy a lot of music from them but there some titles that I like.  It has been a mixed bag for me.  As I said, my listening preferences are mostly in the past.  I am an enormous fan of the big conductors and orchestras of the day, a fan of the recording methods, the microphones used, etc. etc.  Most modern recordings that I have heard just don't produce the sort of breathtaking sound that was commonplace with Decca/London, RCA Living Stereo, and Mercury Living Presence.

--Jerome

I'm a fan of many modern recordings/performances.  Still, I can very much relate to your approach.  I have a lot of RCA Red Seal SACD recordings, as well as some Mercury Living Presence SACD's.  One of my favorites is this one:


    

[*Scotty*]

Thanks for the info, I was kind of hoping for DSD128.
Scotty

[jsaliga]

Right now I am listening to this...



This is a DSD128 download from High Definition Tape Transfers.  It was sourced from a Columbia 4 track 1/4" tape.

If you enjoy classical recordings from the 1950s and 60s then pay a visit to http://www.highdeftapetransfers.com

--Jerome

[jsaliga]

I'm a fan of many modern recordings/performances.  Still, I can very much relate to your approach.  I have a lot of RCA Red Seal SACD recordings, as well as some Mercury Living Presence SACD's.  One of my favorites is this one:


 

Very nice.  I like the Byron Janis Rachmaninoff recordings on MLP as well.  I have them on original vintage vinyl pressings, 180g vinyl reissues from Speakers Corner, and the Mercury SACDs.

But when it comes to music for piano and orchestra my absolute favorite is Brahms Piano Concerto No. 1:





--Jerome

[Freo-1]

Very nice.  I like the Byron Janis Rachmaninoff recordings on MLP as well.  I have them on original vintage vinyl pressings, 180g vinyl reissues from Speakers Corner, and the Mercury SACDs.

But when it comes to music for piano and orchestra my absolute favorite is Brahms Piano Concerto No. 1:





--Jerome

Excellent.  I'm a big fan of the Brahms piece.  I have that (Reiner) on SACD.   

[Steve]

I think it would be good to address a couple of points.

1) DAC chips convert to analog. However, the analog stage in all DAC chips I know of is designed PP class B up until at least 3 years ago or so. I have not checked since. Huge amounts of global negative feedback are used. One manufacturer I contacted years ago reasoned that class A creates too much dissipation. There could be other problems as well.

2) Second point, discuss this between yourselves as I will not give the answer. Nyquist requires two samples to reproduce. What happens when a "note's" initial signal is introduced between two samples?

Be sure to cover all the possible possibilities. Did any of the links discuss these two points?

I do like digital (higher res is better from my experience) and I love vinyl as well. This assumes both are recorded well.

I will not take sides in this debate.

Cheers
Steve

[*Scotty*]

I'm going to say interpolation, which is the best reason for a higher sample, it will tend to reduce the number of interpolations. The actual signal could have done almost anything between the two data points the interpolation is based on. Nyquist Theorem may cover this but I don't pretend to understand it completely.
It would be interesting to take an analogue and a digital recording of some test tones and see how deep null exists at various frequencies between the two recording mediums. One would have to allow for the tapes wow and flutter effect on frequency stability somehow.
Scotty

[G Georgopoulos]

I think it would be good to address a couple of points.

1) DAC chips convert to analog. However, the analog stage in all DAC chips I know of is designed PP class B up until at least 3 years ago or so. I have not checked since. Huge amounts of global negative feedback are used. One manufacturer I contacted years ago reasoned that class A creates too much dissipation. There could be other problems as well.

2) Second point, discuss this between yourselves as I will not give the answer. Nyquist requires two samples to reproduce. What happens when a "note's" initial signal is introduced between two samples?

Be sure to cover all the possible possibilities. Did any of the links discuss these two points?

I do like digital (higher res is better from my experience) and I love vinyl as well. This assumes both are recorded well.

I will not take sides in this debate.

Cheers
Steve

 

first point,huge global nfb, can work with class-a as well,heat dissipation and o/p zout dont apply since it is a small signal stage...

second point,if you have nothing to offer, then don't mention that you know and don't want to tell...

third point,you can't sit on the fence, you give us the impression you know nothing on either format...

cheers...

[*Scotty*]

I'm thinking the Class B operation isn't too big a problem. For example the measurements of the Auralic Vega's full scale analogue output, which I assume to at the 0dB point vs negative something or other below 0dB, have the THD+N at –116dB, or just 0.0002%. This was into a 600ohm load. And more importantly than that it doesn't sound too bad either. Class B operation may help reduce thermal debiasing in the chip due to uneven heating across the chips substrate.
A far as the feedback goes I suspect that the propagation delay may not be too big a problem due the extremely small distance between points on the chip. Other than that I got nothing.
Scotty
 

[G Georgopoulos]

I'm thinking the Class B operation isn't too big a problem. For example the measurements of the Auralic Vega's full scale analogue output, which I assume to at the 0dB point vs negative something or other below 0dB, have the THD+N at –116dB, or just 0.0002%. This was into a 600ohm load. And more importantly than that it doesn't sound too bad either. Class B operation may help reduce thermal debiasing in the chip due to uneven heating across the chips substrate.
A far as the feedback goes I suspect that the propagation delay may not be too big a problem due the extremely small distance between points on the chip. Other than that I got nothing.
Scotty

you must have had one hell of a precision crossover bias to achieve that figure!
i can beat you to it with a small signal class-a scotty...

[*Scotty*]

I may have miscommunicated here. The measurement of the Auralic Vega is inclusive of the entire signal chain from the point at which the digital signal enters the device and passes through the ESS Sabre DAC and on out the analogue gain stage. This is a worst case measurement of the Auralic Vega in its entirety, not just the analogue output stage by itself. The ESS Sabre DAC has almost 21bits of resolution as implemented, which means at 0dB its THD+N is .00005%.
Here is a link to the measurements take by Stereophile. http://www.stereophile.com/content/auralic-vega-da-processor-measurements
Scotty

[jsaliga]

2) Second point, discuss this between yourselves as I will not give the answer. Nyquist requires two samples to reproduce. What happens when a "note's" initial signal is introduced between two samples?

Be sure to cover all the possible possibilities. Did any of the links discuss these two points?

Sounds like a homework assignment.  I know the answer too but won't give it.  Let's see if anyone else knows who wants to keep it to themselves. 

--Jerome

[werd]

I think it would be good to address a couple of points.

1) DAC chips convert to analog. However, the analog stage in all DAC chips I know of is designed PP class B up until at least 3 years ago or so. I have not checked since. Huge amounts of global negative feedback are used. One manufacturer I contacted years ago reasoned that class A creates too much dissipation. There could be other problems as well.

2) Second point, discuss this between yourselves as I will not give the answer. Nyquist requires two samples to reproduce. What happens when a "note's" initial signal is introduced between two samples?

Be sure to cover all the possible possibilities. Did any of the links discuss these two points?

I do like digital (higher res is better from my experience) and I love vinyl as well. This assumes both are recorded well.

I will not take sides in this debate.

Cheers
Steve

It starts aliasing and the waveform no longer represents the original note?

[werd]

This thread reminds me of the Python witch duck wood scene....  i be Palin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU

[jsaliga]

I spent some time listening to the Pentatone DSD64 recording of Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony, with the Russian National Orchestra conducted by Mikhail Pletnev.



After listening to the first movement twice I know now why I couldn't remember much about it.  This is a completely forgettable performance featuring what I will charitably call "competently" recorded sound, and that is the nicest thing I can say about it.  I agree that it has more dynamic range than any of my favorite recordings of the 6th on Mercury Living Presence or RCA Living Stereo.  But the music as it is presented here is lifeless, lacks emotional impact, and has nowhere near the detail of the Dorati/LSO reading on Mercury Living Presence or the Pierre Monteux/BSO recording on RCA Living Stereo.  Either of those two recordings are an order of magnitude superior sounding to this uninvolving Pentatone recording and they literally stomp it into the dirt.  Given a choice I would take the Dorati on MLP because I think the performance is a little better and overall the sonics get the nod over the RCA LS recording.

To be completely fair I gave a listen to my Mercury Living Presence CD.  I also have this on a minty stereo vinyl LP.



This recording sounds like I am sitting about 10 rows back at Symphony Hall.  In terms of emotional impact, realism, detail, this recording has everything that the Pentatone recording lacks.  Ask me which recording I will listen to when I want to hear a fantastic Tchaikovsky 6th?  This one, 100% of the time.  The Monteux is good as well, and I have one on DG vinyl by Karajan/BPO that also is quite good but doesn't match the sonic performance of the Dorati MLP.

So this says a lot about my preference for older classical recordings that were made in the 1950s and 60s.  It isn't because I think that analogue is better than digital.  It is because I think the recording techniques and equipment used produced far better sounding music than modern techniques and equipment.  How the music is stored and played back is actually of very little consequence to me.

I also broke out my minty vinyl pressing and gave the first side a listen and then compared to the CD.  Hardly valid from a scientific perspective but I thought it would be an interesting exercise.  They are very close to each other.  My vinyl copy is near perfect and there is no snap, crackle, and pop on my LP.  Surface noise is very low.  If I had to judge which is better I would say that I didn't prefer one over the other.

--Jerome

[sts9fan]

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=136527.0

[werd]

I think it would be good to address a couple of points.

1) DAC chips convert to analog. However, the analog stage in all DAC chips I know of is designed PP class B up until at least 3 years ago or so. I have not checked since. Huge amounts of global negative feedback are used. One manufacturer I contacted years ago reasoned that class A creates too much dissipation. There could be other problems as well.



Cheers
Steve

Cd player dac chips convert to a "quasi-digital" analogue output before filtering. Filtering smooths out the sine wave.  That was my point. The analogue info stored on vinyl is a sine wave right at the stylus. There is no electronic hoop-la to get the signal to analogue (or at least measure good).

[Steve]

George,

first point,huge global nfb, can work with class-a as well,heat dissipation and o/p zout dont apply since it is a small signal stage...

You mean a DAC chip never ever has a heat problem because they are small signal? Yippe. Hmmm, but then why not just operate the chip analog stages class A instead of Class B push pull with huge amounts of GNF and silicon resistors etc? 

second point,if you have nothing to offer, then don't mention that you know and don't want to tell...

So we don't have to think? Yippe, makes my job easier. So everyone, please forget my second point.

third point,you can't sit on the fence, you give us the impression you know nothing on either format...

I will admit I know positively, without a shadow of a doubt, absolutely nothing on either format. 

cheers

You copied my signature! I just copied yours,,,,,,,,,, so there. 

Steve 

 

[Steve]

Cd player dac chips convert to a "quasi-digital" analogue output before filtering. Filtering smooths out the sine wave.  That was my point. The analogue info stored on vinyl is a sine wave right at the stylus. There is no electronic hoop-la to get the signal to analogue (or at least measure good).

DAC, digital to analog chip. Any time analog is present, one has to design for such.

Cheers
Steve