[BruceSB]

Can anyone outline some of the differences (& similarities) between an Apogee Duetta Signature (or Classic 1.5DS) and a typical electrostatic?
Would be good if you could also comment on ease of positioning also.
Thanks.
Bruce

[BobM]

I own Duetta Sig's and have heard many Maggie's over the years. I will tackle positioning first.

Any dipole speaker or panel will be finicky to set up. Lets face it, there is sound coming out both front and back and room interactions are a big part of their sound. It takes time and finicky setup. Over time you will no doubt continue to play with them until you get a center image that is stable, treble and bass that is to your liking, and a soundstage that is expensive. All panels are capable of this but it is going to take effort. I recommend getting a laser distance finder and using it. Sometimes that 1/4 - 1/2 inch of precision will pay off handsomely.

Maggies sound nice, especially the newer models. Apogees can sound state of the art. Apogees are all pure ribbon which is faster than most any other driver. You just have to worry about the dreaded Apogee buzzzzz, which will happen to any original Apogee over time. That won't be the case if you are looking at a revamped speaker with the new ribbons offered by Graz in Australia.

All speakers need to be driven properly to sound their best, so I don't consider the need for a high current amp a turn off. Hell, if I had horns I would highly recommend a SET amp for them. You need to use what is proper for the speaker.

As with any speaker you also need the proper size speaker for your room. There are big and small models of all planers, so choose appropriately.

IMO - Apogees will blow away any Maggie if set up and driven properly. But getting there can also be half the fun. A Duetta will absolutely have more slam, sound faster, sound more cohesive, and will image better, and can be more transparent. All that is good, but with that state of the art comes the usual issues about quality upstream components and proper setup and room treatment.

[sfdoddsy]

Until recently I owned Duetta Signatures. I've also owned Martin Logan CLS (electrostatic), Magnepan MMG, 10.1, and 1.7 (magnetic planar), as well as other more obscure electrostats and planars and  even dynamic open baffles such as the Linkwitz Orions I had for over ten years.

All were good in some way or another, but I though the Duettas were the best of the bunch.

The Martin Logan CLS is lovely, but lacks weight and dynamics.

The Magnepans are spacious but lack invisibility and dynamics.

The Orions are better again but lack coherence.

The Apogees had all the strengths of the others without their weaknesses. They have a resonance down very low which needs to be either EQed out or crossed out to a sub.

The only real problem is that they are ugly (according to my spouse) and will eventually (according to the interwebs) because of poor design and construction.

They are repairable by a guy in Australia (at the moment) but I was on tenterhooks with mine.

In spite of this I would have kept mine if my partner and new child had allowed it.

They are the best speakers I've hear or owned (I've also had Wilson, Genesis and other expensive audio faves in the house).

[BobRex]

Maggies aren't electrostatic.  What do you consider a "typical" electrostatic?  Stats can be broken into different categories.  First there are the hybrids - Martin Logans, Jensen, Sanders,... - where the stat panels cover some part of the frequency spectrum, while others drivers carry other parts of the range.  Typically this means the bass is dynamic.  Next are the multi-panel stats - Quad 57s, King Sound (if memory serves), and others - where there are bass, mid, and high panels with the associated crossovers.  Finally there are the true full range stats - Sound Labs, Accoustats, newer Quads - where the entire radiating surface is run full range without any crossovers.  Each type has its own strengths and weaknesses.

For the most part, I'd say that the full range stats are more coherent than the Duettas.  They will be as fast, possibly faster, than the Apogees, but don't neccessarily have the bass slam.  You can run full range stats with tubes and the combination can be magical, but be aware that many (most) full range stats are almost purely capacitive at high frequencies, that can cause some problems.  Apogees, by design, present a low low impedance that requires strong solid state to drive them properly.  Most tube amps are out of the question.  So if you beleive that tubes are superior to ss (I'm 70% in that camp), then there is an advantage to the stats.  I'd say that panel size may be a deterrent, you need large panels to develop a good bass signal.

The multi-panels are going to be similar to the Duettas, the presentation may differ, but it's more of a potato - potahto type of difference.  Again, the stats may be driven by tubes, but you will lose some coherence over full range. 

Hybrids are a different animal.  They are an attempt to produce most of the coherence of the full range stats in a smaller, more domestically acceptable, package.  The biggest issues tend to be bass quality and the marriage of the bass to the mids. 

Positioning wise, Bob's advide is spot on.  This is one place where the hybrids have an advantage.  By utilizing dynamic bass you can move the speaker closer to the wall.  You still need some distance (you would still be using a dipole mid and high) from the wall, but not as much as a full range panel. 

[GT Audio Works]

I have never owned Apogees, but am familiar with their house sound., but I have owned a few stats over the years, Quads, Soundlabs,and Acoustats.

The main difference in sound stems from the driving force of each.

Stats use a push pull grid which is powered by the input signal of the amp that is stepped up by a transformer approximately 60 times to create a very even driving force to attract and repel the high voltage static charge on the diaphragm between them, creating sound.
This system is generally acknowledged as the lowest distortion way of generating sound in a speaker diaphragm.
As shown by Peter Walkers demonstration of facing 2 Quad panel towards each other and feeding them a signal out of phase to each other, and measuring the output the speakers as nil, proving their ability to accurately track the input signal with very low distortion characteristics.
While this method produces a wonderful sound, unless the panel has an extremely large radiating area to counteract the limited diaphragm excursion capability, the sound no matter how wonderful, falls short (IMO) in the dynamics and bass department.
This can be ameliorated by the use of cone bass drivers to boost the low end, but purists will tell you it is a compromise at best.
Recent offerings from King Sound I have heard, have to my ears taken a step up in the low to mid bass output for a given panel size of these designs.

Magnetically driven speakers like Apogees which BTW were incorrectly classified as full range ribbons.  Are really planar magnetic panels,(similar in operation to a Maggie) with a ribbon mid and or tweeter.  Leo Spiegel's design was a marvel, but since the panel is driven single ended,from behind the diaphragm by the outer flux field of the magnets and not fully immersed in the field as in a ribbon, and the diaphragm is clamped on all sides of the support structure, it cannot be classified as a ribbon driver.
Classification aside, the design produces wonderful soundstage, transparancy, power and weight, with the proper driving amp.
There is a reason there is such a loyal following all these years later, properly set up, they can sound fantastic. And look like nothing else out there.
I remember hearing the Diva years ago at Sound by Singer, powered by a slew of Krell amps, which at the time, (I forget the model)  to me sounded a bit cold.
But the overall presentation I heard from that setup to me, redefined what a high end speaker was capable of.

To try to answer the crux of your question.

I would preface my answer with the statement, the driving amp with either design is of utmost importance.

My Soundlab A3 speakers just came to life with my OTL (output transformer less) amps.
Their large curved panel created their own issues within the room, but the sound of this system was a beautiful thing.
My Quads and Acoustats also had that magic for me, each in different ways, but all just as great.
Though the Soundlabs due to their size did have the best dynamics and bass of the bunch.
But if I had to pick a desert island system that met many criteria for price, size and performance.
My Quad ESL 63's powered by my Mac 40 watt 6L6 mono's were just downright good on so many levels, as well as being acceptable to my wife on visual criteria. She HATED the SoundLabs !

The magnetic drive of Apogees produce a more dynamic and big sound. But to my ears are not as tonally centered as some stats.
Apogees are a multi way system having a HF driver to counteract the treble beaming issues of larger full range electrostatic systems.
The higer flux density of the design as well as the heavier diaphragm and larger excursion abilities, may have poorer measured distortion.
But I believe the direct drive nature of the design, requiring no step up transformer result in a sound I have come to prefer.

To me....

Stats have a sound that when your in the sweet spot and everything is right, you just marvel at the feelings the system can communicate.

Apogees, do it bigger, deeper ,and  louder and with a style like no other speaker in its time.

I cant say one is better than the other
It all comes down to preferences and compromises.

Greg

[GT Audio Works]

Maggies aren't electrostatic.  What do you consider a "typical" electrostatic?  Stats can be broken into different categories.  First there are the hybrids - Martin Logans, Jensen, Sanders,... - where the stat panels cover some part of the frequency spectrum, while others drivers carry other parts of the range.  Typically this means the bass is dynamic.  Next are the multi-panel stats - Quad 57s, King Sound (if memory serves), and others - where there are bass, mid, and high panels with the associated crossovers.  Finally there are the true full range stats - Sound Labs, Accoustats, newer Quads - where the entire radiating surface is run full range without any crossovers.  Each type has its own strengths and weaknesses.

For the most part, I'd say that the full range stats are more coherent than the Duettas.  They will be as fast, possibly faster, than the Apogees, but don't neccessarily have the bass slam.  You can run full range stats with tubes and the combination can be magical, but be aware that many (most) full range stats are almost purely capacitive at high frequencies, that can cause some problems.  Apogees, by design, present a low low impedance that requires strong solid state to drive them properly.  Most tube amps are out of the question.  So if you beleive that tubes are superior to ss (I'm 70% in that camp), then there is an advantage to the stats.  I'd say that panel size may be a deterrent, you need large panels to develop a good bass signal.

The multi-panels are going to be similar to the Duettas, the presentation may differ, but it's more of a potato - potahto type of difference.  Again, the stats may be driven by tubes, but you will lose some coherence over full range. 

Hybrids are a different animal.  They are an attempt to produce most of the coherence of the full range stats in a smaller, more domestically acceptable, package.  The biggest issues tend to be bass quality and the marriage of the bass to the mids. 

Positioning wise, Bob's advide is spot on.  This is one place where the hybrids have an advantage.  By utilizing dynamic bass you can move the speaker closer to the wall.  You still need some distance (you would still be using a dipole mid and high) from the wall, but not as much as a full range panel.

BobRex make some important points in identifying and sorting out the players in this game.

[BruceSB]

Thanks everyone for your responses so far.
They have been exactly what I was looking for.
Perhaps I should have explained where I am coming from a little more.
I am a long term stat lover.
Started when I first heard quads, the crown stats (which no one ever mentions!) and the martin logan CLS.
I have had my acoustic spectra 22s (run with a quad 66) for many years and am considering an upgrade.
I had been thinking of some new stats and now I am wondering about the new apogee Classic 1.5DS from Graz.
Partly because I too live in Australia and I am guessing I would get great support and partly because the apogees have such a good reputation.
I have heard lots of electrostats, and a fair number of maggies, and my good audiophile friend Tim has maggies which I have had extended listening sessions with.
But, I have never heard an apogee!
So with this background about me I am hoping that people will continue their comments!
Thanks, much appreciated.
Bruce

[Starchild]

Hi Bruce,

I'm a former owner of Apogee Duettas Signatures  I agree with what everyone has said here but would add the following.  I was introduced to the Apogee sound by a friend who had just purchased a pair of Divas; he owned a Krell.  He had just sold his Carver Amazings which I thought were so awesome that I bought a pair Carver ALIII+; a very good but under rated speaker.  At this time I had a pair of Meitner 101 monoblocks which had more than enough power to drive the Carvers or the Apogees.  As life would have it, I became enamoured with tubes and purchased a Margules Audio u280SC tube power amp that I kept for 20 years (and just bought a  new one).  I loved the sound of that tube amp and actually found it to have superior bass to the solid state Meitner amps.  Anyhow, in a moment of irrational exuberance fed by listening to my friends Divas, I sold my Carver ALIII+s and bought a pair of Duetta Sigs.  All the boxes were checked.  The sound was too die for but at low to moderate volumes; higher volumes were not working.   Tubes and ribbons make a magical union but I just couldn't drive the Apogees to acceptable levels.  Eventually, I decided that either the tube amp or the Duettas had to go.  I wasn't willing or able to by a CJ Premier 8 or VTL 450 to drive the Apogees properly nor was I willing or able to buy a solid state amp so I sold them and bought a ribbon hybrid.  I now own a pair of Newform Research 645 v2 that I'm very pleased with.  They're 91 db efficient, very transparent, dynamic and very tube friendly.  The ribbon is very good and many respects I think equals the mid/tweeter ribbon implementation of the Duetta.  Overall the Duetta is probably a better sounding speaker but then you have that conumbrum of what you drive it with.  As one person indicated here previously, the proper tube amp just makes ribbons and stats come alive.  One unique feature of the 645 is that the ribbon is a mono pole which I thinks helps greatly with the integration of of the two drivers as well as room placement.  I've  had these for 10 years and haven't looked back.  I've been told by a friend or two that I never should have sold my Apogees but to me it was about system synergy and a choice had to be made.   So ultimately,  I sold my Duettas because I didn't like the sound of the large arc welder solid state amps  and couldn't afford to purchase a tube amp that could drive them and sound good.  As a tube lover in the market today, I'd take a hard look at several good sounding ribbon hybrids such as the Newforms or Golden Ear Technologies.  Now that I have an efficeint ribbon to mate with my tube amp, I don't listen at high volumes anymore.

I've never owned elctrostats but have lsitened to various hybrid designs from Marin Logan and Acoustat.  Both were very good.  Electrostats have a unqique sound - the shimmer of cymbals are addictive.  I've always found ribbons to have a more powerful sound in the midrange that I enjoyed more.  Its a matter of taste but the bottom line for me is that panels rule!!

In your case, if you've got the electronics to drive 'em then I would drive right on down to Graz's shop and get a pair of Duettas from him.  It's still am amzing good speaker.  Good luck and happy listening!

Mike

[BruceSB]

Just noticed on Graz's Apogee site that there is a new model of this one.
The Classic 1.5DS is gone.
The new model is called the Apogee Duetta Advance 7.
"The Duetta Advance 7 is made to a new level of structural strength way beyond any commercially made planar speaker to date, including all previous production Apogee's past and present. Made from new materials that will not fail in difficult climates, impervious to tropical humidity".
Don't suppose anyone has seen one or heard one?
Thanks.
Bruce

[Jon L]

All were good in some way or another, but I though the Duettas were the best of the bunch.

The Martin Logan CLS is lovely, but lacks weight and dynamics.

The Magnepans are spacious but lack invisibility and dynamics.

The Orions are better again but lack coherence.

The Apogees had all the strengths of the others without their weaknesses. They have a resonance down very low which needs to be either EQed out or crossed out to a sub.

The only real problem is that they are ugly (according to my spouse) and will eventually (according to the interwebs) because of poor design and construction.

This is such a familiar speaker journey many audiophiles make.  Some end up happy eventually, but many never do. 

Just to throw in my 2 cents, while no speaker is perfect, the flat stat panel with high sensitivity and arc-proof stators combined with fast transmission bass of Sanders 10 speaker system should be included in the audition short list.  The 48 dB/octave crossover does help greatly with integration. 

http://www.sanderssoundsystems.com/products/electrostatic-speakers/model-10

[H2OAUDIO]

Hello Bruce,

I really think you should find some one who own the very speakers which you are considering and give them a listen. I think you would make a better decision as whether or not to go with the Apogees.  As for the difference in sound compare to other speakers like Martin Logan, Soundlab and others (and they are all great speakers), but the only thing which I can offer is that the Apogees just sound REAL!!! I am sorry but I am terrible in describing sound. I still have hard time of describing the sonic signature of the Apogees even though I have and still own a few pairs.  Happy listening.

Henry Ho

H2O AUDIO

[Starchild]

Hello Bruce,

I really think you should find some one who own the very speakers which you are considering and give them a listen. I think you would make a better decision as whether or not to go with the Apogees.  As for the difference in sound compare to other speakers like Martin Logan, Soundlab and others (and they are all great speakers), but the only thing which I can offer is that the Apogees just sound REAL!!! I am sorry but I am terrible in describing sound. I still have hard time of describing the sonic signature of the Apogees even though I have and still own a few pairs.  Happy listening.

Henry Ho

H2O AUDIO

Hi Henry,

I seem to recall you from the old Apogee Acoutics User Grouip years ago.  Is that you?

Mike

[H2OAUDIO]

Hello Mike,

It is great to read from you again.  Yes, that was me.

Henry

[Davey]

The new model is called the Apogee Duetta Advance 7.
"The Duetta Advance 7 is made to a new level of structural strength way beyond any commercially made planar speaker to date, including all previous production Apogee's past and present. Made from new materials that will not fail in difficult climates, impervious to tropical humidity".
Don't suppose anyone has seen one or heard one?

Probably Graz is the only one.

All metal construction.  The price of those is rumored to be stratospheric.  (Six figures - plus.)
If you have a yacht anchored in Monte Carlo harbor you might be able to afford a pair. 

Dave.

[jsm71]

Maggies aren't electrostatic.  What do you consider a "typical" electrostatic?  Stats can be broken into different categories.  First there are the hybrids - Martin Logans, Jensen, Sanders,... - where the stat panels cover some part of the frequency spectrum, while others drivers carry other parts of the range.  Typically this means the bass is dynamic.  Next are the multi-panel stats - Quad 57s, King Sound (if memory serves), and others - where there are bass, mid, and high panels with the associated crossovers.  Finally there are the true full range stats - Sound Labs, Accoustats, newer Quads - where the entire radiating surface is run full range without any crossovers.  Each type has its own strengths and weaknesses.

For the most part, I'd say that the full range stats are more coherent than the Duettas.  They will be as fast, possibly faster, than the Apogees, but don't neccessarily have the bass slam.  You can run full range stats with tubes and the combination can be magical, but be aware that many (most) full range stats are almost purely capacitive at high frequencies, that can cause some problems.  Apogees, by design, present a low low impedance that requires strong solid state to drive them properly.  Most tube amps are out of the question.  So if you beleive that tubes are superior to ss (I'm 70% in that camp), then there is an advantage to the stats.  I'd say that panel size may be a deterrent, you need large panels to develop a good bass signal.

The multi-panels are going to be similar to the Duettas, the presentation may differ, but it's more of a potato - potahto type of difference.  Again, the stats may be driven by tubes, but you will lose some coherence over full range. 

Hybrids are a different animal.  They are an attempt to produce most of the coherence of the full range stats in a smaller, more domestically acceptable, package.  The biggest issues tend to be bass quality and the marriage of the bass to the mids. 

Positioning wise, Bob's advide is spot on.  This is one place where the hybrids have an advantage.  By utilizing dynamic bass you can move the speaker closer to the wall.  You still need some distance (you would still be using a dipole mid and high) from the wall, but not as much as a full range panel.

I agree with most of the above generalities except I would say Hybrid limitations with bass quality and coherence is a dated observation.  My JansZen zA2.1s are absolutely as coherent as the Maggie 1.7s I had before them with better, stronger, and deeper reaching bass.  Tube amps also work well with the JansZens.

The Sanders models achieve great bass support with the use of an active crossover in their "system".  This allows the user to dial in what they want. 

The Martin Logans are the model most indicted for poor bass integration but their newest (more expensive) models have erased most of that complaint.  The lower priced models still struggle in this area.

[Hank]

BTW, Acoustats are not hybrids.

[BobRex]

Don't recall anyone saying they were.

[Starchild]

BTW, Acoustats are not hybrids.

I said it and some of them are.  The Acoustat Spectra 1100 come to mind as an example.



Doesn't that look like a hybrid to you?

[Wind Chaser]

I said it and some of them are.  The Acoustat Spectra 1100 come to mind as an example.



Doesn't that look like a hybrid to you?

I had the Model 2 and I remember scratching my head wondering why Acoustat did this?

[BruceSB]

Acoustat must have had a bit of a fad on cone drivers in cabinets at the time.
When I purchased my Spectra 22s there was the option of a separate base cabinet with cone drivers.
Glad I did not get it, since read that they were pretty ordinary!
There is a switch on the Spectra 22 interface to activate the cross over, think it might be 70Hz.
Bruce