[AmpDesigner333]

A friend of mine visited last month, and ironically expressed MUCH enjoyment from a Maraschino demo, then said something like "Nobody has a high end audio system anymore.".

I asked him to elaborate and he responded with the following (he called these facts!):
1. People are too busy to listen to music.
2. Everyone listens to crappy quality audio on speaker phones and earbuds and likes it.
3. Audiophiles are dying off!
4. It's a waste of money, and usually LOTS of money.

I was insulted, but let him go on and on.  He was insulting all audiophiles, and I felt compelled to defend our great hobby.  I call it a hobby, but for some it's much more.

This conversation led to a multi-week debate....  In the end, he backed down quite a bit.  Still, not all the way.  I was confident that my argument was convincing.

I said the bottom line is listening.  Listening to music on a great system is extremely enjoyable.  Having a source of enjoyment is important, but it seems fewer and fewer people realize just how important it is.  Yes, this goes into psychology and even philosophy.

I'll post more about this later, including what really made him back down and admit he was WRONG.

-Tommy O

[Folsom]

That's not true... They're around. It's exposure that's lower because there's so many shops that closed, and the low end places that use to carry some ok gear no longer do.

It's dead like vinyl... well ok it's slightly more so than vinyl, but point being he's wrong.

It's more of an internet thing now. Although I don't know why RMAF participation is down.

[JLM]

My dad observed a few years ago how caught up our culture is in entertainment and he was right.  Sports are everywhere, yet more is spent on gambling.  It seems like we're bombarded by movies and TV.  Of course home computing (thinking browsing and games) take incredible amounts of time.  Then there's recreational pastimes: hunting, fishing, boating, snowmobiling, on and on.  And you can't forget all those old fashioned pastimes from days gone by that some still follow like board games, various DIY pursuits, travel, and fine dining.  All this leaves less time or money for audio. 

Many of geeks have moved on to geekier computer related endeavors.  Many, the younger especially, have followed convenience routes to music (portable, streaming, wireless, and most importantly cheaper).  Most don't have an ear to hear audiophile parameters or un-amplified music.  I just ran into a young guy who had assembled a system based on his iPhone, Spotify, a cheap/tiny no name BlueTooth receiver/DAC, a 40 year old Marantz (used as a pre-amp), Crown 1500, and vintage speakers that he had repaired.  I've led him to buy a super cheap tablet, optical cable, cheap Schiit DAC, and BlueJean interconnects but he still can't hear the difference between Spotify and Tidal (he does appreciate the equipment upgrades).

This is an old discussion, but another aspect is the income gap as represented by what is promoted in audio (the mega-buck gear) and what the rest of us can afford.  Tell someone you saw a $200,000 turntable or a $67,000 pair of speaker cables recently and they instantly dismiss the entire industry.  Hidden underneath those headlines though is the fact that good sound is more affordable and convenient than ever.  Technology from the super expensive stuff has trickled down, computer technology has greatly helped to reduce cost/increase convenience, and material sciences continues to make advancements.  Examples abound in our Cheap and Cheerful circle. 

Now the challenge for the audiophile community to be more accessible.  The A/V community has a similar challenge.  All-in-one-box systems are tempting the unknowing into poor choices, yet they promote big bulky expensive and complicated systems.

[AmpDesigner333]

....he still can't hear the difference between Spotify and Tidal (he does appreciate the equipment upgrades).

Very well put.  Profound!

I was just visiting a friend (graduated college 2013) who I would consider a "potential audiophile".  He has Spotify "premium" (320 kbps, standard is 192 kbps or something like that), and considers it his primary source of in-home music.  I asked if the 320 kbps thing bothers him, and he said he would be willing to pay more for lossless.

Yes, one major concern is the view young people have toward recreation in general.  Many can't seem to sit in a seat without looking at their iPhone every 5 minutes, even well into their 20s.  Many don't watch TV "on a TV" anymore.  Entertainment is morphing.  Yes, movies are still very popular, but that's an outside-the-home activity.

Well, still more to report about that multi-week debate, later....  Have a nice weekend, all.   

[smk]

Right on the button, JLM. Audio has a serious marketing problem when stereo speakers MSRP is more than the GDP of some third world countries. And I think the original post about: "Everyone listens to crappy quality audio on speaker phones and earbuds and likes it" is a little over the top, but some part of me agrees.

[JLM]

Some are music lovers, with no interest in improved resolution versus audiophiles who want music at higher resolution, and that's OK. 

Keep in mind that compared to years ago (transistor radios, cassette based walkman, boomboxes), the quality and convenience of portable music nowadays is extreme.  Same for sound via the TV/VHS machine versus Blu-Ray and even modest HT systems.  Life is good for the average music lover.

I see audiophiles feeling threatened by cheap and easy solutions (like portable/tiny DACs, streaming, headphones) that approach the quality of our big, expensive, complicated systems (the point of diminishing returns can come into play very early).  Frankly we're all prisoners of the same recording industry that sells to John Q. Public, not audiophiles.  So they will cater to the vast majority of the market and are under pressure to produce recordings that flatter cheaper gear rather than the high-end stuff.

[charmerci]

Some are music lovers, with no interest in improved resolution versus audiophiles who want music at higher resolution, and that's OK.  Keep in mind that compared to years ago (transistor radios, cassette based walkman, boomboxes), the quality and convenience of portable music nowadays is extreme.  Same for sound via the TV/VHS machine versus Blu-Ray and even modest HT systems.  Life is good for the average music lover.I see audiophiles feeling threatened by cheap and easy solutions (like portable/tiny DACs, streaming, headphones) that approach the quality of our big, expensive, complicated systems (the point of diminishing returns can come into play very early).  Frankly we're all prisoners of the same recording industry that sells to John Q. Public, not audiophiles.  So they will cater to the vast majority of the market and are under pressure to produce recordings that flatter cheaper gear rather than the high-end stuff.

Yup, some people simply just don't care.


I have a friend who's really into music. I put on one of the best sounding recordings I had and turned it up. He wasn't the least bit interested about the sound because he just kept talking and didn't really care about the music so I had to turn it down and put something else on.

[AmpDesigner333]

One other point my friend made was that people are waaaaaay stressed out these days.  My comeback was that they would be less stressed out if they spend some time just relaxing to music.  He has cause and effect backward.

[londonbarn]

Well said JLM....

[OzarkTom]

For many of the younger crowd, video games is a release for stress. If you follow the downward trend of audio through the last 20-30 years, you will see a similar rise in home theatre and video games.

[Folsom]

I find the idea of denouncing our "big expensive ridiculous hobby" to be pathetic in the form of an argument.

Any audio gear that's worth a damn has a legacy quality to it. It can be re-used for a long time. Sure some of it might need a few parts or such at times, but... It has the potential to retain money and work in your own country.

Was a Luxman amp from the 1970's a big bad waste of resources, that was just used yesterday for vinyl, and goes for hundreds of dollars on eBay?

Or is it more wasteful to make utter crap, things that plug into an ipod today but not tomorrow, things that will sell for nothing at a garage sale or be thrown away.

Seriously how much waste and insult to people's livelihood are say some Daedalus speakers compared to the next boat load of plastic docks and ear buds for phones and ipods?

The youth today accepts bullshit wages, and are failing like a junkie shooting up heroine with a street bum after just quitting, in their efforts to reduce consumption. They can't seem to see the connection between tolerating shit for pay, and an inability to purchase legacy items to further their goals.

No one should be anything less than pissed off they can't afford to pay their neighbor for some respectable stereo equipment their kids could inherit. And the youth just make the assumption they'll never be able to afford it anyway.

[JLM]

Yes we live in a disposable age, but not exactly sure how the current wage structure or heirloom quality gear directly relates to popularity of audio.

People's situations change, priorities drift, and of course technology marches on.  We live in an age of constant change and increasing complexity, accordingly romantic visions of holding on the stuff for decades or generations are being more and more rare.  Some vintage gear is still functioning well, but just like ancient buildings, only the very best are still in use.  How much of legacy gear is still useful/competitive?  And we're discussing luxury items, not something we all need like furniture, maybe a car, or a house.

Note that many audiophiles value the hunt of gear more than the prize of putting together a great system, so destiny pieces have no meaning to them.

Daedalus is a good example of wonderful destination gear: Expensive (few can afford to prioritize them ahead of a car, downpayment on a house, etc.); Huge (again few have properly setup/large space to use them to their full capacity); Poor domestic acceptance (to sound good they need to dominate the room and the finishes put all but the very best furniture to shame).  In these times of tight economies, downsizing, competing forms of entertainment, and convenience too much must be sacrificed to bring something like a wonderful pair of Daedalus speakers into all but the homes of the top 1%. 

Yes in this age of instant gratification it's tempting to jump at the latest affordable gizmo, few of which are well made.  Conversely owning a substantial CD library is a sick joke when you can have the same from Tidal for $20/month (that requires no storage/insurance and can be used anywhere on all your devices).  My speakers use a full range driver that is no longer made, so if/when they fail what use could I get out of the quarter sawn cherry cabinets?  What about my killer cassette deck from 1977 (that I can't remember whatever happened to it)?  And what is the cost of swapping legacy pieces just to find out it doesn't synergize with your system and having to sell it at a loss?

[mfsoa]

Thanks, Doc.

You just saved me from thoroughly crossing the line...whew...

Back on track - There's not a hobby in the world where the true enthusiast can't be called nutso from those outside looking in.

Maybe it's just because we are on the inside of this hobby that we seem to be blasted by the outsiders.

But I do have to wonder why the objective camp, who clearly does not care about the last smidge of SQ, feels that it is their responsibility to save us from ourselves and then mock if we don't grab onto their lifeline

Do they go on sneaker web sites and say that the sneaker-ophile's opinion is not valid because it was not derived from a DBT?  Do they go on the Rolex forum (assuming there is such a thing) and blast the Rolex owner because a $10 Timex does a better job? etc.

And one more thing - Don't we all insert the hidden words ("In my opinion...") prior to reading anything audio-related from any of us or from pro reviews? It's just comical how we get blasted for things that the "experts" say, regardless of whether we take them seriously or not.

-Mike

[AmpDesigner333]

Thanks, Doc.

You just saved me from thoroughly crossing the line...whew...

Back on track - There's not a hobby in the world where the true enthusiast can't be called nutso from those outside looking in.

Maybe it's just because we are on the inside of this hobby that we seem to be blasted by the outsiders.

But I do have to wonder why the objective camp, who clearly does not care about the last smidge of SQ, feels that it is their responsibility to save us from ourselves and then mock if we don't grab onto their lifeline

Do they go on sneaker web sites and say that the sneaker-ophile's opinion is not valid because it was not derived from a DBT?  Do they go on the Rolex forum (assuming there is such a thing) and blast the Rolex owner because a $10 Timex does a better job? etc.

And one more thing - Don't we all insert the hidden words ("In my opinion...") prior to reading anything audio-related from any of us or from pro reviews? It's just comical how we get blasted for things that the "experts" say, regardless of whether we take them seriously or not.

-Mike

Yes, blasted by outsiders.  Good way to put it.  Fact is, they are just jealous!

My friend did admit that he wishes he had a nice "audiophile level" setup sometimes.

(:

[soundbitten1]

There is no need for hand wringing. Everyone must find their own way.

[AmpDesigner333]

Update: Mr Anti-Audiophile visited last week. He didn't take me up on my offer to play something I described as an awesome demo. The reason?  We talked too long and he had to leave. As he was leaving he mentioned some recent personal difficulties that he neglected to mention before. It occurred to me that he just can't "sit down" and enjoy the music. He has a lot on his mind.  I said it's ironic because sitting and listening to a QUALITY system would probably help him relax a bit considering the stress he must be under. He chalked it up to a catch-22, stressed because he can't relax.  After talking for a while about this I offered to lend him some equipment and he declined because he "won't make time to hook it up".  Don't get this guy wrong, he's working in audio, mostly indirectly, but he knows more audio people than your average 50-something. So, suddenly we realized he was in a hurry and another half hour had gone by. Still, the music started when he left, but not before.  He knows I'm writing about him.

- Tommy O

[SoCalWJS]

Update: Mr Anti-Audiophile visited last week. He didn't take me up on my offer to play something I described as an awesome demo. The reason?  We talked too long and he had to leave. As he was leaving he mentioned some recent personal difficulties that he neglected to mention before. It occurred to me that he just can't "sit down" and enjoy the music. He has a lot on his mind.  I said it's ironic because sitting and listening to a QUALITY system would probably help him relax a bit considering the stress he must be under. He chalked it up to a catch-22, stressed because he can't relax. After talking for a while about this I offered to lend him some equipment and he declined because he "won't make time to hook it up".  Don't get this guy wrong, he's working in audio, mostly indirectly, but he knows more audio people than your average 50-something. So, suddenly we realized he was in a hurry and another half hour had gone by. Still, the music started when he left, but not before.  He knows I'm writing about him.

- Tommy O

Lotta truth right there. I love to sit and listen to a really, really good system playing music that I like. I can frequently feel my blood pressure dropping....

[dB Cooper]

It's things like $67K speaker cables (do they exist? Sennheiser makes $55,000 headphones...) that create the public image (to the extent that this hobby has a public image) of a bunch of wackos. Personally I think it's 'wacko' to spend 67K on speakers, let alone cables, but if you've got it and don't care, why should I.

By the way, I have heard the 'audio is dying' argument from several people involved in running and/or exhibiting at audio shows. It isn't just your friend. These shows exist at least in part because the industry isn't healthy enough to support a retail infrastructure (where people can be exposed to quality sound, and importantly, listen before they buy) anymore. I have been an audiophile for over 40 years. When I started out, there were audio shops scattered all over my hometown. To my knowledge, only two remain today, and the owner of one of them told me that it wasn't for home theater, he would have to close his doors. Music systems won't keep the lights on. There needs to be a step up from el cheapo mass market caca before you get to "deep end" six figure conspicuous-consumption set ups. It's there, but you really gotta hunt for it.

This is all very sad because, when you think about it, music is as close to a universal language as any art form can get. It is everywhere where there are people and it is hard to find someone who doesn't like some form of music. Good sounding music in the home should be an easy sell but $67,000 speaker cables aren't going to help the cause. BTW, I've heard a number of megabuck systems that sounded quite inferior to some more reasonably priced gear. To each his own.

[JLM]

What's high-end?  For the average joe, it might be seen as a $1000 system.  For many audiophiles it might take a $10,000 system.  For some it might be represented by at least a $100,000 system.  BTW I listened to $67k speaker cables (connected to $200k+ speakers) last summer at a local shop.

Seems like this guy is too busy (or poorly manages his time) and has a very limited attention span (all quite common nowadays).  We are becoming more and more addicted to stimulation.  Some can't even sleep without music or TV on.  And it seems that we're more jittery (exhibiting nervous energy) even while we're less physically active.  Being busy has gotten to be fashionable (it uncool to not be busy).  So it's getting increasingly hard for folks to just sit and seriously listen (without picking up a book or falling asleep).  These same people get bored watching baseball or a play.

[sfox7076]

This thread constantly amuses me.  Anyway, audio isn't the issue.  It is the changing nature of retail. What shops in your town that sell elastic demand goods are doing well?  convenience is key. People want to order online from Amazon and just have it show up.