[milosz]

I have done a blind A/B test of electrolytic vs. film cap for a series output coupling cap in my Bottlehead Crack / Speedball headphone amp.  Using Sennheiser HD800 and Beyer DT880 'phones, I could definitely hear a difference in my A/B switch, which I had wired by someone else so I wouldn't know which position was electrolytic and which was film.

Electrolytic was a 100 uF Elna Nichicon Muse "audio grade" polar electrolytic (100 v)  and film was a Dayton 100 uF film cap.

One position of the switch I heard what sounded like some treble distortion, or like little bursts of noise that accompanied the treble.  The other position I did not hear this.  It was *NOT* a subtle difference- it was clearly audible. As it  turned out the cleaner sounding switch position had the film caps in the circuit.

Does this test translate to crossover caps?  I suspect it might, for series caps in the high-pass. I now always use a film cap for any series cap in an audio application, including high-pass speaker filters.

Is a $400 film cap better than a $25 one?  That I cannot say.  I suspect the difference between different brands of film caps is smaller than the difference between a polar electrolytic and a film cap.

THAT SAID, if I were building a crossover, I would just use good quality film caps (but not super-costly ones) and avoid electrolytics. If I had a speaker with an existing crossover, I might try replacing any electrolytics with film caps but I'd be sure to do before and after measurements with Omnimic or similar.

(Actually I am not a fan of passive crossovers.  I prefer active crossovers- my main speakers use a DEQX, and I've also fooled around with Behringer DCX2496's and MiniDSP modules. But that's just me.))

[DaveC113]

Actually, lower end MKP type caps like Solen are horrible, but 100 uF is huge for a film cap and can get very expensive. Maybe Rick will comment on bypass caps instead of using huge/expensive film caps for such situations?

[will mac]

Agree, Solen caps sound very 'grainy'. I used the base Evo caps (large value) in my last build and they performed very well

[mikeeastman]

All I know is I replaced my Sonicaps  in my cross-overs with Jupiter copper foil caps and it took what I considered were great sounding speaker to a whole other level.

[Kishore]

What I will say is probably heresy  but I had Xover of 1 speaker replaced with premium parts (esp caps).. and I could not make any difference between left and right speaker -maybe it was not the right comparison.. but I could not make jack of a difference . I lost my pizza/drinks bet with my local buddy.  Moment I had to 'strain' or concentrate to hear difference then it was a lost cause- not perceptible enough for me.   Maybe values/variance is more critical?

Maybe I am not an audiophool 

regards,
Kishore

[milosz]

Unless you do a double-blind A/B test, there is no way to separate real difference in sound perception from placebo effect.

Opinions are not the same thing as facts.

[Early B.]

Unless you do a double-blind A/B test, there is no way to separate real difference in sound perception from placebo effect.

Opinions are not the same thing as facts.

Audio is highly subjective, so opinions are all we've got. Double blind A/B tests are useless here.


Kishore - you also have to consider the entire chain. For instance, if the components consisted of mid-fi gear with cheap cables, then placing premium crossover parts in a speaker will be of little to no benefit. 

[Rick Craig]

Actually, lower end MKP type caps like Solen are horrible, but 100 uF is huge for a film cap and can get very expensive. Maybe Rick will comment on bypass caps instead of using huge/expensive film caps for such situations?

I don't use bypass caps.

[Kishore]

Audio is highly subjective, so opinions are all we've got. Double blind A/B tests are useless here.

I also tested blind on 1 speaker- I could not make out. It is subjective- it is fine I wanted to provide my limited subjective and contrarian POV since many opinions stated including mine are not qualified by measurements but perception  . Who knows I will change my opinion later on this once I perceive subjectively on improvements!

Kishore - you also have to consider the entire chain. For instance, if the components consisted of mid-fi gear with cheap cables, then placing premium crossover parts in a speaker will be of little to no benefit.

I agree with you-during my comparison my set-up was Furman+Uberbuss/Purepower +, TAP-X, NC1200 Monos, Sooloos/Oppo, Wywires cables, Pi audio's NW cable and Abbey speakers. Everything can be improved..

Regards,
Kishore

[milosz]

>. Double blind A/B tests are useless here. <<

And why is that? Because they show that the "differences" in some components that certain people claim to hear actually don't exist?

I wouldn't fly in an airplane or take drugs that were totally designed by guesswork and opinion. Audio is not immune from the laws of reality.

If  difference in sound between two parts is real, then at least one listener will be able to identify it with statistical reliability in a double blind listening test.  How could this NOT be true?

Are you saying that if you know you are listening to $5000 speaker wire it sounds different than if you didn't know that?

I certainly agree that measurements do not tell the whole story about how a system sounds. Measurements have their place, especially during the design process. But two different speaker designs that measure nearly identically will certainly sound differently.  And so on. But double-blind testing is the basis of the experimental method, which is well proven and used in all science and engineering.  Double-blind A/B tests are based on listening, and not measurement, after all.

If you are claiming that for some reason audio is exempt from the scientific method, I'd like to hear your reasoning for that. If that's true, you'll be in line for a Nobel Prize.

Certainly, if you like the way something sounds, there's no need for testing or measurement to validate your enjoyment of it.  But to say "capacitor X is garbage" requires more to back it up than just "because I say so."

[Jeff K]

When I was ordering my Galenas, Rick asked if I wanted the standard or deluxe cross-over parts. He was of the opinion that there would not be an audible difference.

I went with deluxe, just because.

[milosz]

I'll use Clarity caps if I can. Maybe they sound a little better than Solen or Dayton caps, maybe they don't,  I just do not know.  But they do not cost a whole lot more than the lower-cost caps, and until I have definitive information as to whether they sound better or not, I'll err on the side of caution and spend the extra $40 (or so) and get the Clarity caps.  Why not, I figure.

I wouldn't spend $600 EACH  for Dueland cast-copper or etc.,  but I will spend forty  bucks to buy a supposedly better brand than the "cheapies."   Whether or not the Clarity caps  really do sound better, certainly there is an emotional satisfaction in using a cap that many consider "better."

Some day I will have to devise an A/B/X test for crossover caps so I can KNOW if they sound better or not.

Rick may be right. As long as they are film caps, they might sound all pretty much the same.

[jtwrace]

Actually, lower end MKP type caps like Solen are horrible, but 100 uF is huge for a film cap and can get very expensive. Maybe Rick will comment on bypass caps instead of using huge/expensive film caps for such situations?

I'm listening to "horrible" Solen caps right now - f'n amazing sound!  Like anything, it's about the design and execution. 

[DaveC113]

I'm listening to "horrible" Solen caps right now - f'n amazing sound!  Like anything, it's about the design and execution.

I think a step up to something like Clarity ESA makes a huge improvement without breaking the bank, Jupiter copper foil are better yet but much more cash. I think you'd find the ESA caps will remove a lot of grain and you'll get a clearer, more dynamic sound vs the Solens. Jupiters will have better detail and more realistic, richer/warmer tone vs the ESAs. Just my $.02....   

[DaveC113]

I'll use Clarity caps if I can. Maybe they sound a little better than Solen or Dayton caps, maybe they don't,  I just do not know.  But they do not cost a whole lot more than the lower-cost caps, and until I have definitive information as to whether they sound better or not, I'll err on the side of caution and spend the extra $40 (or so) and get the Clarity caps.  Why not, I figure.

I wouldn't spend $600 EACH  for Dueland cast-copper or etc.,  but I will spend forty  bucks to buy a supposedly better brand than the "cheapies."   Whether or not the Clarity caps  really do sound better, certainly there is an emotional satisfaction in using a cap that many consider "better."

Some day I will have to devise an A/B/X test for crossover caps so I can KNOW if they sound better or not.

Rick may be right. As long as they are film caps, they might sound all pretty much the same.

I think you're on the right track and will get the best value using Clarity ESA caps. I've done one xo with them and it transformed the speaker, AMT RM3s with the Heil tweeter. The stock xo was old so I can't attribute it all to anything specific but the results were far better than expected. 

[jtwrace]

I think you're on the right track and will get the best value using Clarity ESA caps. I've done one xo with them and it transformed the speaker, AMT RM3s with the Heil tweeter. The stock xo was old so I can't attribute it all to anything specific but the results were far better than expected.

Did you happen to measure the complete assembled crossover before & after?  Without going into specifics, lets just say I used the stock and sold the very expensive parts.   

[milosz]

The Clarity caps I used were in a design from Rick at Selah.  Nope, didn't measure the whole shebang.  Did measure the individual parts to verify they were what they said they were.

I am building a biamp 2-way with a ribbon tweeter right now, there is no passive crossover. but there is a cap in series with the ribbon to prevent tweeter amp thumps from trashing the ribbon diaphragm.  That cap is a clarity cap.  The simple RC highpass that is formed by the tweeters impedance and the capacitor is a kind of crossover, it is roughly 800 Hz.  Tweeter is crossed over at 1800, 48 dB/octave Woofer is Satori, ribbon is from Rick at Selah, this is essentially an active Anniversario.  Waiting for the baffles to come back from MDF CNC guy who cut the holes and recesses to flush mount the drivers.

[Early B.]

Audio is not immune from the laws of reality.

Of course it is! Being an audiophile defies all manner of logic. It's totally unrealistic, for instance, to spend $1,000 on a power cord. No sane person would do such a thing. 

And it's even crazier to advocate for "scientific" listening tests to any member of this wacky group. 

[Kishore]

I think it was posted here on AC- if not check out McGurk effect and your hearing differences HERE  

I trust my experience alone For me changing Xover parts experiment was a revelation- connection and values are more important IMHO (Xover design is same anyway).  I have bunch of liberty pcocc speaker cables- will connect and see if it makes a difference over Wywires and better one stays- will do it next month. Like many of you I bought premium cables/ICs just because.. but when I have the time I will remove that rationale out 

Regards,
Kishore

[DaveC113]

It's been proven sighted tests are unreliable, but I've had the opposite results of my bias occur often enough and I've done blind testing with others enough to not simply reject a sighted subjective opinion, especially if it lines up with lots of other opinions. In science it's called an untested hypothesis.