[ACHiPo]

Evan,
It seems to me either option you're considering is a project.   You must really want that SME ?  You're willing to spend an additional $400 and probably a motor ($?).  Who does the work VPI ?  Have a speed controller?  If not you're up to an additional minimum $1.3K  ?? 
Tell you the truth, I've only heard the SME V in a couple of set-ups where I liked it.   You never know till you try, but the deal isn't looking so good anymore.  I think you need to figure out your objective, mono or new top dog player. 

I think the answer lies in your desire to upgrade, in which case I don't know if the MKIV is an upgrade.  Seriously, maybe it could be, but you could also buy the arm by itself. 

The Sunnydaze approach makes sense if you measure spindle to mounting hole accurately.  You wouldn't need that elevation and it could be simpler.  You could get a Jelco 750L 12", or any number of appropriate used arms.  There's a JVC UA7082 12" on epay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321881995735?rmvSB=true
This one is a killer.  With a Zero you'd probably need pampers. 

You ever drool over something and it turned out to be not only a PIA, but a disappointment?   There will always be used SME's, but what's the value of a used HW19 upgraded to a MKIV ?
neo

Neo,
Not sure why I'm still considering the VPI.  Part of it is that I've always kinda wanted a VPI (like our original poster GentleBender), and an SME V, and the price is such that I could come out whole on just the arm.

A couple of the older 'tables you linked seem really expensive, but then I lost touch of analog from the mid-80s to the late 90s so maybe I don't appreciate them.  I've also toyed with getting a Lenco or an Empire which could be a good choice for a decent mono cartridge.  I came across a Fat Boy, which would be an upgrade to my WTT for stereo, but now I'm just babbling.

[sunnydaze]

I also like the idea of a longer (12") tonearm, which could work if I adopted your outrigger approach.

Evan

Unless you prefer a 12, it's not required as  I'm pretty sure shorter arms can be successfully mounted alongside your WTT.

I have a Townshend Rock 3.  Like your WT, it has a traditional plinth and its overall dimensions seem quite similar.







Note how close the platter is to left plinth edge, just like yours.   This is where I set up my platform.  Outboard to the Rock I've been able to mount an Origin Live Encounter,  Hadcock 242, and Jelco 750E.   The mount distances are 223mm, 226mm, and 240mm respectively.   The Jelco is the only true 10 incher, the other two are 'tweeners.

In the 2nd pic the ruler shows that maybe even a typical 9 incher (212mm mount distance) is possible?

Now, if you wanna mount in the more traditional locations (ie, the corners), then maybe a 12" is required as the plinth precludes getting the platform close enough for shorter arms.

To account for varying platter heights, I achieve the correct arm platform height by simply adding / subtracting wooden blocks and using different length aluminum spacers (under the round arm mounting disk).

[ACHiPo]

Unless you prefer a 12, it's not required as  I'm pretty sure shorter arms can be successfully mounted alongside your WTT.

I have a Townshend Rock 3.  Like your WT, it has a traditional plinth and its overall dimensions seem quite similar.







Note how close the platter is to left plinth edge, just like yours.   This is where I set up my platform.  Outboard to the Rock I've been able to mount an Origin Live Encounter,  Hadcock 242, and Jelco 750E.   The mount distances are 223mm, 226mm, and 240mm respectively.   The Jelco is the only true 10 incher, the other two are 'tweeners.

In the 2nd pic the ruler shows that maybe even a typical 9 incher (212mm mount distance) is possible?

Now, if you wanna mount in the more traditional locations (ie, the corners), then maybe a 12" is required as the plinth precludes getting the platform close enough for shorter arms.

To account for varying platter heights, I achieve the correct arm platform height by simply adding / subtracting wooden blocks and using different length aluminum spacers (under the round arm mounting disk).

The WT turntable plinth is about 5" left of the platter (WTT Reference has the motor surrounded by plinth), but the back of the plinth could probably handle a 10" and maybe a 9".

By the way the Rock is on my list of tables I'd love to get.  After 15 years with my WTT Reference, I really appreciate what damping can do, although I suspect that it's causing my VTF to be less accurate/precise than it should be for best operation of the Kleos.

[sunnydaze]

The Rock is superb.   Much unheralded and unappreciated in America.   But the enlightened Europeans know the deal .   I'm saving for a Rock 7.

[sunnydaze]

Oh, and sorry about my confusion on WT plinth / platter relationship.   Was thinking of a different  model.

[neobop]

Neo,
Not sure why I'm still considering the VPI.  Part of it is that I've always kinda wanted a VPI (like our original poster GentleBender), and an SME V, and the price is such that I could come out whole on just the arm.

A couple of the older 'tables you linked seem really expensive, but then I lost touch of analog from the mid-80s to the late 90s so maybe I don't appreciate them.  I've also toyed with getting a Lenco or an Empire which could be a good choice for a decent mono cartridge.  I came across a Fat Boy, which would be an upgrade to my WTT for stereo, but now I'm just babbling.

IMO the only reason belt drive was touted in the '80s was because that's all small companies could build.  They didn't have the technology to make DD.  Big Japanese companies stopped further high end table production after the introduction of CD.
This is a whole other discussion and it's not to say belt drive isn't as good, but IMO you have to go to a much higher price class.

The Kenwood 990 I linked to is an excellent table.  It has a med/heavy S arm, standard headshell, Brushless/slotless motor, end of record lift, and a chassis like this:
http://www.thevintageknob.org/kenwood-KP-1100.html
The 990 was a Canadian model like the Japanese 9010.  I'm using a 770d right now for mono.  It's like the 990 except straight arm w/o the chassis.  The arm eff mass is about 17.5g. 

The Yamaha GT2000 really was a dream table for many audio droolers. You could order it in different configurations:
http://www.thevintageknob.org/yamaha-GT-2000.html

My suggestion to you is to start breaking it down to separate arms and tables.   Go the Sunnydaze route and you'll be able to mix and match.  It's much easier to attain your goals and eventually replace the WT.  If you want a dedicated mono table the 990 is a better table than the HW19, especially with a low cu cart.  That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

You can get an excellent arm for mono for a lot less than what you've been considering:
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649225775-pioneer-exclusive-tonearm-pa70-trio-x3/
That's about 12".  The JVC arm is also excellent.  Both more than a little better (I think) than 750L.
neo

[ACHiPo]

Neo,
Thanks!  I'm going to pass on the VPI.  I've now got lots of new stuff to research and obsess about!

AC

[GentleBender]

Neo,

What would you recommend for someone that wants a simple, yet refined turntable? I want a table that requires little maintenance and tinkering to sound good. I am afraid of DD due to aging electronics that I would be unable to repair. I play stereo and hope not to fall too far into this audio hobby. So many options! I like that the VPI has a separate motor so that you can replace it if problems arise, but I am open to suggestions.

Bottom line is that I enjoy listening to the music and only the occasional tinkering/upgrade cartridge.

[sfox7076]

How about this: http://www.digitaltrends.com/music/iconic-brand-technics-will-produce-turntables-once-again/

If you want belt driven, VPI is hard to beat.  Maybe an old, well maintained Thorens.

[ACHiPo]

Neo,

What would you recommend for someone that wants a simple, yet refined turntable? I want a table that requires little maintenance and tinkering to sound good. I am afraid of DD due to aging electronics that I would be unable to repair. I play stereo and hope not to fall too far into this audio hobby. So many options! I like that the VPI has a separate motor so that you can replace it if problems arise, but I am open to suggestions.

Bottom line is that I enjoy listening to the music and only the occasional tinkering/upgrade cartridge.

GB,
I share your concern about aging electronics, but Neo's links have me investigating.  I continue to be happy with my Well Tempered Reference turntable.  It has been totally trouble free in the nearly 20 years I've owned it, and it was probably 10 years old when I bought it.  It's easy to set up and sounds great to my ears.

AC

[sfox7076]

If you look old, Denon tables are awesome.

[ACHiPo]

If you look old, Denon tables are awesome.

Well I certainly look older than I used to!  The Denon 'tables seem to have quite a following (and price to match).

[neobop]

Neo,

What would you recommend for someone that wants a simple, yet refined turntable? I want a table that requires little maintenance and tinkering to sound good. I am afraid of DD due to aging electronics that I would be unable to repair. I play stereo and hope not to fall too far into this audio hobby. So many options! I like that the VPI has a separate motor so that you can replace it if problems arise, but I am open to suggestions.

Bottom line is that I enjoy listening to the music and only the occasional tinkering/upgrade cartridge.

Obviously, not everyone shares my opinion about DD or possibly idlers.  On a vintage DD table it's usually recommended to replace all the old electrolytic caps, then you're usually good to go.  If you don't DIY or have a good tech.....  All the parts can be replaced with only a few exceptions, but figuring it out might be a PIA.

I think the HW19 w/speed controller is a good value and good performer.  I'm suspicious of one with the TNT platter, but some people like the TNT.  I like the HW19 black acrylic platter.  Check for wobble.

I don't care for old Sota Sapphires - speed is unlistenable for me.  Then you start getting into pricier decks.  Basis makes some excellent tables, but they're more money.  The venerable LP12 post Valhalla is a great classic.   Other sprung tables like Gyrodeck or Delphi are capable performers if you can tune the  suspension.   

I'm not that familiar with newer brands, but this looks like a good deal:
https://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-clearaudio-concept-with-benz-ace-s-and-phonomena-ii-2015-10-11-analog-08550-princeton-juncti-nj--2

Maybe this?
https://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-funk-firm-flamenca-w-f6-arm-new-maroon-finish-2015-10-19-analog-07677-woodcliff-lake-nj

https://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-gem-dandy-polytable-turntable-2015-10-18-analog-38018-cordova-tn

https://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-origin-live-aurora-mk3-bargain-price-for-terrific-performance-2015-10-20-analog-92010-carlsbad-ca
???

This is a nice table and it would be easy to replace the arm if desired:
http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649228347-oracle-alexandria-turntable-with-linn-basik-lv-x-tonearm-near-mint/

http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649227407-clearaudio-emotion-black-with-cmb-see-photo/

The Canadian dollar is worth about 0.77 US.  That should more than pay for shipping. 

http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649196700-linn-sondek-lp-12-with-basik-lv-x-tonearm-and-new-goldring-102-2gx-cartridge-installed/

http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649225354-sota-comet-turntable/
??

neo

[GentleBender]

Lots of homework now! Thanks for spending the time to assist me. I have to work extra fast now to beat ACHipo. 

[ACHiPo]

Lots of homework now! Thanks for spending the time to assist me. I have to work extra fast now to beat ACHipo. 

GB,
No need to strain yourself--I'm in no hurry

AC

[Rocket]

Hi Gentlebender,

I'm a bit confused I thought you already had bought the VPI turntable?  My advice keep it nice and simple and buy a turntable that is relatively new and you don't have to spend a lot of money on.  I've spent a bundle on a Goldnote Piccolo turntable which had numerous problems and appears to be quite unreliable ie. currently on my third motor in less than 10 years (it doesn't get much use either).

VPI is a USA brand so lots of parts and warranty support if you decide to go down this road.

Cheers Rod

[GentleBender]

GB,
No need to strain yourself--I'm in no hurry

AC

I was only kidding. There are more than enough turntables to go around. 

[GentleBender]

Hi Gentlebender,

I'm a bit confused I thought you already had bought the VPI turntable?  My advice keep it nice and simple and buy a turntable that is relatively new and you don't have to spend a lot of money on.  I've spent a bundle on a Goldnote Piccolo turntable which had numerous problems and appears to be quite unreliable ie. currently on my third motor in less than 10 years (it doesn't get much use either).

VPI is a USA brand so lots of parts and warranty support if you decide to go down this road.

Cheers Rod

It is an ongoing thing. I need to call them again, but thanks for the info on the Goldnote.

[GentleBender]

I'm really torn between the SOTA and the Oracle. Any thoughts?

[ACHiPo]

I'm really torn between the SOTA and the Oracle. Any thoughts?

Here's a review of the Comet.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/sotacomet.htm