[Paul McNeil]

A previous post,'$2000 Power amps to drive Maggies', which I participated in, was stimulating, and contentious, and I'm not attempting to continue that latter element here.

However, as a stimulus it led me to experiment. I substituted for my Crown XLS 2500 an Emotive XPA-200  (my upstairs center channel amp) for driving maggie 1.7s. Both amps are less than a year old;a $350 class D (Crown) versus a $499 class A/B (Emotiva).
 
I listened at relatively low level (80 dB) to Bill Evans jazz (Everyone Loves Bill Evans) which I know well, after replacing the Crown with the Emotiva.

The Emotiva A/B amp cast a pleasant veil/glow over the music. Nice, perhaps, for background listening.

I then put the Crown back.

The Crown, by contrast, was far more transparent; it increased detail, such as instrument separation and resolution, and bass articulation especially. It sounded far more 'real', to me (my room, my old ears, etc).

What I don't have is a more expensive class A/B amp to experiment with...maybe I'll order one from an online source that allows returns (there were lots of suggestions as to what brand, in the above mentioned post!).

The search goes on...

 

[Roger Gustavsson]

I substituted for my Crown XLS 2500 an Emotive XPA-200  (my upstairs center channel amp) for driving maggie 1.7s. Both amps are less than a year old;a $350 class D (Crown) versus a $499 class A/B (Emotiva).

The Crown XLS 2500 is $599 at their homepage. Where do you get it for $350?

I think you should add that you listened to the combination of amps and speakers. You have found a good match of amps and speakers, at least to your liking. Other speakers can give a different subjective result.

Emotiva's more expensive power amps are very good and highly respected by Swedish audiophiles.

[Early B.]

That experiment merely reinforces the importance of power, especially for Maggies. It's not even a fair fight -- 150 wpc vs. 440 wpc. Obviously, a much more expensive, high powered, high current amp will make the Crown frown.

[a.wayne]

A previous post,'$2000 Power amps to drive Maggies', which I participated in, was stimulating, and contentious, and I'm not attempting to continue that latter element here.

However, as a stimulus it led me to experiment. I substituted for my Crown XLS 2500 an Emotive XPA-200  (my upstairs center channel amp) for driving maggie 1.7s. Both amps are less than a year old;a $350 class D (Crown) versus a $499 class A/B (Emotiva).
 
I listened at relatively low level (80 dB) to Bill Evans jazz (Everyone Loves Bill Evans) which I know well, after replacing the Crown with the Emotiva.

The Emotiva A/B amp cast a pleasant veil/glow over the music. Nice, perhaps, for background listening.

I then put the Crown back.

The Crown, by contrast, was far more transparent; it increased detail, such as instrument separation and resolution, and bass articulation especially. It sounded far more 'real', to me (my room, my old ears, etc).

What I don't have is a more expensive class A/B amp to experiment with...maybe I'll order one from an online source that allows returns (there were lots of suggestions as to what brand, in the above mentioned post!).

The search goes on...

 

Interesting as i had bought 4  Crown XLS 2000 for the HT system and ended up only using 3 , i then moved this one over to my Hi-Fi system and did some listening,  after 30 days of  burn in and using Various power ( this amp is very sensitive to such) cords and cables to optimize its sound , it does have good drive , but no where is it an hi-fi amp, i have never heard an amp with worst Timbre , on electronic music it actually sounds pretty good,  fusion Jazz , etc,   10 seconds into any piano  or classical recording and its just plain horrible , it definitely  has issues at the frequency extremes, bass , but no low bass extension , treble but no air and the sound stage narrows so much by comparison it shrinks the sound. 


After fighting with the XLS2000 for a few weeks, my teen daughter cemented the deal, Dad what did you do, it doesn't sound "Live"  anymore...


The XLS 2000 series is definitely not an hi - fidelity amplifier, not one person invited to hear it thought so , it's way too colored, its best quality is in the midrange , where it works well in the HT system , I'm happy with them there, I did have to go back to my A/AB amp for the bass thou..

Regards..





 

[a.wayne]

The Crown XLS 2500 is $599 at their homepage. Where do you get it for $350?

I think you should add that you listened to the combination of amps and speakers. You have found a good match of amps and speakers, at least to your liking. Other speakers can give a different subjective result.

Emotiva's more expensive power amps are very good and highly respected by Swedish audiophiles.

thoughts on XPA-2

[rollo]

That experiment merely reinforces the importance of power, especially for Maggies. It's not even a fair fight -- 150 wpc vs. 440 wpc. Obviously, a much more expensive, high powered, high current amp will make the Crown frown.

    Si Senor. Current as in amps is key to uncolored live Maggie sound or any other planar magnetic design for that matter. Tubed amps will work like big Audio Research but bring plenty money for that. I prefer hybrid class "D" amps personally.


charles

[Davey]

    Si Senor. Current as in amps is key to uncolored live Maggie sound or any other planar magnetic design for that matter. Tubed amps will work like big Audio Research but bring plenty money for that. I prefer hybrid class "D" amps personally.


charles

There isn't any inherent current superiority between a 150wpc and 440wpc amplifier.....assuming the limits of the 150wpc were not being exceeded with the volume setting......and all other things being equal.

The overused "Maggies love current" cliche' is complete nonsense.  All speakers "love" current.....Maggies just require a bit more because of their relative inefficiency.

Dave.

[rollo]

There isn't any inherent current superiority between a 150wpc and 440wpc amplifier.....assuming the limits of the 150wpc were not being exceeded with the volume setting......and all other things being equal.

The overused "Maggies love current" cliche' is complete nonsense.  All speakers "love" current.....Maggies just require a bit more because of their relative inefficiency.

Dave.

   Exactly the require more current due to their inefficiency. The Amps I use have 40 amps available.

charles

[a.wayne]

150watts per channel could be easily exceeded on a Maggie at any reasonable  SPL level , at 84 db nom and at  3 M listening distance  that amp would clip on peaks ..

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I have a pair of Maggie 1.6's.  I use to drive them with a Parasound A21 which is a very good amp at its price point and its spec's are fabulous, low distortion, high current with 60amps, excellent slew rate and dampening with 400wpc at 4ohms.

I replaced it with a Pass Labs X250 amp whose specs are not as good as the A21 except for it being 500wpc at 4ohms. The Pass however is much more dynamic and musical with more air and transparency.  It has much better control control and beats the A21 in every way.

I guess my point is that don't get caught up in spec's or power.  It is all about the design of the amp and how it delivers the power.

[Davey]

How much compression do you think Magnepan transducers exhibit.....relative to conventional drivers?

Dave.

[josh358]

The Crown XLS 2500 is $599 at their homepage. Where do you get it for $350?

I think you should add that you listened to the combination of amps and speakers. You have found a good match of amps and speakers, at least to your liking. Other speakers can give a different subjective result.

Emotiva's more expensive power amps are very good and highly respected by Swedish audiophiles.

The Crowns have been replaced by a new version so were on sale a few days ago, I got two for my woofers after reading about them here. Sorry you didn't see the threads -- I put one up on the Asylum -- but you could check Amazon and Musician's Friend just in case there are still some left.

[josh358]

thoughts on XPA-2

I have one. Great amp for the money and my sense is that most people would be delighted with them, though you can of course do better if you spend significantly more. But it's never possible to predict, because you can put two people in a room and one will love an amp while the other will hate it. Perhaps more to the point, the XPA worked great on my MMG's but they apparently have trouble driving some of the larger Maggies -- this based on a post someone made, which he said it was verified by Emotiva tech support.

I don't know yet how the XPA compares to the 2500 since I haven't tried my Crowns yet, but if the Crowns are run-of-the-mill Class D, I'd restrict them to the bass. Though I've seen several comments so far that say the Crowns aren't good on the bass either.

[a.wayne]

The crown is an enigma, i guess its depends on what is expected of it , if your speakers are a bit closed in i can see someone  getting on with them , it was not for me in the Hi-fi system,,they work well in the HT ,  power per $$ ratio , they cant be beat and yes i do prefer the sound of a class A/AB amp on the bass .


Regards

[Phil A]

I use an XPA-200 in a third system (with a Sherbourn Pre-1) and it is really nice for the money.  The room is a small bedroom (probably 12x15) and has fairly efficient speakers (90db) and I like it for the money.  I have not heard the latest Magnepans (the last ones I heard where the 1.7s and 3.7s) but helped deliver and set-up many pair of 1.6s and some 3.6s (and heard the 20.1s).  I'm not sure I'd like the Emotiva driving them.  For my system it was a good choice.

[Davey]

150watts per channel could be easily exceeded on a Maggie at any reasonable  SPL level , at 84 db nom and at  3 M listening distance  that amp would clip on peaks

I'm not sure how you're calculating that.

Most of the Maggies are spec'd at 86db / 1 meter / 2 watts.

Moving the distance to 3 meters would require 150 watts??  (75 times the power?)

It's probably not quite this much, but let's even assume a -6db SPL drop with distance X2.

Dave.

[a.wayne]

I Think most would be spec'd below ,  83.5db ( 3.6R as per stereophile so for simplicity sakes we will ride with this ) so they would require approx 4 watts For  86 db , so yes on dynamic peaks you would /could easily exceed 150 watts and as you had pointed out before , there is also dynamic compression from the limited excursion and of  course BL losses  due to the peg legged one sided magnet assembly  ...


So yeah they will require some drive to boogie, one can always verify with a scope ...



Regards

[josh358]

I'm not sure how you're calculating that.

Most of the Maggies are spec'd at 86db / 1 meter / 2 watts.

Moving the distance to 3 meters would require 150 watts??  (75 times the power?)

It's probably not quite this much, but let's even assume a -6db SPL drop with distance X2.

Dave.

When I've run the numbers taking into account room gain for a dipole and the 1/R radiation pattern, what I got for my listening position (a bit under 3 meters) was just about what you'd measure anechoically at 1 meter.

The IVa's are spec'd at > 110 dB at the listening position in a 16' x 25' room with an amplifier rated at 200 W into 8 ohms, so presumably 400 W. The fuses will blow at 200 or 300 watts but of course brief transients would be passed and acoustical music has a 10-20 dB peak/average ratio. So if you listen to acoustical music at realistic levels (as most people don't) a practical amplifier is going to clip before the fuses blow. However, as you pointed out, the drivers will start to compress at some point. I gather from Roger's measurements that in the case of the Tympani bass panels compression sets in at 95 dB (actually not that different from the typical dynamic woofer), and the magazine measurements he posted the other day quote maximum woofer output above 40 Hz at 103 dB (not sure what they referenced to -- 1% or 3% harmonic distortion, I imagine, but the article wasn't in English). Satie has measured his IV woofers at much higher SPL's triamped with a 2500 watt pro amp on the bass (the woofers are unfused), particularly when the frames are braced (the Mye stand would do the same thing).

In practice, I used to run my 1-D's sometimes at fuse-blowing levels (ah, to be young and carefree) and they stayed clean. The amp would have been clipping like crazy but the ear is pretty tolerant of peak clipping. At the opposite extreme, the IM in my MMG's became annoying when the average SPL was IIRC in the mid 90's at my listening seat. Subjectively, there was no comparison -- the 1-D's were happy at levels typical of floorstanding dynamics (but not at the levels of pro monitors or a few consumer speakers), while the MMGs started to sound scary at higher levels and I wasn't inclined to push them. (Never did try them with my sub, by the time I'd got it I'd already bought the IVa's so it's been gathering dust.)

[josh358]

I Think most would be spec'd below ,  83.5db ( 3.6R as per stereophile so for simplicity sakes we will ride with this ) so they would require approx 4 watts For  86 db , so yes on dynamic peaks you would /could easily exceed 150 watts and as you had pointed out before , there is also dynamic compression from the limited excursion and of  course BL losses  due to the peg legged one sided magnet assembly  ...


So yeah they will require some drive to boogie, one can always verify with a scope ...



Regards

Here's a table that lists (official) sensitivity by model:

http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/articles/speakers.html

[Davey]

I Think most would be spec'd below ,  83.5db ( 3.6R as per stereophile so for simplicity sakes we will ride with this ) so they would require approx 4 watts For  86 db , so yes on dynamic peaks you would /could easily exceed 150 watts and as you had pointed out before , there is also dynamic compression from the limited excursion and of  course BL losses  due to the peg legged one sided magnet assembly  ...

So yeah they will require some drive to boogie, one can always verify with a scope ...

Regards

All of the current models are spec'd the same as the MMG at 86db.

Yes, I think it would definitely be a good idea to check with a scope.  I've done that numerous times with normal listening.  You might be surprised what you see. 
Folks confuse power amplifier ratings with actual power usage too much.
Also, I assume your 150wpc comment was based on an amplifier that's rated to 150wpc....into 8 ohms?  If not, that would be an important distinction.

Dave.