LIO: tuberolling

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dusk_

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LIO: tuberolling
« on: 15 Apr 2015, 07:48 am »
First off, I don't even have my LIO yet!  It gets here in 3-4 weeks.

I wanted to start this thread to talk about different tubes to help me better understand their sound sigs, and how they sound inside the LIO.  Vinnie recommends 100 hours of burn in with the stock JJ tubes to get a reference point before tube rolling.  Good luck with that. :)

For starters: I picked up a pair of CV2492 Mullard's off eBay and was wondering if anyone had any experience with these? I read they are very fat, and have tons of bass, bring out the mids in a very seductive way, and kinda tame the highs a little.  But that was from a Sig15 review.

I'd like to keep this thread going for anyone who wants to throw in their own experience with tubes, to better help me and everyone else out on ones they should try.. and good places to pick up a set.

I'll also write up my thoughts on the JJ's and then after ~100 hours on the Mullard's and do my very best to explain the differences I hear.

Anyway, getting excited!

Vinnie R.

Re: LIO: tuberolling
« Reply #1 on: 15 Apr 2015, 03:42 pm »
Hi dusk,

Welcome to the Vinnie Rossi forum!

Quote
For starters: I picked up a pair of CV2492 Mullard's off eBay and was wondering if anyone had any experience with these? I read they are very fat, and have tons of bass, bring out the mids in a very seductive way, and kinda tame the highs a little.  But that was from a Sig15 review.

This also holds true with the LIO - they have a fatter, richer, sweeter sound.

Similar are the MiniWatt Dario E188CC (green label), but the Dario is a little more detailed.

If you want to step away a notch or two from fatter/richer (but still retain awesome mids), the Telefunken E88CC
that Upscale Audio sells are probably a good choice.

Quote
Vinnie recommends 100 hours of burn in with the stock JJ tubes to get a reference point before tube rolling.  Good luck with that. :)

lol - I know, it can be hard to wait, but it does help in giving you a good idea what the stock JJ sound is (in the LIO), and probably will make you appreciate the NOS roll in.

Quote
I'll also write up my thoughts on the JJ's and then after ~100 hours on the Mullard's and do my very best to explain the differences I hear.

Cool - and in the meantime, hopefully others who have been tube rolling with LIO will chime in.

Later on - I do plan on offering different LIO tubestage modules (e.g. 6SN7) for those who want to play with a different tube family
in their LIO.  The design of the current LIO tubestage is for the 6922 family.  But you know I get requests for others from time to time. :wink:

Vinnie

olegausany

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Re: LIO: tuberolling
« Reply #2 on: 16 Apr 2015, 09:58 pm »
I own a LIO for a month already  :icon_lol: and after 100 hours of burn in I have tried 3 different sets of tubes while using Foobar2000 and J River MC20 on Win7 system and found that 6N1P are the best I have tried so far but since discovering how great is sound while using HQPlayer I have to test other tubes again. I also have tried removing tube module while using older players but it didn't work for me but out of curiosity I will try it again with new player 

Vinnie R.

Re: LIO: tuberolling
« Reply #3 on: 17 Apr 2015, 04:28 pm »
I own a LIO for a month already  :icon_lol: and after 100 hours of burn in I have tried 3 different sets of tubes while using Foobar2000 and J River MC20 on Win7 system and found that 6N1P are the best I have tried so far but since discovering how great is sound while using HQPlayer I have to test other tubes again. I also have tried removing tube module while using older players but it didn't work for me but out of curiosity I will try it again with new player

Hi olegausany,

Thanks for your post, and you have me curious about HQPlayer.  It is available for Mac?

Once you have the LIO Tubestage, it is hard going back to just the RVC.  Keep us posted!

Vinnie

TomS

Re: LIO: tuberolling
« Reply #4 on: 17 Apr 2015, 04:35 pm »
I have a pair of Amperex 6922 PQ gold D-getter 1960 on the way and hope to have some Upscale Audio Telefunken E88CC's soon. Should be fun  :thumb:

Occam

Re: LIO: tuberolling
« Reply #5 on: 17 Apr 2015, 06:36 pm »
....
Similar are the MiniWatt Dario E188CC (green label), but the Dario is a little more detailed.
....
Vinnie

Regardless of the labeling and its color, its a crapshoot trying to discern WTF you've got when it comes to tubes manufactured in one of the many, many Phillips plants located around the world.

My favorite 6dj8/6922 for my EAR Acute III cd player is a green labeled MiniWatt Dario E188CC manufactured in the Surness, France Phillips plant. But I've also bought these with the RT label (RadioTechnique) logo. I've also found these with yellow MiniWatt labels, as well as green MiniWatt Darios manufactured in the Dutch Herleen factory.

The only way to know with any certainty is to look at the etched codes on the tubes. Here is an excellent pdf with a comprehensive explanation of the various codes -
frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB.pdf

Regards and congratulations on your new products,
Paul



brh

  • Jr. Member
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Re: LIO: tuberolling
« Reply #6 on: 18 Apr 2015, 04:14 am »
[…] hope to have some Upscale Audio Telefunken E88CC's soon. Should be fun  :thumb:

That's what my LIO is currently drinking out of… sweet, sweet nectar…

olegausany

  • Jr. Member
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Re: LIO: tuberolling
« Reply #7 on: 18 Apr 2015, 11:48 pm »
Hi olegausany,

Thanks for your post, and you have me curious about HQPlayer.  It is available for Mac?

Once you have the LIO Tubestage, it is hard going back to just the RVC.  Keep us posted!

Vinnie
Yes it's available for Mac too  http://www.signalyst.com/consumer.html
Hopefully you will be happy   :D with HQPlayer as I do and I as well as many others would be able to try LIO at the upcoming NYC meet
Regarding tube rolling I have tried stock tubes and they still give me emphasized bass while driving HD800 with the most recent mod
revision but thankfully Genalex Gold Lion E88CC gold pins are the fix but I have yet to try cyro treated Telefunken E88CC but they
had little difference compared to Genalex with older players   

Vinnie R.

Re: LIO: tuberolling
« Reply #8 on: 20 Apr 2015, 05:05 pm »
That's what my LIO is currently drinking out of… sweet, sweet nectar…

Great tube all around!

 
Hi Occam,

Thanks for your post / info on the MW Dario.


Hi Olegusany,

I hope to try it soon enough, and see you at the NY Headfi meet!

Vinnie

olegausany

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Re: LIO: tuberolling
« Reply #9 on: 21 Apr 2015, 12:32 am »
So as planned I have tried Telefunken E88CC but even with HQPlayer they sound just OK but so far 6N1P as the best for me followed by Genalex Gold Lion E88CC so unless you already own Telefunken before you got LIO try them of course since they might work for you but otherwise I would suggest finding someone you can borrow from and try before buying them from UPSCALE AUDIO. I'm really interested to try Amperex Orange Globes and Buggle Boys as well as 6N23
By the way Vinnie why 6N30 are not compatible? Is it impossible completely or just to difficult to add 6N30 compatibility?

Thanks
Oleg 



Vinnie R.

Re: LIO: tuberolling
« Reply #12 on: 21 Apr 2015, 03:16 am »
By the way Vinnie why 6N30 are not compatible? Is it impossible completely or just to difficult to add 6N30 compatibility?

Thanks
Oleg

Hi Oleg,

NOT IMPOSSIBLE...  I *could* make the LIO tubestage compatible.  But I would need to mod it so it provides higher output current for the filament required by this tube.  And without a switch of some sort, you would not be able to switch back to the 6922 family (which draws less current for the filaments).  The LIO Tubestage's filament supply is a Constant Current design. 

BUT - the other problem is that the 6H30 is too tall, so you wouldn't be able to close the top cover.  :o
A board redesign would be needed to allow those tubes to mount parallel with the board instead of perpendicular. 

AND - the 6H30s throw off a lot more heat than the 6922, so we would also need to test air temperature inside to make sure enough heat
escapes from the vents on the each of the modules' rear panels...

Thanks for your feedback with the 6N1P!

Hi OZT,

Thanks for the link!  It might be helpful for some, but I've found that certain tubes sound different in different circuits.  So the way a tube changes the sound in one component might be different compared to how it changes the sound in another. 

So keep this in mind - and ideally, stick to feedback provided by those who tested with LIO.

And then there is the synergy with the speakers / headphones  :wink:

But all of this keeps things interesting - especially for those who like to tweak!  :singing:

Vinnie

olegausany

  • Jr. Member
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Re: LIO: tuberolling
« Reply #13 on: 21 Apr 2015, 03:25 am »
Hi Oleg,

NOT IMPOSSIBLE...  I *could* make the LIO tubestage compatible.  But I would need to mod it so it provides higher output current for the filament required by this tube.  And without a switch of some sort, you would not be able to switch back to the 6922 family (which draws less current for the filaments).  The LIO Tubestage's filament supply is a Constant Current design. 

BUT - the other problem is that the 6H30 is too tall, so you wouldn't be able to close the top cover.  :o
A board redesign would be needed to allow those tubes to mount parallel with the board instead of perpendicular. 

AND - the 6H30s throw off a lot more heat than the 6922, so we would also need to test air temperature inside to make sure enough heat
escapes from the vents on the each of the modules' rear panels...

Thanks for your feedback with the 6N1P!

Thanks for explanation, it's definitely not worth the hustle

Hi OZT,

Thanks for the link!  It might be helpful for some, but I've found that certain tubes sound different in different circuits.  So the way a tube changes the sound in one component might be different compared to how it changes the sound in another. 

So keep this in mind - and ideally, stick to feedback provided by those who tested with LIO.

And then there is the synergy with the speakers / headphones  :wink:

But all of this keeps things interesting - especially for those who like to tweak!  :singing:

Vinnie
Completely agree

TomS

Re: LIO: tuberolling
« Reply #14 on: 7 May 2015, 07:26 pm »
That's what my LIO is currently drinking out of… sweet, sweet nectar…

After a couple of weeks with the Upscale Telefunkens in place, I completely agree with your description. Look no further, these are fantastic in the LIO. Now, I feel like I need to get a spare pair just in case.

brh

  • Jr. Member
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Re: LIO: tuberolling
« Reply #15 on: 9 May 2015, 02:15 am »
Now, I feel like I need to get a spare pair just in case.

Hmmmmmmmm not a bad idea…  :D

Timbana

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Re: LIO: tuberolling
« Reply #16 on: 21 May 2015, 04:40 am »
I agree with the comments that the Telefunken E88CCs from Upscale Audio are a good choice for the LIO. In fact, I was so taken with them that I was motivated to post my first ever on-line review:

PERFECTO MUNDO!!! 
Posted by Charles Heyborne on 16th May 2015

I bought a pair of platinum grade & cryo treated, for a Vinnie Rossi LIO that I received a few days ago. Have had them burning in for a few days and just did some critical listening for the first time today . . . . Great googly moogly, I've found my new faves!! In the past, I've tended to usually prefer Mullard and Amperex for their added warmth (also bought a pair of each for comparison with the Telefunkens). These Telefunkens are more neutral sounding while still providing just a touch of added warmth, and sounding very natural, balanced, transparent and pure. They push all the right buttons for me; extended top and bottom, excellent soundstaging and image focus . . . and, did I mention natural, transparent and pure? Uncle Kevy knows his tubes and these are among the best!!

No, I'm not a shill for Upscale, just very satisfied with my LIO and upgraded tubes.

brh

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 102
Re: LIO: tuberolling
« Reply #17 on: 23 May 2015, 03:24 am »
I'm in the process of moving, and LIO is probably no longer going to be a desktop amp for me, but a living room/bar amp, and now she'll be powering Audience 2x2s instead of Ones. Not that that's important, but… hey, I always love a little speaker talk ;)

Anyway… great opportunity to do a little tube swappery… I've been running the Telefunken E88CCs, and would universally recommend them! But why not stir the pot…  I have some Siemens CCas that haven't seen much action… Mullard E188CCs… Some 'lesser' 6-volters… Decisions, decisions!

Mitch751

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Re: LIO: tuberolling
« Reply #18 on: 7 Jun 2015, 10:31 am »


Finally reached 100 hours and replaced with these Telefunken E188 CC
Really amazed and sound quality improved significantly.

Mitch751

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  • Posts: 75
Re: LIO: tuberolling
« Reply #19 on: 8 Jun 2015, 04:33 am »
I bought @HK$850 ie US$120 per piece 25 years ago