[nocrapman]

Hi folks,
I have a Bryston BP26-4BSST2 setup as balanced with a gain of 23db powering a Magnepan 1.7.

I was listening to Eagles - Hell freezes over - Hotel California and when I cranked it up to unusually loud levels (LOML was out), it started clipping - especially at every drum-bass hit. The sound was breaking and the led changing red and blinking. Decreasing volume to comfortable levels resolved it.

I am dismayed as I thought the 4B was ample power with 500W at 4ohms that the 1.7 poses.

Is this expected?
Are these speakers underpowered?
Is my amp behaving out of the norm?

Do I need to change amps? I was planning to get an amp for a different system, but I might have to deal with this first and relegate the 4bsst2 to my other system.
I cross posted in the Bryston circle as well for feedback.

Thanks

[RDavidson]

Maggie's are not an easy load for any amplifier, even the mighty Bryston 4B.

Maybe look at something like a Magtech. It was essentially designed FOR planars and electrostats, and is very highly regarded.

If you want to stick with Bryston you'd need to go to the 7B monoblocks, which are also excellent.

[G Georgopoulos]

Maggie's are not an easy load for any amplifier, even the mighty Bryston 4B.

For any amplifier?,are you kidding me right?
perhaps you talk about speaker sensitivity right?
then you might have a point? not much spl for a given power drive
a load say 8 ohms can be driven to extremes by amplifiers
please remember this,big amps can be built!
but you (i assume) talk about sensitivity?
again, i disagree with you,there are big amps out there
to make any load sing

dont take this personal,it's a true fact...

[nocrapman]

I thought 4B was a 'big amp'.
That is subjective I guess. I did plunk down 'big cash' for it.
Not enough I guess.

Can I have some suggestions for an adequate amp - stereo or mono - that will not clip too easy when I crank it up?

Will Sanders Magtech be enough in the stereo config? I don't see myself spending 11K on the mono pair.

Will Wyred's - monos work?

How about the emotiva XPA-1s?

[RDavidson]

For any amplifier?,are you kidding me right?
perhaps you talk about speaker sensitivity right?
then you might have a point? not much spl for a given power drive
a load say 8 ohms can be driven to extremes by amplifiers
please remember this,big amps can be built!
but you (i assume) talk about sensitivity?
again, i disagree with you,there are big amps out there
to make any load sing

dont take this personal,it's a true fact...

All I'm saying is that Maggie's are a much more difficult load than most "typical" speakers. Even a monster amp will have to work harder on Maggies than it would on "typical" speakers especially if one wants rock concert levels in a LARGE space. That's all I'm saying. I didn't expect anyone to take the semantics of my statement so literal.

[G Georgopoulos]

All I'm saying is that Maggie's are a much more difficult load than most "typical" speakers. Even a monster amp will have to work harder on Maggies than it would on "typical" speakers especially if one wants rock concert levels in a LARGE space. That's all I'm saying. I didn't expect anyone to take the semantics of my statement so literal.

what do you mean by difficult load?.there are also huge amps that will smoke small speakers...

[RDavidson]

I thought 4B was a 'big amp'.
That is subjective I guess. I did plunk down 'big cash' for it.
Not enough I guess.

Can I have some suggestions for an adequate amp - stereo or mono - that will not clip too easy when I crank it up?

Will Sanders Magtech be enough in the stereo config? I don't see myself spending 11K on the mono pair.

Will Wyred's - monos work?

How about the emotiva XPA-1s?

Read about the stereo Magtech amp. It is designed FOR planars and electrostats which present a somewhat unique challenge for amplifiers. The stereo amp has about double the power of the 4B. From Sanders

"Magnetic speakers differ from electrostatic speakers in one fundamental way -- they require massive amounts of current and power.  This causes the power supply voltages in an amplifier to change dramatically (typically by 30%) between idle and full power.

Electronics have their lowest distortion and optimum performance at a specific design voltage.  If the voltage varies, the amplifier's performance will suffer.

An additional problem in amplifiers is that they require bias to eliminate crossover notch distortion and determine their class of operation.  The bias will vary as the voltage does, which will further reduce performance.

An amplifier's voltage will fluctuate wildly as dynamic music is played.  This causes the amplifier's distortion and bias to vary constantly and fail to meet its full performance potential.

As if all these problems are not enough, as an amplifier's voltage sags under load, the power it can deliver is greatly reduced.  If the voltage would remain stable, the amplifier could produce much more power.  Since most audiophile speaker systems require several hundred watts of power to avoid clipping and compression of the dynamic range, power is extremely important...

THE SOLUTION

All quality, line-level electronics use voltage regulation in their power supplies to produce a stable voltage, regardless of load or the mains voltage.  Audiophiles would not consider using a source component that did not have regulated power supplies.  So why use amplifiers with unregulated supplies?

The main problem is heat.  Amplifiers operate at much higher voltages and currents than line level source components.  These higher voltages and currents forces conventional regulator designs to waste large amounts of energy, which wastes expensive electricity and causes the amplifier to get very hot.

Also, many regulator designs radiate RF (Radio Frequency) energy when switching high currents and voltages.  This RF gets into the amplifier's electronics and can cause instability, oscillation, and noise.  As a result of these problems, modern power amplifiers do not use regulated power supplies and fail to take advantage of the benefits available from doing so.

Sanders has solved these problems by developing a voltage regulator that is essentially 100% efficient.  There is no heat dissipated by the regulator system.  There is no high-power/high-voltage switching that causes heat generation or RF problems.

The regulator in the Magtech amplifier maintains a stable voltage regardless of load or reasonable changes in the line voltage feeding the amplifier.  It runs stone cold, produces zero RF energy, and is simple and reliable.

Unlike other amplifiers, the distortion in the Magtech amplifier is virtually unchanged regardless of power level.  The bias is stable regardless of load."

[RDavidson]

what do you mean by difficult load?.there are also huge amps that will smoke small speakers...

GG, I know that you know what I mean. Now you're just playing coy.

[G Georgopoulos]

GG, I know that you know what I mean. Now you're just playing coy.

I play coy,you play coy...cheers...

[*Scotty*]

It's not completely clear from the Magnepan website whether or not the 86dB sensitivity rating is measured quasi-anechoically or in the "average" living room, but 500watts into 4ohms with give you a little over 109dB maybe somewhat louder in your listening room,or not.
I would say from an electrical standpoint that Maggies are easy to drive, but they are not the most sensitive loudspeaker out there.
 You might download some of the SPL meter apps from Google play or iTunes and measure how many SPLs you have at your listening position when the amp is clipping. You have something of a problem, even another 3dB of volume, if possible, will require an amp capable of producing 1000 watts into 4 ohms.
Scotty

[RDavidson]

Well stated Scotty, as usual.

Question : Why do Magnepans "need" so much power? They have a stable impedance. They are a non-reactive load. Their sensitivity is a bit below average. They don't have much moving mass. Is it simply the amount of surface area that makes them "difficult" plus their rather low sensitivity? They just seem to drink as much power as you can feed them.

[G Georgopoulos]

the point here is how much power capacity these speakers have?
from that you can calculate the spl
i think if the power capacity is high,they are meant for higher power amps
cheers...

[Quiet Earth]

Hi nocrapman,

First of all, I love your handle. Way better than mine. 

Were you playing a vinyl record when you experienced the "clipping"? Just currious. I thought maybe you are getting some feedback that you don't normally get when you play the speakers at normal levels.

Have you tried the higher gain setting for louder listening sessions? Sometimes when comes time to crank it up, what you really need is more gain, not more power. It sure seems like you have plenty of wattage available. Even for Maggie's.

[Phil A]

I thought 4B was a 'big amp'.
That is subjective I guess. I did plunk down 'big cash' for it.
Not enough I guess.

Can I have some suggestions for an adequate amp - stereo or mono - that will not clip too easy when I crank it up?

Will Sanders Magtech be enough in the stereo config? I don't see myself spending 11K on the mono pair.

Will Wyred's - monos work?

How about the emotiva XPA-1s?

My old 14BSST (15 amp version) did not like the impedance of my old Thiel 7.2s.  On even semi-demanding things (music or movies) it would shut down from heat (I built a custom amp stand with fans eventually).  It was a bit better with my Thiel 3.7s (which are a worse load than the Maggie 1.7s - http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/floor-standing/magnepan-magneplanar-mg-17-flat-panel-quasi-ribbon-full-range-speakers/  vs.  http://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs37-loudspeaker-measurements#sqqDL3svsKzPiCch.97) but one could burn themselves playing certain things.  The (Thiel) 3.7s behave much better with my Modwright KWA-150SE but it can get somewhat hot (but not nearly as hot as my old 14BSST).  It would probably have an easier time with Maggie 1.7s (so that is one suggestion - obviously more money used even than XPA-1s which the spec sheet recommends a 4 ohm minimum load- I have an XPA200 in a spare system).  I do use a Wyred monoblock for the center channel (my main system is an integrated AV system) and it is fine on my Thiel MCS1 (which is rated 4 ohms, 3 minimum and the spec sheet says 3 ohms in the minimum load).  Not sure what the budget is but Levinson amps are usually good for difficult impedance speakers (e.g. - https://app.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-mark-levinson-no-332-fully-serviced-mint-customer-trade-in-2015-10-05-amplifiers-06801-bethel-ct)

[SteveFord]

If you're talking about rock concert levels, have you considered large tube amplifiers? 

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I find it interesting that your Bryston clipped.  I have a pair of Magnepan 1.6's and have run them with a Parasound A21 and now a Pass X250 amp.  I have turned the volume up with both amps to see how they fair and they handled the Maggies with ease.

[Phil A]

Besides what I recommended in my previous post, I'd recommend an Odyssey amp as well

[a.wayne]

Hi folks,
I have a Bryston BP26-4BSST2 setup as balanced with a gain of 23db powering a Magnepan 1.7.

I was listening to Eagles - Hell freezes over - Hotel California and when I cranked it up to unusually loud levels (LOML was out), it started clipping - especially at every drum-bass hit. The sound was breaking and the led changing red and blinking. Decreasing volume to comfortable levels resolved it.

I am dismayed as I thought the 4B was ample power with 500W at 4ohms that the 1.7 poses.

Is this expected?
Are these speakers underpowered?
Is my amp behaving out of the norm?

Do I need to change amps? I was planning to get an amp for a different system, but I might have to deal with this first and relegate the 4bsst2 to my other system.
I cross posted in the Bryston circle as well for feedback.

Thanks

clipping on snares, say it isn't so ..........  Yep power for live stuff is a must unless it's highly compressed, I do find on that recording  the crowd roar at the end takes out alot of amp  too.


Yep , them Maggie's going to need power , same for all if you are running speakers below 93db/w/m 

[a.wayne]

I find it interesting that your Bryston clipped.  I have a pair of Magnepan 1.6's and have run them with a Parasound A21 and now a Pass X250 amp.  I have turned the volume up with both amps to see how they fair and they handled the Maggies with ease.

Depends on  recorded material , listening distance and SPL ,  BTW how do you know the A21 or the X250 is not clipping, the Pass is a strong amp and 4 ohm is nothing the A21, current limits below 4 ohm and will go into protect if driven hard below 4 ohm, it will not swing current like the Pass......

[nocrapman]

Hi nocrapman,

First of all, I love your handle. Way better than mine. 

Were you playing a vinyl record when you experienced the "clipping"? Just currious. I thought maybe you are getting some feedback that you don't normally get when you play the speakers at normal levels.

Have you tried the higher gain setting for louder listening sessions? Sometimes when comes time to crank it up, what you really need is more gain, not more power. It sure seems like you have plenty of wattage available. Even for Maggie's.

Thx QE!
A lady on a coffee forum had a strong negative reaction and wanted me banned because of the impropriety.
I was not playing Vinyl; just streaming from the Squeezebox duet.

I have tried the higher gain with similar results.