[ACHiPo]

I'm really torn between the SOTA and the Oracle. Any thoughts?

Here's a blurb on the Oracle:
http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Tables.html#Oth

ORACLE ALEXANDRIA
The Alexandria is very competitive with, but isn't quite as accomplished as, the Lower Class C models above. It is still an excellent value for the money, especially at its typical used price. It is a Reference and located, for now, within the Entry-Level section. It is a priority to purchase the extra belts and motors for it also.

Further- A reader has informed me that Oracle no longer has parts for this model. I have no other verification of this information. (5/03)

More Recently- These excellent sounding turntables are now prone to failing motors, which the manufacturer can do nothing about. There is a motor from Origin Live that some owners have used as a replacement, but the results have been inconsistent. See "Readers Letters" for more information on this subject.

[neobop]

I'm really torn between the SOTA and the Oracle. Any thoughts?

GB,   Review:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?ranlg&1030157114&&&/Oracle-Audio-Alexandria-Turntable-

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?ranlg&1131752979&&&/Sota-Comet-sIII-S250-arm-Turntable

The Comet has a Jelco 250S (straight).  I don't think the shell is removable.  It might do better with lower cu carts.  There is no fluid damping like the 750.
Convert the CAN price to US $ and you have the list price of the table w/o clamp, cover in '04.   Maybe you could get it cheaper?

I think the Alexandria is better, but it's also older.  AFAIK Oracle is still in business.  The Linn arm is a bit lighter, but I don't know if it's better.  Some say it was made by Jelco.  Other arms that bolt right in include Zeta, Alphason and Ittock.  Don't be afraid to offer less than asking price. 

I don't know what the deal was on the VPI.  I saw TNT platter and alarms went off.  Maybe they have the orig platter and you could experiment.  If it has a great arm.....
neo

 

[GentleBender]

I was leaning toward the Oracle, but will speak with the owner of the VPI before moving forward. Thanks to everyone helping me!

In the meantime I have made progress on the media storage room. I would have taken some embarrassing before pictures, but I'm sure most people can imagine a bunch of junk piled on the floor.  I used this guide from recordstoreday.com to reinforce the shelf. https://www.newrecordday.com/diy-ikea-kallax-record-shelf/ I skipped the wood glue so I can disassemble it if required for a move.

Still more work to do, like pictures and stuff. In the future I can add another bookshelf on the back of the current plus I left space to put another on the wall under the red shelf




. 

[Guy 13]

Hi GentleBender,
thanks for your post.
Interesting it is !
I like the content of your link. 
I am sure IKEA has sold hundred of thousands of those Kallax sheves.
Please keep posting, I sure want to see the completed room.

Guy 13

[SteveFord]

I've been following this thread for a bit and I have a suggestion:
see if you can find an older Well Tempered square motor or Classic for around $1000-1200 and then stick on an Ortofon 2M Black.
They're a little tricky to  set up but I can help you out with that - there's this one grub screw which is always loose which will make the azimuth wander.  Tighten that up and it stays put.
Once the cartridge breaks in I think you'll have a turntable for life.
Just a thought.

[ACHiPo]

GB,   
The Comet has a Jelco 250S (straight).  I don't think the shell is removable.  It might do better with lower cu carts.  There is no fluid damping like the 750.
Convert the CAN price to US $ and you have the list price of the table w/o clamp, cover in '04.   Maybe you could get it cheaper?

I think the Alexandria is better, but it's also older.  AFAIK Oracle is still in business.  The Linn arm is a bit lighter, but I don't know if it's better.  Some say it was made by Jelco.  Other arms that bolt right in include Zeta, Alphason and Ittock.  Don't be afraid to offer less than asking price. 

I don't know what the deal was on the VPI.  I saw TNT platter and alarms went off.  Maybe they have the orig platter and you could experiment.  If it has a great arm.....
neo

 

Neo,
Where's a good place to get educated on things like compliance (CU?), tonearm/cartridge matching, tonearm effective mass, etc.?  I remember reading about that stuff years ago and I never grasped it then even when there were ads and literature everywhere talking about it, and now I don't even see it mentioned when manufacturers or reviewers write about LP playback.

Thanks,
AC

[sunnydaze]

Neo,
Where's a good place to get educated on things like compliance (CU?), tonearm/cartridge matching, tonearm effective mass, etc.?  I remember reading about that stuff years ago and I never grasped it then even when there were ads and literature everywhere talking about it, and now I don't even see it mentioned when manufacturers or reviewers write about LP playback.

Thanks,
AC

Google on the exact words / phrases in your post.   You will find tons of stuff.

[ACHiPo]

Google on the exact words / phrases in your post.   You will find tons of stuff.

Sunny,
I've done that and I'm crawling through the hits.  Just looking for perhaps a primer of sorts.

AC

[sunnydaze]

http://ortofon.com/hifi/support/cartridge-tonearm-resonance-frequency

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/tonearmcartridge.html

http://www.theanalogdept.com/cartridge___arm_matching.htm

[neobop]

Neo,
Where's a good place to get educated on things like compliance (CU?), tonearm/cartridge matching, tonearm effective mass, etc.?  I remember reading about that stuff years ago and I never grasped it then even when there were ads and literature everywhere talking about it, and now I don't even see it mentioned when manufacturers or reviewers write about LP playback.

Thanks,
AC

The best place is on these forums, but you might have to wade through tons of verbiage - thousands of posts by people trying to understand.

The basic concept is this:  Dynamic compliance is a measure of cart springiness and cu (compliance units) is the standardized unit measured at 10Hz.  As cu goes up, so does springiness and VTF goes down.  High cu carts like some ADC/Sonus have cu of 50 and do better in low mass arms.  Some low cu carts like DL103 or Zero have cu of 10 to 13, VTF 2 -4g, and require heavy arms.

You can look at it in terms of resultant low frequency resonance - the resonant frequency of the arm/cart system.  There is usually a large resonant spike in output at low frequency resonance.  The recommended range of this frequency is 8 - 12Hz.   If this resonance goes lower (high cu + high mass), then warps or rumble could be problematic.  If resonance is higher (low cu + low mass), then resonance goes higher and can affect audio band and cause intermodulation distortion. 
Many Japanese mfg. measure cu at 100Hz and cu must be normalized for calc.  Example - AT95 is 6.5cu @100Hz = 15cu @ 10Hz.  150MLX is 10cu @ 100Hz = 18cu @ 10Hz.
Fluid damping of the arm will lower the amplitude of the resonant spike and spread it across a wider frequency band. 
Go to VE cart database tools.  You can plug in numbers to estimate resonance or solve for other parameters. 
neo

[neobop]

Sfox,
I saw a nice looking table for old people:
http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649202788-denon-dp-62l-complete-with-both-arms-and-all-weights/



Looks like a flying saucer landed on the plinth.  Not sure if young people would prefer this:



neo

[ACHiPo]

The best place is on these forums, but you might have to wade through tons of verbiage - thousands of posts by people trying to understand.

The basic concept is this:  Dynamic compliance is a measure of cart springiness and cu (compliance units) is the standardized unit measured at 10Hz.  As cu goes up, so does springiness and VTF goes down.  High cu carts like some ADC/Sonus have cu of 50 and do better in low mass arms.  Some low cu carts like DL103 or Zero have cu of 10 to 13, VTF 2 -4g, and require heavy arms.

You can look at it in terms of resultant low frequency resonance - the resonant frequency of the arm/cart system.  There is usually a large resonant spike in output at low frequency resonance.  The recommended range of this frequency is 8 - 12Hz.   If this resonance goes lower (high cu + high mass), then warps or rumble could be problematic.  If resonance is higher (low cu + low mass), then resonance goes higher and can affect audio band and cause intermodulation distortion. 
Many Japanese mfg. measure cu at 100Hz and cu must be normalized for calc.  Example - AT95 is 6.5cu @100Hz = 15cu @ 10Hz.  150MLX is 10cu @ 100Hz = 18cu @ 10Hz.
Fluid damping of the arm will lower the amplitude of the resonant spike and spread it across a wider frequency band. 
Go to VE cart database tools.  You can plug in numbers to estimate resonance or solve for other parameters. 
neo

Great explanation!  Thanks!

The relationship between tracking force and compliance makes sense.  Damping would seem to increase the effective mass/MOI of the tonearm. 

Let me test my understanding:  In the case of my WTT arm, which seems pretty low mass, mounting a low compliance cartridge like a Zero could tend to launch the arm and bounce the styus (IM distortion?), but damping would seem to be able to overcome that tendency, basically increasing the effective mass and moment of inertia of the tonearm?

Thanks again!
AC

[ACHiPo]

Sfox,
I saw a nice looking table for old people:
http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649202788-denon-dp-62l-complete-with-both-arms-and-all-weights/



Looks like a flying saucer landed on the plinth.  Not sure if young people would prefer this:



neo

 

[neobop]

Great explanation!  Thanks!

The relationship between tracking force and compliance makes sense.  Damping would seem to increase the effective mass/MOI of the tonearm. 

Let me test my understanding:  In the case of my WTT arm, which seems pretty low mass, mounting a low compliance cartridge like a Zero could tend to launch the arm and bounce the styus (IM distortion?), but damping would seem to be able to overcome that tendency, basically increasing the effective mass and moment of inertia of the tonearm?

Thanks again!
AC

No.  Damping lessen the amplitude of resonance, but no significant increase in eff mass.  MOI is essentially unchanged, it's the consequences which are mitigated.  Using a cart like zero on a low mass arm could insure intermodulation in the audio band.  However, that might be preferred by an individual, reinforcing bass and mid bass. 

If you got a Koetsu or other low cu cart, you would optimize SQ with a high quality high mass arm.  No getting around that.  Usually, a low mass arm does not have the rigidity to control the cart, and lack of mass makes it unable to perform its function properly.  That is, to be a stable platform for the cart as the arm is dragged around (by the cart) above the record. 
Damping seems to work best in the other direction - with a high cu cart on a heavy arm.  That's why guys can use relatively high cu carts on a damped high mass arm.  Although too much damping effects transient response.
neo

[neobop]

AC,
Here's another interesting table I saw the other day:
http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649200240-luxman-pd-441-with-micro-seiki-ma-505-mkii-tonearm-fanatstic-sounding-tt/

This is a hot set up.  I just bought a few things (including a new arm) or I'd buy it myself. 
http://www.vinylengine.com/library/luxman/pd-441.shtml

With your Lyra or Zero, bet this would embarrass a VPI Prime. 
neo

[ACHiPo]

AC,
Here's another interesting table I saw the other day:
http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649200240-luxman-pd-441-with-micro-seiki-ma-505-mkii-tonearm-fanatstic-sounding-tt/

This is a hot set up.  I just bought a few things (including a new arm) or I'd buy it myself. 
http://www.vinylengine.com/library/luxman/pd-441.shtml

With your Lyra or Zero, bet this would embarrass a VPI Prime. 
neo

Neo,
This looks really interesting.

How do you think this would compare to my WTT?

I assume I'd want to re-cap it?  Anything else I'd need to do to prevent it from becoming a boat anchor?

I've contacted the seller. 

AC

[neobop]

Neo,
This looks really interesting.

How do you think this would compare to my WTT?

I assume I'd want to re-cap it?  Anything else I'd need to do to prevent it from becoming a boat anchor?

I've contacted the seller. 

AC

One thing I want to get clear.  This is around 35 yrs old and I can't be responsible for condition of this example or parts availability.  That said, I get the feeling from this ad, w/o talking to the seller, that this is a no BS deal - as advertised.  Electronic parts haven't changed and newer chips could probably be substituted if one fails.  I don't have specific knowledge of the chips, but modern substitution has proven feasible with other vintage quartz locked DD's.
I suggest you find a service manual if you buy this.  VE doesn't have it.  Just do a search.

This is a sought after arm w/VTA OTF and spring loaded VTF.  Using a spring means VTF won't vary with warps.  With a static balanced arm, as the cart accelerates on the upside of a warp, VTF is significantly reduced.  Benefit - Most records aren't 100% flat and for those really bad ones chance of mistracking is reduced dramatically, and for milder warps chance of minor mistracking (momentary) is nil, at least due to warp.  It used to be popular with such arms to use 50% spring and 50% balance to apply VTF.  Can't say why exactly.
This is a med/heavy arm and eff mass will depend on the headshell.  Stock alignment is near Stevenson.  Depending on mounting distance used, you'll probably be near the end of the headshell slots for one of the Loefgren alignments.  I've elongated the slots a couple of mm for my Sony PUA-7 arm with similar alignment. 
This arm (MKII) is worth around $800 or so.

My experience is with the original WT.  You have a Reference w/a little more substantial looking arm?  When I set up the WT ('88?) for the first time, we were astounded by the SQ, goofy alignment and all.  I must have gone through 30 different carts to find the right stylus to screw distance for alignment.  Can't say I remember what that was except relatively high cu.  I wouldn't venture into low cu carts with that arm - waste of time.  Even though the Reference arm looks heavier, I suspect it's inappropriate for the Zero, and the Lyra would be better with the 505. 
If I remember correctly, at one point you referenced someone advocating arm/cart resonance close to 20Hz.  Oh my, how we like our colorations!!   

Luxman made some nice tables but flies under the radar today.  I think that listing has been there for awhile (last page) and you might be able to get it a little cheaper or free shipping, due to age if nothing else.   I have some tables of similar age w/original caps and they work fine.  You have to use them.  Caps don't automatically go bad after x many years.  If it's been sitting unused, the caps have to re-form and that takes some time.  With use, you can clean the speed pots and watch non quartz servos go from erratic to practically locked-on.  Although it's a good idea to replace 35 yr old electrolytics, try it out first and don't worry about it until you're feeling insecure. 
http://www.thevintageknob.org/luxman-PD444.html
Good luck if you get it,
neo
 

[ACHiPo]

Neo,
Thanks again for the education!  You have no culpability here, and I agree with your sense of the seller and listing.  I'm going to give him a call later today to find out more.

I've done quite a bit of research in the last 12 hours on the deck and arm.  The Micro Seiki 505 mk II arm seems to be comparable in reputation to a Jelco 750 (or at least a 250), with one report of it outperforming an SME V.  The Luxman 441 also has a great reputation, probably more so in Japan and Asia than the US just based on the Asian hits I get.  I found the manual on VE.

Ever since having my Dual direct drive die ~4 years after purchase and not being able to find anyone to fix it (and that was back in the 80s when there were actual turntable repair shops!) I've been a bit gun shy on the electronics (I've made it through several pages of the Agon vintage direct drive turntables thread and they inspire some confidence that at least old decks may be able to be resuscitated).  Contrast that with nearly 20 years of trouble free operation with my WTT, funky tonearm and all, and I lean toward the simplicity of belt drive unsuspended turntables.

AC

[ACHiPo]

I was leaning toward the Oracle, but will speak with the owner of the VPI before moving forward. Thanks to everyone helping me!

In the meantime I have made progress on the media storage room. I would have taken some embarrassing before pictures, but I'm sure most people can imagine a bunch of junk piled on the floor.  I used this guide from recordstoreday.com to reinforce the shelf. https://www.newrecordday.com/diy-ikea-kallax-record-shelf/ I skipped the wood glue so I can disassemble it if required for a move.

GB,
Looks like you're making good progress on your new turntable's home!

AC

[neobop]

Neo,
I've done quite a bit of research in the last 12 hours on the deck and arm.  The Micro Seiki 505 mk II arm seems to be comparable in reputation to a Jelco 750 (or at least a 250), with one report of it outperforming an SME V.  The Luxman 441 also has a great reputation, probably more so in Japan and Asia than the US just based on the Asian hits I get.  I found the manual on VE.

Ever since having my Dual direct drive die ~4 years after purchase and not being able to find anyone to fix it (and that was back in the 80s when there were actual turntable repair shops!) I've been a bit gun shy on the electronics (I've made it through several pages of the Agon vintage direct drive turntables thread and they inspire some confidence that at least old decks may be able to be resuscitated).  Contrast that with nearly 20 years of trouble free operation with my WTT, funky tonearm and all, and I lean toward the simplicity of belt drive unsuspended turntables.
AC

"The Micro Seiki 505 mk II arm seems to be comparable in reputation to a Jelco 750 (or at least a 250), with one report of it outperforming an SME V."
On the face of it that seems like a bizarre statement.  Perhaps my description of the sound of the V gave you an erroneous impression.  These things are used in combination and in some ways maybe the V is too good to sound like live music with associated equipment.  The arm is remarkable in lack of coloration and dynamics, but it can sound sort of dead as opposed to live.  You should judge this for yourself, and for those who favor it, it's worth well over $5K.  Online it costs over $7K.   
http://hifiheaven.net/shop/Oracle-Audio-SME-V-Reference-Tonearm?language=en&currency=USD&gclid=CMHXubWe3sgCFcERHwodEmwBcQ

The Jelco arms are a great value, no doubt.  I think the 505 is in another class.  I don't have numbers but I think bearing friction, rigidity, resolution, are all better, not to mention stable VTA OTF.  If it were being made today it would sell for 3 or 4 x the price of a 750. 

I prefer a good DD, but I'm not trying to talk you into it.  When I sold my LP12 I got a Goldmund/Zeta DD and I had to mod it a bit.  The belt drivers (HW19, Delphi, Gyro) weren't in the running.  But that's me.  You have to do what's right for you.   I suspect your WT sounds pretty good.  I think you could add another arm for the Zero or get another belt drive w/more substantial arm for both carts and be happy.
Regards,
neo