[G Georgopoulos]

Well, this year, I was told that I need to "get out of this little audiophile niche"!

Any thought on that one?

Happy New Year!

get into professional audio,big opportunities there for good class-d amps 

[charmerci]

Ahhhhh, the holidays....  Time for family dinners, and the occasional "you know what you should do....".

Well, this year, I was told that I need to "get out of this little audiophile niche"!

Any thought on that one?

Happy New Year!

Sounds like someone is a bit jealous that you're doing what you love to do.


Carry on my wayward son....!

[gregfisk]

Ahhhhh, the holidays....  Time for family dinners, and the occasional "you know what you should do....".

Well, this year, I was told that I need to "get out of this little audiophile niche"!

Any thought on that one?

Happy New Year!

This is a bit confusing to me... If this is your business how can it be a niche? Is she/he talking about a niche market?

Happy New Year to All!

[AmpDesigner333]

Laughing out loud here!  Great replies!  Thanks (:

Happy New Year!

[AmpDesigner333]

Here's the link:
http://kck.st/1NWutrj

Please pledge $1 to show support for Audiophiles and our no-nonsense approach to fine audio.

It only takes a minute or so to pledge and BE COUNTED!

We're tying to get to 100 backers by Monday so the program gets major exposure on project highlight sites.  Anti-Audiophile Guy said "no way you'll get 100 backers.".  Let's prove him WRONG!  Thanks, all (:

-Tommy O

[AmpDesigner333]

This is a bit confusing to me... If this is your business how can it be a niche? Is she/he talking about a niche market?

Happy New Year to All!

He considers the entire high end audio market a narrow niche (and shrinking at that)....  This argument has gone on for quite a while, and he doesn't think much of the "audio hobby".  We do agree that the economy has SOMETHING to do with times of slow sales, but disagree on the root cause.  The love of music and the appreciation of great sound are lost on him.  He has said that audiophiles are "out there".  I agree, if it's superior intellect he's referring to (:

Thanks for your post.

[AmpDesigner333]

Here's the link:
http://kck.st/1NWutrj

Please pledge $1 to show support for Audiophiles and our no-nonsense approach to fine audio.

It only takes a minute or so to pledge and BE COUNTED!

We're tying to get to 100 backers by Monday so the program gets major exposure on project highlight sites.  Anti-Audiophile Guy said "no way you'll get 100 backers.".  Let's prove him WRONG!  Thanks, all (:

-Tommy O

ONLY 34 HOURS LEFT !!!!

[undertow]

Most people have more time to waste writing comments here trying to prove a point than to listen to their systems. For the most part many systems sit, and collect dust 6 days of the week on average just like that treadmill, for some people they use their system 6 days a year total!

The real problem whether you can afford it or not it comes down to the practicality of the whole thing.

Reality is unless you can have a dedicated area (environment), IE. nobody else around to bother, or a soundproofed room in order to go crank the tunes anytime you want, even better if you have a soundproofed room at work which we all spend 90% of our waking hours. The costs, and intricacies involved to truly make a system great or use able is a whole other domestic problem compared to other hobbies.

Its sorta like Firearms for people being a fairly significant investment, but you can't just walk outside and shoot anywhere, or in your house unless you have a specific environment which some lucky people do. Most people get to go to a range a few times a year, and enjoy the process of cleaning, and using them, but unfortunately these types of activities are expensive, and hard to integrate into everyone's lives.

So in the end with the "Vinyl" resurgence its mostly guys hanging out for 30 minuets in their apartment listening on headphones. Even many seasoned veterans are giving up, and "Making it simpler"... It is not just a challenge of pricing or marketing at this point.

Just look at the ridiculous amount of used equipment available which has made Audiogon rich with a good majority of people struggling to just get rid of stuff, and not necessarily to upgrade.

So I can see the push back on this specifically when you break down the absolute sound restrictions. Basically you can run around on a loud Harley outside, or playing your Maserati/Harmon auto sound system, but when it comes to audio as a hobby for stress or relaxation its a very tricky situation to do it when or where you need to do it. So I can totally see why it might just be the most unobtainable "hobby" out there for most individuals.

[undertow]

Commitment to the dedication necessary, and attention span for these activities will eventually erode this further.

This is why it will never be mainstream, or compete on a level with other noisy, costly hobbies, or other life priorities so the challenge is just to big, and I feel for sure the specific segment of audio we are talking about will continue to diminish regardless of what "social aspects" you try to assign as the root cause...

By the way the market share is minimal at best, and WAY too many companies right now can sell you what you need with virtually flawless performance whether a DAC, Class D amp or whatever. Unfortunately this industry will have to consolidate further much like it did when all the big boys were basically bought, and combined 5 to 10 years ago. Big reason we have 3 car companies now, and airlines which both have a much larger customer base, and nobody needs / wants this like transportation, or arguably firearms.

Pure practicality, and competition from alternatives will continue to be a challenge considering most people can get their music fix on a laptop, and headphones if necessary regardless of affordability, or marketing. High end audio for Audio-fools will serve its purpose as a very niche' group which is the best you can hope for, but a serious growing segment of the industry is very unlikely today.

So Harmon International learned this years ago when their home theater receivers would not cut the mustard if they wanted to be top dogs in electronic sales as it was way to small a segment, and went 95% into pure mobile / car systems.. Why was it successful, and big profits for them? 99% of the time to capture peoples attention span with music is on the go because people are forced with very little competition to sit in a car for 2 hours so audio is an easy sell, or even just 15 minuets back and fourth to work. Not to mention they integrated it all with other gadgets via GPS etc... Good luck getting most people to sit still in a basement staring at the wall like the old Maxell commercial because you better have an HDTV with that guy wearing 3d glasses!

Get into mobile or go home it seems might be the answer. Hell even Mcintosh, and Sonus faber are selling in Best Buy now!

[AmpDesigner333]

Commitment to the dedication necessary, and attention span for these activities will eventually erode this further.

This is why it will never be mainstream, or compete on a level with other noisy, costly hobbies, or other life priorities so the challenge is just to big, and I feel for sure the specific segment of audio we are talking about will continue to diminish regardless of what "social aspects" you try to assign as the root cause...

By the way the market share is minimal at best, and WAY too many companies right now can sell you what you need with virtually flawless performance whether a DAC, Class D amp or whatever. Unfortunately this industry will have to consolidate further much like it did when all the big boys were basically bought, and combined 5 to 10 years ago. Big reason we have 3 car companies now, and airlines which both have a much larger customer base, and nobody needs / wants this like transportation, or arguably firearms.

Pure practicality, and competition from alternatives will continue to be a challenge considering most people can get their music fix on a laptop, and headphones if necessary regardless of affordability, or marketing. High end audio for Audio-fools will serve its purpose as a very niche' group which is the best you can hope for, but a serious growing segment of the industry is very unlikely today.

So Harmon International learned this years ago when their home theater receivers would not cut the mustard if they wanted to be top dogs in electronic sales as it was way to small a segment, and went 95% into pure mobile / car systems.. Why was it successful, and big profits for them? 99% of the time to capture peoples attention span with music is on the go because people are forced with very little competition to sit in a car for 2 hours so audio is an easy sell, or even just 15 minuets back and fourth to work. Not to mention they integrated it all with other gadgets via GPS etc... Good luck getting most people to sit still in a basement staring at the wall like the old Maxell commercial because you better have an HDTV with that guy wearing 3d glasses!

Get into mobile or go home it seems might be the answer. Hell even Mcintosh, and Sonus faber are selling in Best Buy now!

Best Buy's still in business?

Just kidding.

Lots of excellent points in your posts!  Thanks so much for taking the time to write them.  You write very well, too, which is rare.

Would you consider supporting our efforts?  Here's the link, and a $1 donation is all it takes to be counted:
http://kck.st/1NWutrj
There's less than a day left on this campaign.  Thanks again either way.

[AmpDesigner333]

Best Buy's still in business?

Just kidding.

Lots of excellent points in your posts!  Thanks so much for taking the time to write them.  You write very well, too, which is rare.

Would you consider supporting our efforts?  Here's the link, and a $1 donation is all it takes to be counted:
http://kck.st/1NWutrj
There's less than a day left on this campaign.  Thanks again either way.

About half an hour to go....

[AmpDesigner333]

Sounds like someone is a bit jealous that you're doing what you love to do.


Carry on my wayward son....!

I think you might have figured the root cause!  Thanks.

[a.wayne]

He considers the entire high end audio market a narrow niche (and shrinking at that)....  This argument has gone on for quite a while, and he doesn't think much of the "audio hobby".  We do agree that the economy has SOMETHING to do with times of slow sales, but disagree on the root cause.  The love of music and the appreciation of great sound are lost on him.  He has said that audiophiles are "out there".  I agree, if it's superior intellect he's referring to (:

Thanks for your post.

It's a niche market , absolute cottage cheese  and yes its been shrinking since the early 90's  in the states. When Asia moves away from 2 ch the circle will close ....

[AmpDesigner333]

It's a niche market , absolute cottage cheese  and yes its been shrinking since the early 90's  in the states. When Asia moves away from 2 ch the circle will close ....

Oh ye of little faith....  I predict a resurgence led by Cherry products....  Thanks, and have a great weekend (:

[a.wayne]

Ok , you are right , i miscalculated .... 

[AmpDesigner333]

OK, here's one for you....  Mister anti-audiophile told me to "sell wire at a 20x markup, like the other guys, the SMART guys".  You could have heard me yell "What the ****?" from the next county!  After all the conversations where I explained that I DESPISE audio rip-offs, he's just trying to get me riled up at this point.

This particular conversation started because I had an argument on Facebook about HDMI cables.  Some company is telling people that their HDMI cable is "louder" than competitor's products.  I explained that HDMI is an all-digital interface, so they must be lying.  He agreed that they are lying, but claims this proves his ridiculous theory.

He reminded me of the reaction to my "truth thread" last year.  He said I'm fighting an impossible battle against the liars because "audio guys believe them".

We eventually agreed that this is something that's unfortunately prevalent in all of CONSUMER ELECTRONICS, not just audio.  I argued: as the price goes up, the customer has the tendency to be more educated.  He agreed with that too!  So, his argument contradicts itself.  Without getting too personal, he sends me emails occasionally with political cartoons and such.  His arguments in that area don't hold water either.  I could write more about our most recent conversation, but I'm frustrated enough now that I wrote that.  Thanks for reading it.

[jseipp]

Tommy, I for one believe what I hear and I believe that the more "audio guys" hear your stuff, the more loyal customers you'll have.  Relationships of every kind work best when they're grounded in honesty, not based on trading in snake oil.

At the bottom of it all, in this pursuit hearing is believing....

[virtue]

A few quick thoughts...

1. Most of us are totally overloaded with work and recreational opportunities.  Audio time is relatively more "expensive" now that alternatives have improved (ie. TV programming, internet, shopping, cooking, fitness, etc.)  So I'd agree with his initial observation.

2. Products like SONOS are absolutely amazing and affordable.  The "fake" prosumer niche that Bose had to themselves for so many years is now quite "real" and very compelling.  Are these customers "undeserving" or unworthy of being considered "audiophiles?"  Maybe some of them don't really "care" about "high-end" audio to participate in an experience to which we all relate.  That is the essential disconnect with people like us who really do care (and often our spouses).

3. "Audiophile" begs definition.  I would argue that it has something to do with having an elevated or unusual interest in audio products, for any of a number of reasons including sonic quality, value, technology, community, pride, patronage, identity, bragging rights, craftsmanship, aesthetics, music, etc.  Why do people buy expensive artwork?  Many reasons... and most in the eye of the beholder.  Is it wrong that when Ikea started carrying prints, a whole bunch of people got color on their walls for the first time?  Can you buy Ikea prints and still be an appreciator of "art"?

4. An appreciation for SQ does not even require an appreciation for music (that sounds awful, doesn't it?) or for relaxing, etc.  My first audiophile experience was a very technical one - listening to cave recordings of water droplets. 

5.  Listening to music alone stimulates our brains differently from other activities.  It lends itself to meditative states, reflection,  euphoria, etc...  but also permits multi-tasking.  For that reason, some will invest more to get a higher quality experience and often buy separates for variety.

Seth

[carmaniac13]

So I'm the friend Tommy mentioned early in this thread who uses Spotify for the most part. (as he mentioned, I at least have the premium version 320kbps streaming)

A lot of good points have been made in this thread.  Two really resonated with me:

1. The discussion of the loudness wars.  This is part of the reason I use Spotify.  Most of my casual listening is "mainstream" music, which is almost all terribly mastered these days, so the difference between 320 and lossless is going to be a moot point on most recordings.  At the moment, I'd rather spend $10 on Spotify than $20 on Tidal.  I may give Tidal a shot at some point though.  For both better and worse, Apple changed the music game with the iPod.  Music became super accessible and portable, and convenience/accessibility took priority over quality.  As such, the record labels adapted to the market (who could blame them), and now master their music to "sound good" on earbuds. (using compression and brickwalling, to limit dynamic range and allow people to drive their car, walk around, ride the train, work at their desk, with a stream of music at constant volume)

2. The comment about IKEA starting to sell art prints.  "Audiophiles" will always be a niche in the market.  Because audiophiles, in my opinion, are people that put a priority on quality sound in their lives.  The fact of the matter is that most people will never put sound quality ahead of the other priorities they have in life, and that's OK.  That being said though, audiophiles are the reason there is high quality sound equipment still being developed and sold.  And we should rejoice at that, because ultimately, the R&D to make the high quality equipment that we'll pay a premium for, gets to eventually trickle down into economical products that the masses are willing to pay for.  And that's really our hope, isn't it?  To get as many people as we can to experience high quality sound, and enjoy that experience.  I would argue that just because someone doesn't prioritize high quality audio equipment in their life, doesn't mean they wouldn't appreciate listening to it.  So luckily, the average consumer has access to higher quality budget equipment than ever before, and that quality can only get better as research and materials push the envelope of what's achievable on a budget.

Unrelated, I'll be hosting an equipment demo for Digital Amplifier Company on Feb 6 in Allentown.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=139553.0

If anyone is interested in stopping by, get in touch with me or Tommy!

[SteveMiller]

Seth.....   

I keep reading your post.   Well said.   I think I'll save those lines as each time I read it I comprehend the ideas a little more.  1-5 are all well thought but interestingly presented and interpreted observations on our culture at this time.   You must be a keen observer of fellow humans.  We should compare notes!